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![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 7 Apr 02 Posts: 1772 Credit: 384,573 RAC: 0 ![]() |
Vivid imaginations do not equal intelligence. Actually farmers plant seeds because they KNOW how agriculture works due to centuries of practice by farmers who preceded them...not because they "imagine" it would be a good idea. ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 29 Sep 06 Posts: 6418 Credit: 8,893 RAC: 0 ![]() |
Vivid imaginations do not equal intelligence. They know how it's supposed to work - and before they tried it themselves they don't know if (depending of weather, soil quality, watering, etc.) it will work out on their own fields. But they hope, they believe, they imagine that they will have success too, so they try. Even experienced farmers can be 100% sure if they succeed due to the weather or other disturbances: but they imagine they will have at least as much fruit as last year no matter what, so they continue. Account frozen... |
Tom Haley ![]() Send message Joined: 3 Jul 99 Posts: 80 Credit: 1,132,917 RAC: 0 ![]() |
The Vietnam War presented the United States military courts with more cases of the "I was only following orders" defense than any previous conflict. The decisions during these cases reaffirmed that following manifestly illegal orders is not a viable defense from criminal prosecution. In United States v. Keenan, the accused (Keenan) was found guilty of murder after he obeyed in order to shoot and kill an elderly Vietnamese citizen. The Court of Military Appeals held that "the justification for acts done pursuant to orders does not exist if the order was of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal." If you have ordinary sense, you can not obey a patently UNLAWFUL order. If at any time after the fact you become to believe that you were given an order that was unlawful, you have a duty to report it. Shooting your own men because they failed to follow a lawful order even in combat is pretty much a movie thing. Even if it was recorded on video that the persons disobediance was putting the entire unit in immenent danger you would have to come up with a good reason why that person couldn't have been arrested and turned over for trial. I guarantee you would be before a court martial. If you think anyone can do anything on a battlefield or war zone without worrying about the consequences please read the article at: http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/loac.htm Man - a creature made at the end of the week's work when God was tired. - Mark Twain |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 29 Sep 06 Posts: 6418 Credit: 8,893 RAC: 0 ![]() |
The Vietnam War presented the United States military courts with more cases of the "I was only following orders" defense than any previous conflict. The decisions during these cases reaffirmed that following manifestly illegal orders is not a viable defense from criminal prosecution. In United States v. Keenan, the accused (Keenan) was found guilty of murder after he obeyed in order to shoot and kill an elderly Vietnamese citizen. Well, I only read about how it is in the US. I never served in any US or even NATO military unit, it was the East German NVA where I served back then. But I do know of several armies where deserters and people who refused to obey orders in war or even in "situations of heightened security" (see the Monday demonstrations in East Germany in '89 or the TianNanMen massacre in China as examples) have been killed by their superiors, in a kind of "prosecutor-judge-and-executer-all-at-once" way. I saw how Soviet deserters in East Germany were treated during the Cold War, and I learned how people were treated in the Army I served in, who deserted or refused to obey orders even if the order was unlawful. I also read a lot how such people were treated elsewhere, and that made me hate armies even more, as being places of inhumanity and general insanity. To me, the entire military industry worldwide, as well as all those armies, are as necessary as a hole in the head. But I suppose we're getting way off-topic anyway. /Edit/ See also Punitive Article 85 (c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.†And Article 90 Article 90â€â€Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer Account frozen... |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 2 Jan 08 Posts: 593 Credit: 68,282 RAC: 0 ![]() |
The Vietnam War presented the United States military courts with more cases of the "I was only following orders" defense than any previous conflict. The decisions during these cases reaffirmed that following manifestly illegal orders is not a viable defense from criminal prosecution. In United States v. Keenan, the accused (Keenan) was found guilty of murder after he obeyed in order to shoot and kill an elderly Vietnamese citizen. Righteousness does's not command the lion share of judiciary. Is that a firm testiment of weakness or the race... |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 21 Nov 03 Posts: 4793 Credit: 26,029 RAC: 0 |
the "I was only following orders" defense By the sound of your post, I'm guessing that you have NEVER said 'no' to a superior or 'ratted' on anothers misdeeds... I don't care what the 'law' says, there are far worse punishments in life for doing the right thing than there are 'legal' punishments for doing the wrong thing... ;) (Let me paint you a picture: It's your word against the entire platoon!) ![]() |
Tom Haley ![]() Send message Joined: 3 Jul 99 Posts: 80 Credit: 1,132,917 RAC: 0 ![]() |
135 people have been executed by the Army since 1916 (Source: National Law Journal, 4/5/99) of these 7 were Germans convicted of war crimes. Date of last military execution On April 13, 1961, U.S. Army Private John A. Bennett was hanged after being convicted of rape and attempted murder. The last execution by the US for desertion was in World War 2. The last execution by the US for Disobeying an order was a corporal, convicted while serving in the "West Pacific" in January 1947. Considering during that time the US was involved in two world wars, Korea, and Vietnam the death penalty was used sparingly. In the US military no one is "above the law", I can't speak for the armed forces of other countries. Man - a creature made at the end of the week's work when God was tired. - Mark Twain |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 2 Jan 08 Posts: 593 Credit: 68,282 RAC: 0 ![]() |
Perhaps treason would be a better crime terminology. |
Tom Haley ![]() Send message Joined: 3 Jul 99 Posts: 80 Credit: 1,132,917 RAC: 0 ![]() |
You are incorrect in your assumption Jeffrey. I have "ratted" on more than several occasions on both officers and enlisted personnel. I have never served in a unit where a "platoon" would look the other way. As a practical matter how would your hypothetical "platoon" behave if they were witness to a felony? They would all be quiet? Not one would have feelings of guilt or outrage? No one would tell their wife? Would no one report it out of fear that they would go to jail themselves? It would be a pretty sorry platoon, the officers would have to turn a blind eye to everything lest someone blackmail them. There would be no discipline at all nor morale. Just a constant fear of getting caught. And your "platoon" can't keep everyone in line as there are transfers constantly, people who's enlistments has run out, or are rotated to other units due to promotions etc.. How would you control someone that has been transfered to another post? I don't know about anyone elses military but trying to get any three americans to agree about anything much less covering up a felony is pretty problematic. The jails are full of folks that thought their buddies wouldn't tell. And I am sorry you feel that way about life, but I have never worried about what doing the right thing to do would do to me in military or civilian life. And no consequences could deter me from being a man as I have to look at myself in a mirror every day and stand before my god on judgement day. Man - a creature made at the end of the week's work when God was tired. - Mark Twain |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 21 Nov 03 Posts: 4793 Credit: 26,029 RAC: 0 |
You are incorrect in your assumption Jeffrey. And you underestimate the power of persuasion... But keep the 'sound bytes' coming, they're quite entertaining... ;) ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 25 May 99 Posts: 944 Credit: 52,956,491 RAC: 67 ![]() ![]() |
I have long believed in the concept of giving liberals enough rope to hang themselves....and I've yet to be disappointed with the outcome... Sounds like you know all about lynching. Did you forget the Nazis that were hung after World War II? Just how Liberal were they in your eyes? Much too soft on other races, the disabled, mentally ill and non-Nazis were they? Only obeying orders? It was after that war that the sane, the sensible world, the representatives of the Liberal Democracies, decided that those responsible for crimes in wartime can be punished for them. Whether or not there were war criminals in all participating armies is a whole different matter. Beliefs based on hate were effectively outlawed and quite right too. Give an extremist enough rope and he'll hang in the end. ![]() ![]() |
Tom Haley ![]() Send message Joined: 3 Jul 99 Posts: 80 Credit: 1,132,917 RAC: 0 ![]() |
Jeffrey, as I have said before, I wouldn't stay where you are, I would move as fast as I could to Australia or Canada. As far as where I live, attempting to "pursuade" through intimidation would eventually get you killed. Man - a creature made at the end of the week's work when God was tired. - Mark Twain |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 7 Apr 02 Posts: 1772 Credit: 384,573 RAC: 0 ![]() |
You seems to be confusing imagination with hope. Farmers already know what soil/weather conditions and time of the year to plant in order to produce the highest yield,likewise, NO amount of imagination will produce apples orchards in Antarctica. As for your implication that it's all guess work, perhaps you didn't know the premier issue of The Old Farmers Almanac was published in 1792 during George Washington's first term as President. Based on his observations, Thomas used a complex series of natural cycles to devise a secret weather forecasting formula, which brought uncannily accurate results, traditionally said to be 80 percent accurate. (Even today, his formula is kept safely tucked away in a black tin box at the Almanac offices in Dublin, New Hampshire.) Now I ask you, how can you say this is based on hope and imagination when the information in this book is more than 200 years old and still said to be 80% accurate? It's not that complicated, and you ain't gotta believe, but when properly executed, the scientific method works, and no amount of ignorance on your part will ever change that. ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 7 Apr 02 Posts: 1772 Credit: 384,573 RAC: 0 ![]() |
I have long believed in the concept of giving liberals enough rope to hang themselves....and I've yet to be disappointed with the outcome... Seems to me that, like users before you, you've jumped into the middle of a conversation without bothering to find out (or understand as the case may be) the subject(s) being discussed. "Giving someone enough rope to hang themselves" is a cliche used to imply that said individuals words or actions have or will place them in a less than ideal situation and has absolutely NOTHING to do with someone actually being hung. In this particular instance I was speaking of Conspiracyman's claims that he witnessed "atrocities" committed by soldiers in Iraq and Tom pointing out that CM's lack of action constitutes a crime. Simply put, CM was given enough rope to show that he is either a criminal or a liar. Perhaps instead of praying for my soul, you should be praying for a little common sense. ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 7 Apr 02 Posts: 1772 Credit: 384,573 RAC: 0 ![]() |
Well, I only read about how it is in the US. I never served in any US or even NATO military unit, it was the East German NVA where I served back then. Perhaps one day you will learn two things about the world: A) We don't do things over here like they are done in Germany. B) You can't believe everything you read, ESPECIALLY when your opinion is already biased and you're looking specifically for material which supports that preconceived notion. ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 25 May 99 Posts: 944 Credit: 52,956,491 RAC: 67 ![]() ![]() |
Perhaps instead of praying for my soul, you should be praying for a little common sense. Interesting that you are more concerned about my use of a common phrase than my suggestions about your attitude towards arbitrary punishment without the benefit of justice. Strange fruit indeed. Don't bother counting the bodies. ![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 29 Sep 06 Posts: 6418 Credit: 8,893 RAC: 0 ![]() |
Correction: Have been done, and East Germany - Actually here in West Germany they try to do thinks just as they are done in the States, so you actually do things how they are done (copied) in Germany :PWell, I only read about how it is in the US. I never served in any US or even NATO military unit, it was the East German NVA where I served back then. B) You can't believe everything you read, ESPECIALLY when your opinion is already biased and you're looking specifically for material which supports that preconceived notion.Sure - but I'm not biased about new topics, first I search information (on several sources), then I make my opinion. Btw: the quotes I distributed in Message 735871 are quoted from articles of the UCMJ, which is federal US law, hence supposed to be valid information to base an opinion about it. There is also an article I've found before only in laws of military dictatorships: Article 99 Well - this means imho that the most human, most courageous, most righteous people are likely to be punished, even by death. btw: I still don't get why blind cowardly obediance of the superiors' orders is rewarded in armies everywhere in the world, while people who boldly stand up for their convictions and refuse to do silly things (like aiming their guns at "terrorists in disguise", or "defending" camps that don't even are inside the own country's borders) are punished. Account frozen... |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 7 Apr 02 Posts: 1772 Credit: 384,573 RAC: 0 ![]() |
Perhaps instead of praying for my soul, you should be praying for a little common sense. That would be because your opinions are quite irrelevant when it comes to my or my family's day-to-day activities. Common sense would have clued you in to that fact. ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 7 Apr 02 Posts: 1772 Credit: 384,573 RAC: 0 ![]() |
Correction: Have been done, and East Germany - Actually here in West Germany they try to do thinks just as they are done in the States, so you actually do things how they are done (copied) in Germany :PWell, I only read about how it is in the US. I never served in any US or even NATO military unit, it was the East German NVA where I served back then. [yoda] Do or do not, there is no try [/yoda]
Actually that's military law, not federal law, there IS a difference. Furthermore, death is also a penalty for murder under federal law, but that doesn't make it the norm in either case.
Then you apparently don't understand the concept of duty.
As I stated above, you apparently don't understand the concept of duty ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 2 Jan 08 Posts: 593 Credit: 68,282 RAC: 0 ![]() |
Chemical reaction and status's of humans is what you must consider. Short temper, placid, volatile, pacifist, cumbersum, zany, queer, quirky, drole, chirpy, humane. Some people have just been made like that. |
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