I think it is a problem with the written word..

Naw, I don't think so... The problem is definitely with people... ;)

(Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

I think it is a problem with the written word..

Naw, I don't think so... The problem is definitely with people... ;)

(Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me)

It is with both.

Because of the lack of body language it is hard to understand what people are saying when it is only the typed characters. Emoticons in theory help ... but they really don't.

That is what the original poster was trying to "say".

It is a problem I get to struggle with because I tend to say what I mean in almost all circumstances and that is not a "popular" or approved mechanism for doing things.

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... Are we be willing to Cop our own selves, individually?

Because that's what it takes.

I thought that was called "Peer Pressure" from whatever group you are trying to interact with.

The "Police" to do whatever "Policing" should only be called when someone gets to be so far out of line that gentle persuasion or morals are not enough.


(Aside: "Policing" is the term used in networking to describe deleting 'excess data packets' that exceed a 'permitted' bandwidth. TCP will eventuall get the deleted data packets resent. However, I'm sure a better solution would be to instead just increase the latency for the ACK packets...)

Cheers,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... Are we be willing to Cop our own selves, individually?

Because that's what it takes.

I thought that was called "Peer Pressure" from whatever group you are trying to interact with.

The "Police" to do whatever "Policing" should only be called when someone gets to be so far out of line that gentle persuasion or morals are not enough.


(Aside: "Policing" is the term used in networking to describe deleting 'excess data packets' that exceed a 'permitted' bandwidth. TCP will eventuall get the deleted data packets resent. However, I'm sure a better solution would be to instead just increase the latency for the ACK packets...)

Cheers,
Martin

People need to be given a chance to respond first of all to peer pressure or even 'policing'. It is called lead time when a person authority wants someone to change something or obey and you actually give them clear warning and time to respond. It has to be a reasonable time..for example..if you ask someone to do something in the middle of what is their night they are unlikely to do so. This can either be interpreted as wilful disobedience or that they are asleep. A logical and reasonable person would assume the latter.

However...there should also be time given for the peer group to point out that something said is unacceptable. Often you would find that the forum police would have no need to step in at all.

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Account frozen...

It's funny how some of the worst offenders of attempted 'thought policing', intimidation, lies, character assassination, thread hijacking are the ones right here criticizing it.

;-) <-----winky, so it makes it all A-Okay.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

... Are we be willing to Cop our own selves, individually?

Because that's what it takes.

I thought that was called "Peer Pressure" from whatever group you are trying to interact with.

The "Police" to do whatever "Policing" should only be called when someone gets to be so far out of line that gentle persuasion or morals are not enough.


(Aside: "Policing" is the term used in networking to describe deleting 'excess data packets' that exceed a 'permitted' bandwidth. TCP will eventuall get the deleted data packets resent. However, I'm sure a better solution would be to instead just increase the latency for the ACK packets...)

Cheers,
Martin

Hi Martin! :]]


Looking at how the thread has been proceeding, I see that my words "to Cop our own selves, individually" was an ill-chosen phrase. What I meant by it was the mature Self-discipline of behaving civilly towards others, even those we don't like. If that was the general way that we went about posting, fewer people would even need Peer Pressure, let alone moderating.

And for those that refuse to be civil? An occasional Poll (democratic vote) to permanently Ostracise a member might be the best way of getting rid of warring people.

I think that Es has also made an interesting suggestion about allowing time for Peer Pressure to work before rushing to policing by moderators.



Thanks for that explanation of what "Policing" technically means in networking. :]]


Bests,


Beets

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Hi Martin! :]]

Looking at how the thread has been proceeding, I see that my words "to Cop our own selves, individually" was an ill-chosen phrase. What I meant by it was the mature Self-discipline of behaving civilly towards others, even those we don't like. If that was the general way that we went about posting, fewer people would even need Peer Pressure, let alone moderating.

And for those that refuse to be civil? An occasional Poll (democratic vote) to permanently Ostracise a member might be the best way of getting rid of warring people.

I think that Es has also made an interesting suggestion about allowing time for Peer Pressure to work before rushing to policing by moderators.

Thanks for that explanation of what "Policing" technically means in networking. :]]

Bests,

Beets

Beethoven, what you have described is the way it was once, a very long time ago. In those days, certain posters were so offensive that the vast majority agreed to "shun" the offender. It did work, but only after a great number of insults, rants and accusations disrupted the boards, often for weeks at a time (a track record of disruptions was required for posters to agree on the shunning). A more efficient means of addressing problems was put in place: admin appointed some of their own to act as moderators, so that problems could be addressed more quickly. While that solved one problem, another arose: the admin types did not spend much time on the boards, and did not respond much more quickly than had the "shun" method. Other tools, like "+/-" buttons to "vote" particular posts off the board, were only marginally effective.

What has seemed to work fairly well is the (present) system of moderators selected from active posters, who could spot problems relatively quickly and respond. The main problem with this has turned out to be personality conflicts that have spawned the creation of groups of intelligent, creative, folks who organized themselves to further their agenda. That's where we are now. It may work, for a while, to go back to what worked in the past, i.e. self policing, but for how long? When a person or group of people feels slighted, as some inevitably will, what will stop them from coming up with some new creative scheme to disrupt the boards in an effort to further their own agenda?

Perhaps I am a pessimist, but I don't think we can return to Eden.

an interesting suggestion about allowing time for Peer Pressure to work

There are those of us who are immune to 'peer pressure'... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

... Are we be willing to Cop our own selves, individually?

Because that's what it takes.

I thought that was called "Peer Pressure" from whatever group you are trying to interact with.

The "Police" to do whatever "Policing" should only be called when someone gets to be so far out of line that gentle persuasion or morals are not enough.


(Aside: "Policing" is the term used in networking to describe deleting 'excess data packets' that exceed a 'permitted' bandwidth. TCP will eventuall get the deleted data packets resent. However, I'm sure a better solution would be to instead just increase the latency for the ACK packets...)

Cheers,
Martin

Hi Martin! :]]


Looking at how the thread has been proceeding, I see that my words "to Cop our own selves, individually" was an ill-chosen phrase. What I meant by it was the mature Self-discipline of behaving civilly towards others, even those we don't like. If that was the general way that we went about posting, fewer people would even need Peer Pressure, let alone moderating.

And for those that refuse to be civil? An occasional Poll (democratic vote) to permanently Ostracise a member might be the best way of getting rid of warring people.

I think that Es has also made an interesting suggestion about allowing time for Peer Pressure to work before rushing to policing by moderators.



Thanks for that explanation of what "Policing" technically means in networking. :]]


Bests,


Beets

Funny that you bring up 'Shunning', Beethoven...as 2 years ago you were the one shunned by that sketchy little group. You were the one that created an offsite forum to be a haven for the 'shunned'...and you formed on the SETI Cafe a 'Beethoven's Shunned Cafe'.

Strange how short people's memories are.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Strange how short people's memories are.

Don't I know it !!! ;)

(But what really matters is the ability to put the past where it belongs, behind them.)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

What has seemed to work fairly well is the (present) system of moderators selected from active posters, who could spot problems relatively quickly and respond. The main problem with this has turned out to be personality conflicts that have spawned the creation of groups of intelligent, creative, folks who organized themselves to further their agenda. That's where we are now. It may work, for a while, to go back to what worked in the past, i.e. self policing, but for how long? When a person or group of people feels slighted, as some inevitably will, what will stop them from coming up with some new creative scheme to disrupt the boards in an effort to further their own agenda?

I would agree with that, but would have a different view on who I see the group as being. However..because of the position that those people have managed to get themselves into I am not allowed to say what I think of how they have behaved, even if they, it seems, are allowed to say and do anything they want with impunity.

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Reality Internet Personality

Strange how short people's memories are.

For some things, and yet far far too long for other aspects... Unfortunately, usually to negative effect :-(

(But what really matters is the ability to put the past where it belongs, behind them.)

Very much agreed. People need to and should learn and positively progress for the better.

Very unfortunately, some (often pseudo religious) types seem to harbor grudges and malice from what was assumed to have happened from long in the past.


Some of the more silly conflicts are grudges from what supposedly happened to whomever's great-great-great grandfather/grandmother. Then also, there are the even more silly arguments of many hundreds of years ago supposedly excusing atrocities today and in the future...

All down to mentality and education?

Also a question of how to approach whomever/whatever so as not to incite further abuse?...

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

What has seemed to work fairly well is the (present) system of moderators selected from active posters, who could spot problems relatively quickly and respond. The main problem with this has turned out to be personality conflicts that have spawned the creation of groups of intelligent, creative, folks who organized themselves to further their agenda. That's where we are now. It may work, for a while, to go back to what worked in the past, i.e. self policing, but for how long? When a person or group of people feels slighted, as some inevitably will, what will stop them from coming up with some new creative scheme to disrupt the boards in an effort to further their own agenda?

I would agree with that, but would have a different view on who I see the group as being. However..because of the position that those people have managed to get themselves into I am not allowed to say what I think of how they have behaved, even if they, it seems, are allowed to say and do anything they want with impunity.

Many people seem to be confused about the rule which says:

•Do not posts comments related to specific moderator actions. The moderators may be contacted at setimods@ssl.berkeley.edu

My post, for example, talked about the history of moderation on these boards, not a specific moderator action. Others can discuss such things too (and when moderators get confused about what is being posted, a discussion usually will ensue). Moderators can not say and do anything with impunity. Moderators have made mistakes and their actions have been reversed. Perhaps people don't see it (when posts are hidden), but it does happen.

What has seemed to work fairly well is the (present) system of moderators selected from active posters, who could spot problems relatively quickly and respond. The main problem with this has turned out to be personality conflicts that have spawned the creation of groups of intelligent, creative, folks who organized themselves to further their agenda. That's where we are now. It may work, for a while, to go back to what worked in the past, i.e. self policing, but for how long? When a person or group of people feels slighted, as some inevitably will, what will stop them from coming up with some new creative scheme to disrupt the boards in an effort to further their own agenda?

I would agree with that, but would have a different view on who I see the group as being. However..because of the position that those people have managed to get themselves into I am not allowed to say what I think of how they have behaved, even if they, it seems, are allowed to say and do anything they want with impunity.

Many people seem to be confused about the rule which says:

•Do not posts comments related to specific moderator actions. The moderators may be contacted at setimods@ssl.berkeley.edu

My post, for example, talked about the history of moderation on these boards, not a specific moderator action. Others can discuss such things too (and when moderators get confused about what is being posted, a discussion usually will ensue). Moderators can not say and do anything with impunity. Moderators have made mistakes and their actions have been reversed. Perhaps people don't see it (when posts are hidden), but it does happen.

Oh really? Yet history tells me different. But you are right..there really is no point in discussing this further with you. There are none so blind as those who won't see.

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Reality Internet Personality

... There are none so blind as those who won't see.

Is that called "Seeing The Light"?

(Sorry, couldn't resist! :-) )


A very good 'art' of communication is to convey ideas in such a way that the blind will be 'nudged' and 'steered' so as to discover the 'Light' for themselves. For most people, it just isn't enough to say that it just 'is' (whatever that might be). Whereas if they 'find' out for themselves, they should then be able to see.

Not sure about the religious use of "Seeing The Light"... Or perhaps I'm just blinded by Science?


The only real question is whether you have the beligerent patience of Socratese to see it through...

Keep searchin',

Cheers,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... There are none so blind as those who won't see.

Is that called "Seeing The Light"?

(Sorry, couldn't resist! :-) )


A very good 'art' of communication is to convey ideas in such a way that the blind will be 'nudged' and 'steered' so as to discover the 'Light' for themselves. For most people, it just isn't enough to say that it just 'is' (whatever that might be). Whereas if they 'find' out for themselves, they should then be able to see.

Not sure about the religious use of "Seeing The Light"... Or perhaps I'm just blinded by Science?


The only real question is whether you have the beligerent patience of Socratese to see it through...

Keep searchin',

Cheers,
Martin

lol..no I am not religious.. but the phrase is apt in this case. I've tried nudging..explaining..even producing hard evidence to this person but he doesn't want to see. I have no idea why...maybe you can have more luck that me. Some people are so convinced that their world view is right it doesn't matter what you do, they simply don't want to know.

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Reality Internet Personality

... it doesn't matter what you do, they simply don't want to know.

Perhaps you need to be more 'entertaining' than the TV for them to notice?

;-p


Some people simply cannot learn for whatever reasons until something nudges (or even forces) them to start looking around themselves, or even to start thinking.

For some, that might take too long a time even for such as Socratese himself to impinge. Then it's a question of what your view or others view might be...


Anyhow, enough of philosophical abstractions. There is a whole universe of Zen for that... Good for thought and discussion at least!

Cheers,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... There are none so blind as those who won't see.

Is that called "Seeing The Light"?

(Sorry, couldn't resist! :-) )


A very good 'art' of communication is to convey ideas in such a way that the blind will be 'nudged' and 'steered' so as to discover the 'Light' for themselves. For most people, it just isn't enough to say that it just 'is' (whatever that might be). Whereas if they 'find' out for themselves, they should then be able to see.

Not sure about the religious use of "Seeing The Light"... Or perhaps I'm just blinded by Science?


The only real question is whether you have the beligerent patience of Socratese to see it through...

Keep searchin',

Cheers,
Martin

lol..no I am not religious.. but the phrase is apt in this case. I've tried nudging..explaining..even producing hard evidence to this person but he doesn't want to see. I have no idea why...maybe you can have more luck that me. Some people are so convinced that their world view is right it doesn't matter what you do, they simply don't want to know.

It's a human failing, alright!

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Never mind!

It should return to sweetness and light in just over 2 weeks when the forum script bites and cliques are broken up!

Some hope, as there are ways of mitigating this sort of impact!!

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It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues

Never mind!

It should return to sweetness and light in just over 2 weeks when the forum script bites and cliques are broken up!

Some hope, as there are ways of mitigating this sort of impact!!

Hopefully things will be a lot better...but only if the new 'Powers-That-Be' are determined to act to a higher standard than those who were in power before.


I sure hope that this will happen!!!



"The King is dead...Long Live the King!"

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