when is the TRUTH gonna be known....

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Message 733741 - Posted: 2 Apr 2008, 23:29:03 UTC - in response to Message 733736.  

You know I was kidding ... right?

Now I do... ;)

(Would ya please just let me heckle in peace! lol)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 734106 - Posted: 4 Apr 2008, 10:58:39 UTC - in response to Message 733654.  
Last modified: 4 Apr 2008, 11:10:55 UTC


I just wonder if this sort of totally self-absorbed, selfish, ignorant, careless, devil-take-the-hindmost attitude may just hold a grain of the reasoning behind what happened on 11th September a while back?


I'm not an enemy sympathizer...don't care what their reasons are/were.

If you don't care for your fellow men and women, then keep your attitudes to yourself or some other maniac just may attack you physically rather than just verbally.

Yeah, and I might die in a car wreck on my way to work this morning too...but rational people don't let irrational fears (or idle threats as the case may be) ruin their lives.

I pity anyone who betrays such a bigotted set of beliefs. I knew such people existed (remember that our countries got together to get rid of Hitler) but try looking in the mirror some day. Hitler was a Nationalist and so was Mao Zedong. Every dictator throughout history has been a "Nationalist". Nationalism is the single greatest enemy of the family of humankind.

Greetings from one of the untermenschen to a uber being!


Hey, thanks for comparing me to some of the most notorious figures in history...but as it turns out, I'm just a simple country boy, with no more influence over our political system than the one vote every other American enjoys...you might have noticed the lack of mushroom clouds hanging over the middle east.

Interesting that Paul brought "forgetting history" into the conversation because history clearly shows that nuclear strikes are quite effective at demoralizing the enemy, ending wars, and transforming former enemies into current allies...did I forget anything? :)


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Message 734110 - Posted: 4 Apr 2008, 11:19:23 UTC - in response to Message 734106.  


I just wonder if this sort of totally self-absorbed, selfish, ignorant, careless, devil-take-the-hindmost attitude may just hold a grain of the reasoning behind what happened on 11th September a while back?


I'm not an enemy sympathizer...don't care what their reasons are/were.

If you don't care for your fellow men and women, then keep your attitudes to yourself or some other maniac just may attack you physically rather than just verbally.

Yeah, and I might die in a car wreck on my way to work this morning too...but rational people don't let irrational fears (or idle threats as the case may be) ruin their lives.

I pity anyone who betrays such a bigotted set of beliefs. I knew such people existed (remember that our countries got together to get rid of Hitler) but try looking in the mirror some day. Hitler was a Nationalist and so was Mao Zedong. Every dictator throughout history has been a "Nationalist". Nationalism is the single greatest enemy of the family of humankind.

Greetings from one of the untermenschen to a uber being!


Hey, thanks for comparing me to some of the most notorious figures in history...but as it turns out, I'm just a simple country boy, with no more influence over our political system than the one vote every other American enjoys...you might have noticed the lack of mushroom clouds hanging over the middle east.

Interesting that Paul brought "forgetting history" into the conversation because history clearly shows that nuclear strikes are quite effective at demoralizing the enemy, ending wars, and transforming former enemies into current allies...did I forget anything? :)


I died in a car wreck on the way home from work today........
So I no longer have to defend anything I say here......LOL.

"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

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Message 734120 - Posted: 4 Apr 2008, 11:49:58 UTC - in response to Message 734106.  

nuclear strikes are quite effective at demoralizing the enemy

Have we all figured out who is in charge down here on planet earth yet? ;)

(Hint: He likes to carry around a pitchfork to offset the weight of his horns.)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 734190 - Posted: 4 Apr 2008, 14:45:06 UTC - in response to Message 734106.  

Interesting that Paul brought "forgetting history" into the conversation because history clearly shows that nuclear strikes are quite effective at demoralizing the enemy, ending wars, and transforming former enemies into current allies...did I forget anything? :)

Actually, if you read your history carefully, you would have noted that the use of nuclear weapons did nothing to change anyones mind. Furthermore, it did not demoralize the Japanese people nor their military.

ANd what changed the Japanese people from enemy into an ally had everything to do with how we treated our former enemy. It had nothing to do with the way we defeated them.

And, as the only country in the world that has used nuclear weapons, why is it some thing to be proud of?

When did mass murder in violation of the so-called "rules of land warfare" become a bragging right?

The only reason that the Japanese and German politicians and military leaders were not charged with certain crimes at their various post-war trials was because we, as a country, had violated them even more egregiously.

It is only an accident of history that the delivery of the declaration of war was delayed and thus turned the attack on Pearl Harbor into a "dastardly attack".

Far fewer people died in 9/11 than in our invasion of Iraq ... oh, I forget, they are Iraqi, so they don't count ... more people die in Iraq/Afghanistan, as a result of our mistakes each year ... oh, I forgot, they are not American, so they don't count ...

Pretending that other people are not human, and that they and their suffering do not count is, and never has been, the way to create an ally ... or a friend ...
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Message 734212 - Posted: 4 Apr 2008, 15:28:38 UTC - in response to Message 734190.  
Last modified: 4 Apr 2008, 15:37:54 UTC

Interesting that Paul brought "forgetting history" into the conversation because history clearly shows that nuclear strikes are quite effective at demoralizing the enemy, ending wars, and transforming former enemies into current allies...did I forget anything? :)

Actually, if you read your history carefully, you would have noted that the use of nuclear weapons did nothing to change anyones mind. Furthermore, it did not demoralize the Japanese people nor their military.


Gee, I guess I'm the one who misunderstands the phrase "unconditional surrender" then, huh? and I quote: "The enemy now possesses a new and terrible weapon with the power to destroy many innocent lives and do incalculable damage".

ANd what changed the Japanese people from enemy into an ally had everything to do with how we treated our former enemy. It had nothing to do with the way we defeated them.

Chicken or the egg. One could easily conclude that the Japanese were unwilling to compromise before we flexed our military might. Ever notice how much in common Kamikaze's and suicide bombers have in common?

And, as the only country in the world that has used nuclear weapons, why is it some thing to be proud of?

Life is a competition, if you see nothing to be proud of in victory, then blame your parents, not your country.

When did mass murder in violation of the so-called "rules of land warfare" become a bragging right?

Laughing Out Loud....you hear the one about the guy who brought a knife to a gun fight? He got shot while complaining about the rules...

The only reason that the Japanese and German politicians and military leaders were not charged with certain crimes at their various post-war trials was because we, as a country, had violated them even more egregiously.


Actually it was because the average soldier was simply following orders rather than making his own decisions...but you have every right to distort history as you see fit, but that certainly doesn't mean intelligent people will believe your propaganda.

It is only an accident of history that the delivery of the declaration of war was delayed and thus turned the attack on Pearl Harbor into a "dastardly attack".


How convenient.

Far fewer people died in 9/11 than in our invasion of Iraq ... oh, I forget, they are Iraqi, so they don't count ... more people die in Iraq/Afghanistan, as a result of our mistakes each year ... oh, I forgot, they are not American, so they don't count ...


At least you're starting to pay attention rather than asking me to care about the enemy. That's your job, sympathizer.

Pretending that other people are not human, and that they and their suffering do not count is, and never has been, the way to create an ally ... or a friend ...


Laughing out loud....what part of my post made you think I was interested in gaining their allegiance rather than destroying their ability to wage war?


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Message 734292 - Posted: 4 Apr 2008, 18:54:03 UTC - in response to Message 734212.  
Last modified: 4 Apr 2008, 18:54:34 UTC

Actually it was because the average soldier was simply following orders rather than making his own decisions...

Robots! ;)

(At least now we can agree on SOMETHING!)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 734317 - Posted: 4 Apr 2008, 19:46:46 UTC - in response to Message 734292.  

Actually it was because the average soldier was simply following orders rather than making his own decisions...

Robots! ;)

(At least now we can agree on SOMETHING!)


Didn't some guy get deported not all that long ago for being a former member of the SS?

I do find myself wondering though, how we make the jump from ET to WMD to WWII...
Maybe it's evidence of a conspiracy to distract us from the ET issue?

;)
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Message 734399 - Posted: 4 Apr 2008, 21:30:21 UTC

BrainSmashR,

The phrase "unconditional Surrender" was a blunder and it extended the war, in particularly in the Pacific theater. And yes, we also used up our whole arsenal of weapons and had they called our bluff, we were months away from making enough fissile material to make another weapon. Also, standard fire bombing attacks in about 10 cases in Japan alone killed more people in each case ...

And yes, suicide bombers have much in common. A very effective weapon... you create both a martyr and damage your enemy at the same time. So, the smart thing to do is to not induce your adversary the incentive to use this weapon.

Victory? It depends on how you measure it. Did we "win" the military actions? In most cases yes. Again, if you look at the battles of WWII in the pacific we lost virtually every surface action against the Japanese navy. The problem for them was they could not afford the pyrrhic victories. They won the battles and we won the war and lost the peace ... if you watched where our jobs went in later years ...

So, I should beat my wife because life is a competition? Why not cooperate where we both can win? Same thing with some of our so-called enemies. If we could stop calling people and countries names and look for places to cooperate, who knows where we could be. As one person once said to me, if we only spent a tenth of what we spend on war on peace, where could be be?

Ahem, we were the champions of the rules of land warfare. Well, until the latest administration. Which means our soldiers are going to be paying for the hubris of this administration for decades if not centuries to come. NOw that water-boarding is "legal" IAW this administration we can no longer complain that it is torture when it is applied to our soldiers.

ANd it was not the average soldier I had in mind. Ordering attacks against civilian populations is, and has been for a long time a war crime. When we firebombed or area bombed cities we were committing a war crime. Not only those that obeyed the orders, but those that issued them. And, that is not propaganda. We did indiscriminately attack civilian populations and we did it as a matter of policy. And it is a war crime. Still.

You may be proud to stand on a pile of bodies that mostly belong to innocents. But, in your glorifying how wonderful it is ... well, you lose the moral authority to complain about the piles of innocent american bodies piled up by someone else ...

As far as the mistake the Japanese made it was a matter of timing. Had they delivered the declaration ON TIME, the attack would have been "legal" and not a "sneak attack". Again, a bit of historical trivia that is still important to recall because it makes a large difference in our moral outrage.

For almost all my posts I have been talking about the average person in these so-called enemy countries that you are so delighted that you can destroy at will without regard to how many innocents are killed ... of course we pretend that "collateral damage" does not mean someone's mother, father or brother ... and may give rise to another person willing to attack back ...

And, unless you kill them all, you may need to look up the word genocide, you can never destroy the ability to resist.

As far as ET, I know why he likes to watch the contests ... of course that is from some rather old SF ...
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Message 734417 - Posted: 4 Apr 2008, 22:02:06 UTC - in response to Message 734399.  
Last modified: 4 Apr 2008, 22:06:11 UTC

BrainSmashR,

The phrase "unconditional Surrender" was a blunder and it extended the war, in particularly in the Pacific theater. And yes, we also used up our whole arsenal of weapons and had they called our bluff, we were months away from making enough fissile material to make another weapon. Also, standard fire bombing attacks in about 10 cases in Japan alone killed more people in each case ...

If if's and but's were candies and nuts, we'd all have a wonderful Christmas. Some of us understand what our country and it's military are capable of...others deem it "blunders and bluffs" and obviously just consider the United States lucky in spite of 200+ years of kicking-ass

And yes, suicide bombers have much in common. A very effective weapon... you create both a martyr and damage your enemy at the same time. So, the smart thing to do is to not induce your adversary the incentive to use this weapon.

"Now I want you to remember that no (expletive deleted) ever won a war by dying for his country. You win it by making the other poor dumb (expletive deleted) die for his country."

Victory? It depends on how you measure it. Did we "win" the military actions? In most cases yes. Again, if you look at the battles of WWII in the pacific we lost virtually every surface action against the Japanese navy. The problem for them was they could not afford the pyrrhic victories. They won the battles and we won the war and lost the peace ... if you watched where our jobs went in later years ...

Well most people measure military victory as being able to speak the language of their country of origin as opposed to that of the invading military force. As far as jobs going overseas, one of the downfalls of capitalism. If I can get the job done for half the cost, that means higher profits for me. Not a perfect system, but neither is communism, and I dang sure know which one I prefer.

So, I should beat my wife because life is a competition? Why not cooperate where we both can win? Same thing with some of our so-called enemies. If we could stop calling people and countries names and look for places to cooperate, who knows where we could be. As one person once said to me, if we only spent a tenth of what we spend on war on peace, where could be be?


Because we don't negotiate with terrorists, or anyone else who utilizes fear as a means of coercion.

Your wife is family and you're supposed to take care of your family...what would you do if I was beating her?

Ahem, we were the champions of the rules of land warfare. Well, until the latest administration. Which means our soldiers are going to be paying for the hubris of this administration for decades if not centuries to come. NOw that water-boarding is "legal" IAW this administration we can no longer complain that it is torture when it is applied to our soldiers.

We're still the champions of war...there's just to many liberal pansies out there, like yourself, who won't allow us to destroy the enemy and his ability to wage war.

ANd it was not the average soldier I had in mind. Ordering attacks against civilian populations is, and has been for a long time a war crime. When we firebombed or area bombed cities we were committing a war crime. Not only those that obeyed the orders, but those that issued them. And, that is not propaganda. We did indiscriminately attack civilian populations and we did it as a matter of policy. And it is a war crime. Still.

As I implied early, you're going to get shot if you spend more time crying about the actions of your enemy than you do eliminating the threat.

You may be proud to stand on a pile of bodies that mostly belong to innocents. But, in your glorifying how wonderful it is ... well, you lose the moral authority to complain about the piles of innocent american bodies piled up by someone else ...


Care to show me where I've complained or claimed to hold the moral authority? My stance is pull the troops out and turn the middle east into a giant radioactive night light...not watch more Americans die in spite of our ability to wage war without putting troops on foreign soil

As far as the mistake the Japanese made it was a matter of timing. Had they delivered the declaration ON TIME, the attack would have been "legal" and not a "sneak attack". Again, a bit of historical trivia that is still important to recall because it makes a large difference in our moral outrage.


Again, how convenient

For almost all my posts I have been talking about the average person in these so-called enemy countries that you are so delighted that you can destroy at will without regard to how many innocents are killed ... of course we pretend that "collateral damage" does not mean someone's mother, father or brother ... and may give rise to another person willing to attack back ...


Hard for anyone to "rise up" when they're all dead

And, unless you kill them all, you may need to look up the word genocide, you can never destroy the ability to resist.


Well at least you're listening again.


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Message 734430 - Posted: 4 Apr 2008, 22:22:58 UTC

And the battle between good and evil rages on... ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 734433 - Posted: 4 Apr 2008, 22:23:27 UTC

We're still the champions of war...there's just to many liberal pansies out there, like yourself, who won't allow us to destroy the enemy and his ability to wage war.

First of all, you have no idea of what I really believe. Nor how well or not I know about our military, or not, by personal experience and study.

Nor if I am a pansy or not.

And, if you had read carefully, I don't think I ever discussed or took the position that engaging a legitimate enemy and destroying their ability to wage war is something I am against. I am discussing the innocents, like your wife or children that happens to be standing by a target, when that target is attacked.

Mostly my curiosity was raised to see if yours was a reasoned position based on an understanding of history or not.

The question about you and your spouse is that you seem to think violence and conflict is the "natural order" and I was wondering where you draw the line.

Anyway, I have my answers. You have my permission to declare victory ...


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Message 734532 - Posted: 5 Apr 2008, 3:23:08 UTC
Last modified: 5 Apr 2008, 3:31:50 UTC

I guess BrainSmashR would agree with Ted Turner that we should just get rid of 95% of the world's population. Then we wouldn't have to worry about the boogey man getting us. Just kill everyone, but me of course.

Turner also said we'd become cannibals from global warming. I'm sharpening my choppers right now.
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Message 734606 - Posted: 5 Apr 2008, 9:31:04 UTC - in response to Message 734417.  
Last modified: 5 Apr 2008, 9:36:49 UTC

Some of us understand what our country and it's military are capable of...


Lately I've seen a picture looking like those recruiting posters, reading:

Join the Army! Travel to foreign countries! Meet exotic people with interesting cultures - and KILL them!

What is your country, undercut by the military-industrial complex, capable of? At least they are obviously incapable of peaceful, cooperative, diplomatic politics.
Have they never heard of the Asian wisdom that the best fight is the one that doesn't ever happen?
There are a thousand ways to end a conflict in peace, but your country sends out military forces and makes a conflict become a war by killing innocent civilians, and when it reaches the edge to become a world war, they send even more military forces intending to end this war by killing even more innocent civilians.
The real war criminals sit in the White House and in the Pentagon, and they never are forced to see their sons and daughters, brother and sisters returning in bodybags or as cripples or mental wrecks!
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Message 734634 - Posted: 5 Apr 2008, 11:41:52 UTC - in response to Message 734433.  
Last modified: 5 Apr 2008, 12:09:26 UTC

We're still the champions of war...there's just to many liberal pansies out there, like yourself, who won't allow us to destroy the enemy and his ability to wage war.

First of all, you have no idea of what I really believe. Nor how well or not I know about our military, or not, by personal experience and study.

Nor if I am a pansy or not.

And, if you had read carefully, I don't think I ever discussed or took the position that engaging a legitimate enemy and destroying their ability to wage war is something I am against.


"Legitimate enemy" that's what we in the south like to refer to as a loophole. After 30+ years of attacks on western culture by the middle east, one has to wonder what you consider a legitimate threat...

I am discussing the innocents, like your wife or children that happens to be standing by a target, when that target is attacked.

Interestingly enough, I have no friends or family in the middle east, none that follow the radical Muslim teachings, and none that condone criminal activity or associate with known criminals. Not my fault the "alleged innocents" have a lower set of morals and consider suicide bombers to be martyrs, not my fault their religion teaches them that murder is the road to salvation, not my fault the enemy cowers among civilian populations.

Simply put, if Daddy terrorist is taking sniper shots at our troops from the second story bedroom window, then I don't consider his wife and children downstairs to be "innocents" or hostages being held against their will or anything less than an accomplice guilty of harboring a fugitive and obstructing justice.

Mostly my curiosity was raised to see if yours was a reasoned position based on an understanding of history or not.

The question about you and your spouse is that you seem to think violence and conflict is the "natural order" and I was wondering where you draw the line.

Anyway, I have my answers. You have my permission to declare victory ...



I draw the line at attacking my country and/or it's citizens and/or our allies. AFTER that point, diplomacy isn't an option.


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Message 734637 - Posted: 5 Apr 2008, 11:48:09 UTC - in response to Message 734606.  

Some of us understand what our country and it's military are capable of...


Lately I've seen a picture looking like those recruiting posters, reading:

Join the Army! Travel to foreign countries! Meet exotic people with interesting cultures - and KILL them!

What is your country, undercut by the military-industrial complex, capable of? At least they are obviously incapable of peaceful, cooperative, diplomatic politics.


Guess what? That's not the job of the military.

Have they never heard of the Asian wisdom that the best fight is the one that doesn't ever happen?

Have you heard the one where disagreeing with the foreign policies of a nation doesn't give you the right to intentionally and habitually target their civilian populations?

There are a thousand ways to end a conflict in peace, but your country sends out military forces and makes a conflict become a war by killing innocent civilians, and when it reaches the edge to become a world war, they send even more military forces intending to end this war by killing even more innocent civilians.


As I stated earlier, diplomacy isn't an option in my book AFTER the fact.

The real war criminals sit in the White House and in the Pentagon, and they never are forced to see their sons and daughters, brother and sisters returning in bodybags or as cripples or mental wrecks!


Our military is 100% volunteer. Sing your sad little song to someone who doesn't understand that every single member of the US military enlisted of their own freewill.


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Message 734649 - Posted: 5 Apr 2008, 12:25:23 UTC - in response to Message 734637.  

every single member of the US military enlisted of their own freewill.

Odd that our elected leaders sons and daughters don't share the same kind of 'patriotism'... ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 734654 - Posted: 5 Apr 2008, 12:32:24 UTC - in response to Message 734649.  

every single member of the US military enlisted of their own freewill.

Odd that our elected leaders sons and daughters don't share the same kind of 'patriotism'... ;)

Most of our current crop of politicians are not patriots in the true sense of the word.......


"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

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Message 734720 - Posted: 5 Apr 2008, 14:52:01 UTC

What exactly is "odd" about choosing a career that comes with better pay, benefits, and safety than military service?







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Message 734727 - Posted: 5 Apr 2008, 15:01:19 UTC - in response to Message 734637.  

What is your country, undercut by the military-industrial complex, capable of? At least they are obviously incapable of peaceful, cooperative, diplomatic politics.


Guess what? That's not the job of the military.


You may not realise it but you are a very sad, unhappy man. Whether you want it or not I shall pray for you and for your soul. I suspect you may have had a very unhappy childhood or some other bad physical or psychological event or events that have made you this way and counselling could well help. I mean this sincerely and not as some sort of insult.

Unless, as in the case of Hitler, a country is gearing up for deliberate pre-emptive war, the purpose of armed forces is to help maintain peace and act as a branch of the diplomatic service. Please do not be fooled by politicians who say you cannot negotiate with or talk to "terrorists". They all do it and they all do it all the time. Only closed minds prefer war-war to jaw-jaw. Also don't forget that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

The ancient Jewish doctrine of "an eye for an eye; a tooth for a tooth" was actually a doctrine of restraint not an instruction to take punitive action. You might care to learn to "turn the other cheek": just one superb doctrine from another fine Jewish teacher!


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