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Message 729248 - Posted: 22 Mar 2008, 23:03:57 UTC - in response to Message 729201.  
Last modified: 22 Mar 2008, 23:21:47 UTC



Not to change the subject, but I find it interesting that people tend to scoff when this very same type of research suggests physical rather than cultural differences between race yet no one bats and eye when it's used to support homosexuality...


Would be very interested in viewing this source if you could locate it again.



How about I supply you with just one since this issue is off topic.

Published in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, vol. 101, pp 569-570, 1996

As scientists who study human evolution and variation, we believe that we have an obligation to share with other scientists and the general public our current understanding of the structure of human variation from a biological perspective.


Personal Summary: Common ancestry does not preclude evolution.


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Message 729424 - Posted: 23 Mar 2008, 14:10:12 UTC - in response to Message 729259.  


Personal Summary: Common ancestry does not preclude evolution.


To be perfectly honest, I have no idea what your point is.
As far as I know evolution is such a slow process that ancestry wouldn't
even come in the picture.


Actually evolution (merely a process of change) can take place in relatively short periods of time as well.

Aren't the majority of the people you know taller than their grandparents?


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Message 729583 - Posted: 23 Mar 2008, 18:26:21 UTC - in response to Message 729434.  
Last modified: 23 Mar 2008, 18:32:26 UTC

Actually you refer to Phenotypic plasticity which does not relate
to evolutionary changes. People can grow smarter, taller, shorter,
dumber, due to enviromental pressures, without resulting in
"evolutionary changes." Generally evolutionary changes imply
long lasting genetic change.


The increase in human height is a global phenomenon taking place in multiple and greatly varying environments, more or less eliminating phenotypic plasticity as the cause.

Personally, I feel the increase in human height is directly related to natural selection. Most women prefer "tall, dark, and handsome", not short, pale, and ugly.


Biologists have recently found that in most animals and plants, bigger individuals are more successful at reproducing than smaller ones, whether they are finches, damselflies or jimsonweed.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/12/29/healthscience/snbig.php


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Message 729596 - Posted: 23 Mar 2008, 19:11:14 UTC

[thread-starter's complaint on]

Although the recently discussed phenotypic plasticity and evolutionary change stuff is quite interesting in itself, I'm not yet convinced that it still belongs to the topic I started in this thread.

I hope you guys can get back on-topic somehow, or provide a good argument why evolutionary changes and phenotypic plasticity can have anything to do with gender-variant people, because in my mind I don't manage to get these topics connected.

[thread-starter's complaint off]



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Message 729622 - Posted: 23 Mar 2008, 20:25:50 UTC - in response to Message 729583.  

Actually you refer to Phenotypic plasticity which does not relate
to evolutionary changes. People can grow smarter, taller, shorter,
dumber, due to enviromental pressures, without resulting in
"evolutionary changes." Generally evolutionary changes imply
long lasting genetic change.


The increase in human height is a global phenomenon taking place in multiple and greatly varying environments, more or less eliminating phenotypic plasticity as the cause.

Personally, I feel the increase in human height is directly related to natural selection. Most women prefer "tall, dark, and handsome", not short, pale, and ugly.


Biologists have recently found that in most animals and plants, bigger individuals are more successful at reproducing than smaller ones, whether they are finches, damselflies or jimsonweed.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/12/29/healthscience/snbig.php




Personally, as a mere woman of 5' 5" in height and a healthy UK size 14, "tall, dark, and handsome" usually means an arrogant, vain, egotistical man, with no sense of humour and little intelligence, who thinks he is 'God's gift to women'. I can spot them a mile away! As to the bit about larger animals tending to be more successful at reproducing, may I point out the demise of the largest creatures to have lived on this planet, to date? Size meant little then, as it was the smaller creatures that survived.

Getting back on topic, I will do my best to find the sources of the info that I came across, several years ago, but I can't promise it - after all, it was about two PCs ago...... At worst (read, more likely), I will dig out the address of a very informative site, which, if I remember correctly, was done by a US doctor (M.D.) who had gone down that path and become a woman.



Don't take life too seriously, as you'll never come out of it alive!
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Message 729676 - Posted: 23 Mar 2008, 22:57:08 UTC - in response to Message 729622.  
Last modified: 23 Mar 2008, 23:02:01 UTC


Personally, as a mere woman of 5' 5" in height and a healthy UK size 14, "tall, dark, and handsome" usually means an arrogant, vain, egotistical man, with no sense of humour and little intelligence, who thinks he is 'God's gift to women'. I can spot them a mile away! As to the bit about larger animals tending to be more successful at reproducing, may I point out the demise of the largest creatures to have lived on this planet, to date? Size meant little then, as it was the smaller creatures that survived.

Getting back on topic, I will do my best to find the sources of the info that I came across, several years ago, but I can't promise it - after all, it was about two PCs ago...... At worst (read, more likely), I will dig out the address of a very informative site, which, if I remember correctly, was done by a US doctor (M.D.) who had gone down that path and become a woman.


1. Note I said most women, not all. I'll concede that preference is going to vary from person to person, but you certainly did not state you find Vern more attractive than Brad...only that you have an aversion to the type of personality you believe he might possess based on nothing more than his physical appearance.

2. The Blue Whale is the largest creature to have ever lived on our planet, and it's still alive and kicking. However, I suspect that you were referring to the dinosaurs, and therefore must point out that it is commonly believed a catastrophic event, resulting in and coupled with an extreme climate change, wiped out the dinosaurs...not lack of breeding.


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Message 729761 - Posted: 24 Mar 2008, 8:38:47 UTC

I just found a nice little Q&A website

Q: What does it mean to be transgendered?

A: Transgendered people are individuals of any age or sex who manifest characteristics, behaviors or self-expression, which in their own or someone else's perception, is typical of or commonly associated with persons of another gender.

[...]

Q: What causes a person to be transgendered?

A: No definite answer can be offered to this question.[...]

.
.
.

Q: Can transgendered people be treated or cured?

A: There is no known cure or course of treatment which reverses the transgendered person's manifestation of the characteristics and behaviors of another gender. [...]


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Message 738279 - Posted: 13 Apr 2008, 10:14:28 UTC

Since this thread is about gender identity - living the wrong gender - what about gender roles in general? Gender clichés?
A woman who tries to be strong and protective, and likes to work in hand-crafting and doesn't like to be all sugar and spice is called a dyke or worse; a man who is supportive, sensitive, empathic and likes to care for others and cares about his appearance at the same time is called a sissy or worse. Why is that so? Even now, all these decades after the introduction of EMANCIPATION?





(I do not have to remind you to stay within the rules. I do not want this thread to vanish, even though the opinions may differ.)
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Message 738283 - Posted: 13 Apr 2008, 10:32:41 UTC

Yes..it is extremely common to persecute those who will not conform to their assigned gender roles.

Girls will be girls and boys will be boys (whether they like it or not).

for example..a man who speaks up and makes his opinion known is called assertive and praised. A woman who does so is called aggressive or a b**** or even crazy.

It's ok for men to use certain words causally and regularly and it is not even noticed. A woman does so once or twice and suddenly she is 'running amok'.

Most of these biases are so ingrained we don't even notice them and they are accepted as right and proper and the natural order of things.
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Message 738287 - Posted: 13 Apr 2008, 10:46:21 UTC - in response to Message 738283.  
Last modified: 13 Apr 2008, 10:49:41 UTC

Yes..it is extremely common to persecute those who will not conform to their assigned gender roles.

Girls will be girls and boys will be boys (whether they like it or not).

for example..a man who speaks up and makes his opinion known is called assertive and praised. A woman who does so is called aggressive or a b**** or even crazy.

It's ok for men to use certain words causally and regularly and it is not even noticed. A woman does so once or twice and suddenly she is 'running amok'.

Most of these biases are so ingrained we don't even notice them and they are accepted as right and proper and the natural order of things.


Hmm. Unfortunately you are right, and I herewith apologize for the remark I made elsewhere (you know what I mean).
But sometimes it's really hard to break thru the cliché-thinking.
And as I have experienced, this thinking in clichés starts even in childhood. Kids pick it up real early: I remember having overheard my then 4 year old son moaning (when his then sisters and or his 5 year old niece annoyed him once again) "Argh - girls, no!", or when being asked to help in the household (simple tasks according to his age): "No that's for girls!"
We parents used to laugh at these remarks and found them funny (but imagine, if this thinking remains - what a chauvinist he may become!)
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Message 738289 - Posted: 13 Apr 2008, 11:03:59 UTC - in response to Message 738287.  

Yes..it is extremely common to persecute those who will not conform to their assigned gender roles.

Girls will be girls and boys will be boys (whether they like it or not).

for example..a man who speaks up and makes his opinion known is called assertive and praised. A woman who does so is called aggressive or a b**** or even crazy.

It's ok for men to use certain words causally and regularly and it is not even noticed. A woman does so once or twice and suddenly she is 'running amok'.

Most of these biases are so ingrained we don't even notice them and they are accepted as right and proper and the natural order of things.


Hmm. Unfortunately you are right, and I herewith apologize for the remark I made elsewhere (you know what I mean).
But sometimes it's really hard to break thru the cliché-thinking.
And as I have experienced, this thinking in clichés starts even in childhood. Kids pick it up real early: I remember having overheard my then 4 year old son moaning (when his then sisters and or his 5 year old niece annoyed him once again) "Argh - girls, no!", or when being asked to help in the household (simple tasks according to his age): "No that's for girls!"
We parents used to laugh at these remarks and found them funny (but imagine, if this thinking remains - what a chauvinist he may become!)

Thank you Thorin.

A while ago on the Star Kingdom's game i decided to pretend i was a guy for a while. The way i was treated was startling different. I was much ruder than i am normally..used worse language and said worse things and it was TOTALLY accepted. I was treated with more respect and when i expressed my opinions they were listened too much quicker. It was quite a strange experience and the only thing i did differently was to put a macho avatar..chose a macho name..and use worse language and not correct anyone when they called me he. Their assumptions had done all the work. On the other side it seems that guys get more people (guys) trying to face them down in power struggles...but they back down much more quickly as well when challenged than they would if they thought they were trying to face down a woman.
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Message 738295 - Posted: 13 Apr 2008, 12:10:37 UTC
Last modified: 13 Apr 2008, 12:14:47 UTC

Perhaps its a biological consideration that society is being 'whimped' because the development of the human race has shown tyrants as aggresive natured egotistic sychophants.

Their favoured minions operate as sniping cowards harbouring ambitions of greedy glamour and self indulged glorification. It is perhaps indicative of the modern western world because of the changes to the accomplishment of social status e.g inheriting money and executive positions because of lineage.

The pedrigree is of course questionable as would be with any non proven ethical structure. Hence the development of the attitute to inherit such social titles has seen a severe branch away from the 'natural' born leader of the go getter. The emphasis these days is with who you know as opposed with what you can do.

As productive motivated members of society the natural drive towards the summit of potential talent is halted because of class structure. The consideration of that particular mechanism is that the working class have identified with that particular trend and as such the treacherous have found a rich vein of rapid social climbing because of the rewards of trickery. The consideration is that those particular cicumstances were existing among previous social mechanisms. Perhaps they we're but, they we're dealt with much swifter because of the nobility attached with 'bringing the food home' with blood on your hands.

Perhaps the techniques of 'blood on your hands' has changed because the cold justice of the blade is outlawed, thus, the 3 foot zeta reticuli has chosen the treacherous man.

Islam may seem strict and I'm not a muslim, but, man live by the sword die by the sword. That is why they don't want television near their country, that is why they don't want their women being shown. Recent America is a little boy historically and its dangerous not educating the newer generations to the dangers. I have spent many years studying cultures and I can tell you the entire world except America has been established with the procurement of the fuedal system the pedigree of fuedal barons was proven. Treachery is rife among the law systems and man, I'm worried, because if I'm unhappy with something I need millions of pounds to seek justice. Perhaps swift mercyless cold steel was the tonic?

Albert Einstein could tell you, he wasn't that quick leaving Germany.

Keep thinking.

I'm having pasta.
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Message 738299 - Posted: 13 Apr 2008, 12:28:28 UTC - in response to Message 738295.  

Perhaps its a biological consideration that society is being 'whimped' because the development of the human race has shown tyrants as aggresive natured egotistic sychophants.

Their favoured minions operate as sniping cowards harbouring ambitions of greedy glamour and self indulged glorification. It is perhaps indicative of the modern western world because of the changes to the accomplishment of social status e.g inheriting money and executive positions because of lineage.

The pedrigree is of course questionable as would be with any non proven ethical structure. Hence the development of the attitute to inherit such social titles has seen a severe branch away from the 'natural' born leader of the go getter. The emphasis these days is with who you know as opposed with what you can do.

As productive motivated members of society the natural drive towards the summit of potential talent is halted because of class structure. The consideration of that particular mechanism is that the working class have identified with that particular trend and as such the treacherous have found a rich vein of rapid social climbing because of the rewards of trickery. The consideration is that those particular cicumstances were existing among previous social mechanisms. Perhaps they we're but, they we're dealt with much swifter because of the nobility attached with 'bringing the food home' with blood on your hands.

Perhaps the techniques of 'blood on your hands' has changed because the cold justice of the blade is outlawed, thus, the 3 foot zeta reticuli has chosen the treacherous man.

Islam may seem strict and I'm not a muslim, but, man live by the sword die by the sword. That is why they don't want television near their country, that is why they don't want their women being shown. Recent America is a little boy historically and its dangerous not educating the newer generations to the dangers. I have spent many years studying cultures and I can tell you the entire world except America has been established with the procurement of the fuedal system the pedigree of fuedal barons was proven. Treachery is rife among the law systems and man, I'm worried, because if I'm unhappy with something I need millions of pounds to seek justice. Perhaps swift mercyless cold steel was the tonic?

Albert Einstein could tell you, he wasn't that quick leaving Germany.

Keep thinking.

I'm having pasta.

I'm sorry, this may all be quite interesting, but what has it to do with the topic of this thread? I don't get it.
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Message 738305 - Posted: 13 Apr 2008, 12:57:58 UTC - in response to Message 738299.  

Perhaps its a biological consideration that society is being 'whimped' because the development of the human race has shown tyrants as aggresive natured egotistic sychophants.

Their favoured minions operate as sniping cowards harbouring ambitions of greedy glamour and self indulged glorification. It is perhaps indicative of the modern western world because of the changes to the accomplishment of social status e.g inheriting money and executive positions because of lineage.

The pedrigree is of course questionable as would be with any non proven ethical structure. Hence the development of the attitute to inherit such social titles has seen a severe branch away from the 'natural' born leader of the go getter. The emphasis these days is with who you know as opposed with what you can do.

As productive motivated members of society the natural drive towards the summit of potential talent is halted because of class structure. The consideration of that particular mechanism is that the working class have identified with that particular trend and as such the treacherous have found a rich vein of rapid social climbing because of the rewards of trickery. The consideration is that those particular cicumstances were existing among previous social mechanisms. Perhaps they we're but, they we're dealt with much swifter because of the nobility attached with 'bringing the food home' with blood on your hands.

Perhaps the techniques of 'blood on your hands' has changed because the cold justice of the blade is outlawed, thus, the 3 foot zeta reticuli has chosen the treacherous man.

Islam may seem strict and I'm not a muslim, but, man live by the sword die by the sword. That is why they don't want television near their country, that is why they don't want their women being shown. Recent America is a little boy historically and its dangerous not educating the newer generations to the dangers. I have spent many years studying cultures and I can tell you the entire world except America has been established with the procurement of the fuedal system the pedigree of fuedal barons was proven. Treachery is rife among the law systems and man, I'm worried, because if I'm unhappy with something I need millions of pounds to seek justice. Perhaps swift mercyless cold steel was the tonic?

Albert Einstein could tell you, he wasn't that quick leaving Germany.

Keep thinking.

I'm having pasta.

I'm sorry, this may all be quite interesting, but what has it to do with the topic of this thread? I don't get it.


Transgender biological chemistry is perhaps another thread.




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Message 738324 - Posted: 13 Apr 2008, 14:00:03 UTC - in response to Message 738305.  

Perhaps its a biological consideration that society is being 'whimped' because the development of the human race has shown tyrants as aggresive natured egotistic sychophants.

Their favoured minions operate as sniping cowards harbouring ambitions of greedy glamour and self indulged glorification. It is perhaps indicative of the modern western world because of the changes to the accomplishment of social status e.g inheriting money and executive positions because of lineage.

The pedrigree is of course questionable as would be with any non proven ethical structure. Hence the development of the attitute to inherit such social titles has seen a severe branch away from the 'natural' born leader of the go getter. The emphasis these days is with who you know as opposed with what you can do.

As productive motivated members of society the natural drive towards the summit of potential talent is halted because of class structure. The consideration of that particular mechanism is that the working class have identified with that particular trend and as such the treacherous have found a rich vein of rapid social climbing because of the rewards of trickery. The consideration is that those particular cicumstances were existing among previous social mechanisms. Perhaps they we're but, they we're dealt with much swifter because of the nobility attached with 'bringing the food home' with blood on your hands.

Perhaps the techniques of 'blood on your hands' has changed because the cold justice of the blade is outlawed, thus, the 3 foot zeta reticuli has chosen the treacherous man.

Islam may seem strict and I'm not a muslim, but, man live by the sword die by the sword. That is why they don't want television near their country, that is why they don't want their women being shown. Recent America is a little boy historically and its dangerous not educating the newer generations to the dangers. I have spent many years studying cultures and I can tell you the entire world except America has been established with the procurement of the fuedal system the pedigree of fuedal barons was proven. Treachery is rife among the law systems and man, I'm worried, because if I'm unhappy with something I need millions of pounds to seek justice. Perhaps swift mercyless cold steel was the tonic?

Albert Einstein could tell you, he wasn't that quick leaving Germany.

Keep thinking.

I'm having pasta.

I'm sorry, this may all be quite interesting, but what has it to do with the topic of this thread? I don't get it.


Transgender biological chemistry is perhaps another thread.


You can call me dense if you want, but I still don't get the point of what your post has to do with any gender issues which have been mentioned in this thread so far (both transgender issues and gender role issues).
Maybe it's just written too philosophical...
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Message 738353 - Posted: 13 Apr 2008, 15:19:13 UTC - in response to Message 738324.  

Perhaps its a biological consideration that society is being 'whimped' because the development of the human race has shown tyrants as aggresive natured egotistic sychophants.

Their favoured minions operate as sniping cowards harbouring ambitions of greedy glamour and self indulged glorification. It is perhaps indicative of the modern western world because of the changes to the accomplishment of social status e.g inheriting money and executive positions because of lineage.

The pedrigree is of course questionable as would be with any non proven ethical structure. Hence the development of the attitute to inherit such social titles has seen a severe branch away from the 'natural' born leader of the go getter. The emphasis these days is with who you know as opposed with what you can do.

As productive motivated members of society the natural drive towards the summit of potential talent is halted because of class structure. The consideration of that particular mechanism is that the working class have identified with that particular trend and as such the treacherous have found a rich vein of rapid social climbing because of the rewards of trickery. The consideration is that those particular cicumstances were existing among previous social mechanisms. Perhaps they we're but, they we're dealt with much swifter because of the nobility attached with 'bringing the food home' with blood on your hands.

Perhaps the techniques of 'blood on your hands' has changed because the cold justice of the blade is outlawed, thus, the 3 foot zeta reticuli has chosen the treacherous man.

Islam may seem strict and I'm not a muslim, but, man live by the sword die by the sword. That is why they don't want television near their country, that is why they don't want their women being shown. Recent America is a little boy historically and its dangerous not educating the newer generations to the dangers. I have spent many years studying cultures and I can tell you the entire world except America has been established with the procurement of the fuedal system the pedigree of fuedal barons was proven. Treachery is rife among the law systems and man, I'm worried, because if I'm unhappy with something I need millions of pounds to seek justice. Perhaps swift mercyless cold steel was the tonic?

Albert Einstein could tell you, he wasn't that quick leaving Germany.

Keep thinking.

I'm having pasta.

I'm sorry, this may all be quite interesting, but what has it to do with the topic of this thread? I don't get it.


Transgender biological chemistry is perhaps another thread.


You can call me dense if you want, but I still don't get the point of what your post has to do with any gender issues which have been mentioned in this thread so far (both transgender issues and gender role issues).
Maybe it's just written too philosophical...



Yes, thats why I have studied different cultures, because the language barrier could be a, stumbling block. Some theory needs philosophical consideration, couldn't that be the difference between men and women the ''go club emm'' vs the ''go tech emm'' syndrome. Anthropology is the study of humans = men, women.


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Message 738369 - Posted: 13 Apr 2008, 15:29:41 UTC - in response to Message 738324.  


...
Maybe it's just written too philosophical...

no..I don't think that's it.
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Message 738403 - Posted: 13 Apr 2008, 16:12:03 UTC

Because I have been educated with the opportunity of not being bogged with excessive work, I have had the opportunity of assessing those who have 'slave rights' and commitments with someone else's business {i.e the employers dreams and wishes}. Its perhaps silly of me {thus developed predominant philosophical theology} and as an amatuer journalist inconsiderate maintaining such idealistic observations.

What i'm saying is because we're so busy going to work, we're changing our priorities and the gender obvious differences have shown a subsiding quotient.
Because i'm 'old fashioned' I prefer woman who I have won with my wit, charm and charisma. I am perhaps better suited with friendship's with men of old fashioned virtues and rugged earned maturity. So, that was my 1 pence quota.
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Message 738646 - Posted: 13 Apr 2008, 23:26:57 UTC - in response to Message 738283.  

Most of these biases are so ingrained we don't even notice them

I notice them... ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 744044 - Posted: 25 Apr 2008, 16:18:11 UTC
Last modified: 25 Apr 2008, 16:21:41 UTC

I just read that there even is a gender difference in the Japanese spoken language. (not grammatical gender but differences according to the gender role).
The style (choice of words and grammar) used by men when they want to be polite is the style normally used by women - while the style used by women who want to be polite is considered awkward when it comes from a man, and the style normally used by men is considered blunt (at least) when used by a woman...
There are even Japanese words among those many with the same meaning in English which better are avoided by either men or women if they don't want to be seen as gay.

See also the wiki
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