gender, sex, or?

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Iona
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Message 727014 - Posted: 16 Mar 2008, 16:05:42 UTC - in response to Message 726996.  

OK...one of my brothers also commited suicide........
And it had nothing to do with wondering about why he had balls......



Sadly, my brother, who was a smoker died early - he was killed crossing the road. He didn't die becasue he was s smoker, but because he was hit by a car doing over 40 mph in a 30 mph limit.

Well, my bro jumped offa a bridge.....hit the railroad tracks below.....
I was the one who was left the task of kissing him goodbye on the slab.
So please pardon me if I get a bit maudlin now and again......



I'm sorry to hear that, it must have been awful. I was the one who, in a sense, ended my brother's Life a second time, in agreeing for the Life Support to be switched off. Few days go by, without the words, "what if", "perhaps they were wrong" and "patience" entering my thoughts.

But now you are jumping off in another direction......
Are we talking about the end of life, or trangenderism?

I could go on about either........



You started it! lol Well, no you didn't, but you know what I mean.... Here we are 'crunching away, some quicker than others, trying to detect signs of ETI and yet there is so much that is alien to us, on our own home planet. Perhaps I'm a little more accepting of 'difference' because women are generally more compassionate or because I've encountered more difference closer to home and had to address that lack of knowledge.

I personally, came from a position, where I had thought someone was 'gay', because for a man, I thought they were effeminate - even though they were (and still are) a close friend, to trying to understand (sometimes succeeding) a whole new 'ball game' (pun intended). When its someone who is a close friend or family member, I think most people will go the extra mile.

You hsve to wonder at what we will eventually find 'out there' and how we will be regarded. For all we know, an ET could regard having two distinct, physical genders as being very puzzling.



Don't take life too seriously, as you'll never come out of it alive!
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Message 727028 - Posted: 16 Mar 2008, 16:35:11 UTC - in response to Message 727014.  
Last modified: 16 Mar 2008, 16:35:50 UTC

OK...one of my brothers also commited suicide........
And it had nothing to do with wondering about why he had balls......



Sadly, my brother, who was a smoker died early - he was killed crossing the road. He didn't die becasue he was s smoker, but because he was hit by a car doing over 40 mph in a 30 mph limit.

Well, my bro jumped offa a bridge.....hit the railroad tracks below.....
I was the one who was left the task of kissing him goodbye on the slab.
So please pardon me if I get a bit maudlin now and again......



I'm sorry to hear that, it must have been awful. I was the one who, in a sense, ended my brother's Life a second time, in agreeing for the Life Support to be switched off. Few days go by, without the words, "what if", "perhaps they were wrong" and "patience" entering my thoughts.

But now you are jumping off in another direction......
Are we talking about the end of life, or trangenderism?

I could go on about either........



You started it! lol Well, no you didn't, but you know what I mean.... Here we are 'crunching away, some quicker than others, trying to detect signs of ETI and yet there is so much that is alien to us, on our own home planet. Perhaps I'm a little more accepting of 'difference' because women are generally more compassionate or because I've encountered more difference closer to home and had to address that lack of knowledge.

I personally, came from a position, where I had thought someone was 'gay', because for a man, I thought they were effeminate - even though they were (and still are) a close friend, to trying to understand (sometimes succeeding) a whole new 'ball game' (pun intended). When its someone who is a close friend or family member, I think most people will go the extra mile.

You hsve to wonder at what we will eventually find 'out there' and how we will be regarded. For all we know, an ET could regard having two distinct, physical genders as being very puzzling.



Yup....ET might no have no distinct genders at all to need to procreate.....or the stigma attached to it......
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 727031 - Posted: 16 Mar 2008, 16:48:50 UTC

I must admit my view towards transgender and gay is similar to Mark's. When I work with colleagues who are of that persuasion, then I treat them as I wish to be treated. However, I have a proviso that they do not push their sexuality on me, and no one has to my knowledge. So, equilibrium is maintained.

Iona is correct in that all embryos go through all the stages of evolution leading to the final form, human. Also, all fetal development leads to the female gender until the appropriate conditions occur at a time to confirm femaleness or impose maleness on the foetus.

I am not familiar with the development, but I think, just after the shaping of what will become the male equipment, the fetal brain is exposed to testosterone to drive maleness.

In the absence of this testosterone exposure the fetus confirms it's femaleness.

But, as I also understand, some female fetus brains are exposed to testosterone and this may lead to a male in a female body. Similarly, at certain stages in fetal development the male can be exposed to progesterone, and this may lead to the female in a male body.

Just my 1p's worth!
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Message 727038 - Posted: 16 Mar 2008, 16:58:27 UTC - in response to Message 727031.  

When I work with colleagues who are of that persuasion, then I treat them as I wish to be treated. However, I have a proviso that they do not push their sexuality on me, and no one has to my knowledge.

That is the exact same way I feel.
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Message 727041 - Posted: 16 Mar 2008, 17:02:30 UTC - in response to Message 727038.  

When I work with colleagues who are of that persuasion, then I treat them as I wish to be treated. However, I have a proviso that they do not push their sexuality on me, and no one has to my knowledge.

That is the exact same way I feel.


Feeling and acting can be different shoes.



With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.
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Message 727052 - Posted: 16 Mar 2008, 17:21:58 UTC - in response to Message 727041.  

When I work with colleagues who are of that persuasion, then I treat them as I wish to be treated. However, I have a proviso that they do not push their sexuality on me, and no one has to my knowledge.

That is the exact same way I feel.


Feeling and acting can be different shoes.

Don't ask. Don't tell.

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 727071 - Posted: 16 Mar 2008, 18:22:41 UTC - in response to Message 727041.  

When I work with colleagues who are of that persuasion, then I treat them as I wish to be treated. However, I have a proviso that they do not push their sexuality on me, and no one has to my knowledge.

That is the exact same way I feel.


Feeling and acting can be different shoes.

I would ACT to that person the same way I would hope they might ACT to me.
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Message 727073 - Posted: 16 Mar 2008, 18:38:07 UTC - in response to Message 727052.  

When I work with colleagues who are of that persuasion, then I treat them as I wish to be treated. However, I have a proviso that they do not push their sexuality on me, and no one has to my knowledge.

That is the exact same way I feel.


Feeling and acting can be different shoes.

Don't ask. Don't tell.


I've always been slightly puzzled by this response so hopefully one of you can explain it to me. When you ask that homosexuals "not push their sexuality on me" is it that you don't want to be exposed to any evidence of their sexuality at all or that would be fine as long as they never ask you out?
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Message 727088 - Posted: 16 Mar 2008, 19:32:10 UTC - in response to Message 727073.  

When I work with colleagues who are of that persuasion, then I treat them as I wish to be treated. However, I have a proviso that they do not push their sexuality on me, and no one has to my knowledge.

That is the exact same way I feel.


Feeling and acting can be different shoes.

Don't ask. Don't tell.


I've always been slightly puzzled by this response so hopefully one of you can explain it to me. When you ask that homosexuals "not push their sexuality on me" is it that you don't want to be exposed to any evidence of their sexuality at all or that would be fine as long as they never ask you out?

That reminds me of a situation I had when I was hitch-hiking through the States :D
I was picked up by a man in his 30's, and instead of sitting down at the passenger seat as usual, I crawled on the back-seat behind it. When we chatted he asked me if I had any objections against homosexuals, and I told him bluntly that I hadn't, but that if they would fall in love to me the feelings never could be mutual, because I am strictly straight.. He then looked sad, and excused himself, and dropped me right off as I finished my sentence.
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Message 727126 - Posted: 16 Mar 2008, 21:39:43 UTC

I don't really understand this discussion at all. In the 21st century everyone should be able to pursue happiness (isn't that by the way, what's written in the Bill of Rights?). And if happiness for some people means to change their gender - well then it's the way it is. It's their decision and theirs alone.
I don't see any problem with it.
Best regards
Jens
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Message 727133 - Posted: 16 Mar 2008, 22:05:03 UTC - in response to Message 727073.  
Last modified: 16 Mar 2008, 22:07:22 UTC

I've always been slightly puzzled by this response so hopefully one of you can explain it to me. When you ask that homosexuals "not push their sexuality on me" is it that you don't want to be exposed to any evidence of their sexuality at all or that would be fine as long as they never ask you out?


The latter!

They are human, with all that goes with that.

Friendship could be part of that relationship, if that is the way it develops. But, your latter comment is the point, not evidence of their sexuality.

Any evidence will not phase me, but I am straight and I would not like to offend if the latter is likely to happen.
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Message 727139 - Posted: 16 Mar 2008, 22:20:38 UTC - in response to Message 727126.  
Last modified: 16 Mar 2008, 22:23:30 UTC

I don't really understand this discussion at all. In the 21st century everyone should be able to pursue happiness (isn't that by the way, what's written in the Bill of Rights?). And if happiness for some people means to change their gender - well then it's the way it is. It's their decision and theirs alone.
I don't see any problem with it.


That's a gross over-simplification of the problem. What if their pursuit of happiness involves bestiality or some other perversion? Who's to say if those individuals stood up for their rights, that some liberal wouldn't push to have it removed as a crime against nature, as the homosexual community did?

Personally, I'm not against someone having a sex change, but as with my thoughts on abortion (pro-choice), having the right doesn't make it right.


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Message 727144 - Posted: 16 Mar 2008, 22:28:35 UTC

You should not feel any different whether it's a guy or a girl (or former guy or girl) that expresses interest, and to not allow them the right to express it. Otherwise, you're then expecting them to know your preferences somehow. Somewhat of a double standard, I think. You want a gay to know you're straight so they won't "bother" you, but you don't want to know their preferences.

Regardless of who expresses interest, you politely refuse if you are not interested in return. No one has to wear a sign saying "Straight", "Gay", "Transgender" or any other way of putting them into a box.


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Message 727209 - Posted: 17 Mar 2008, 1:24:36 UTC - in response to Message 727139.  
Last modified: 17 Mar 2008, 1:25:57 UTC

That's a gross over-simplification of the problem. What if their pursuit of happiness involves bestiality or some other perversion? Who's to say if those individuals stood up for their rights, that some liberal wouldn't push to have it removed as a crime against nature, as the homosexual community did?

Personally, I'm not against someone having a sex change, but as with my thoughts on abortion (pro-choice), having the right doesn't make it right.


I think this is a problem of moral - not more and not less. People don't hurt anyone by (re-)choosing their gender. All they might do is provoke those, who are intolerant about this for whatever reason.

By the way: I'm quite a critic of abortions myself. But I also think, that these two things absolutely cannot be compared. It's a difference whether you decide over life and death for somebody else or if you change your gender.
And of course: Having a right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do. But I can't see, what could possibly be wrong about this decision, except that you might regret it some day.
Best regards
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Message 727293 - Posted: 17 Mar 2008, 10:45:08 UTC - in response to Message 727209.  
Last modified: 17 Mar 2008, 10:47:13 UTC


I think this is a problem of moral - not more and not less. People don't hurt anyone by (re-)choosing their gender. All they might do is provoke those, who are intolerant about this for whatever reason.


I think that's debatable as well. I can easily see how parents with strong religious views, or the father who expected his son to carry on the family name would be "hurt" by a decision like that...and let's not forget that medicine isn't an exact science. Wouldn't you be hurt if your child/friend/significant other died on the operating table during an unneeded procedure?

By the way: I'm quite a critic of abortions myself. But I also think, that these two things absolutely cannot be compared. It's a difference whether you decide over life and death for somebody else or if you change your gender.
And of course: Having a right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do. But I can't see, what could possibly be wrong about this decision, except that you might regret it some day.


Aren't the consequences of said action the exact reason we advise people against things like substance abuse and unprotected sex?

I still agree that it should be the choice of the individual, but in my opinion, to say it only affects that individual, is once again an over-simplification of the problem.


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Message 727385 - Posted: 17 Mar 2008, 18:53:01 UTC

I have no issue with anyone who is different in this respect.

A very good friend from college (also named Peter) underwent the surgery and is now Perette.

Our friendship hasn't changed...our discussions haven't changed.

Her heart is still the same.


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Message 728091 - Posted: 20 Mar 2008, 7:46:03 UTC - in response to Message 727139.  

Personally, I'm not against someone having a sex change, but as with my thoughts on abortion (pro-choice), having the right doesn't make it right.


This brings to mind the situation here in my house. I'm for pro-choice and my wife is a pro-lifer. Nothing that either one of us says to the other will ever change the others mind on the subject. There are valid arguments on both sides. Thankfully this subject has only been a theorical discussion and has not been cause to disrupt our marriage. On Sunday we will be celebrating our 23rd anniversary.

I must admit my view towards transgender and gay is similar to Mark's. When I work with colleagues who are of that persuasion, then I treat them as I wish to be treated. However, I have a proviso that they do not push their sexuality on me, and no one has to my knowledge. So, equilibrium is maintained.


Personally I could care less what a persons sexual preference is. However, when it comes to the work place as far as I am concerned that (whatever your preference is) remains at the door.
Years ago I managed a restaruant where some of the waiters and waitresses were gay or lesbian. As the business was advertised to tour groups around the country as a family orientated establishment with family entertainment, the workers conduct had a direct affect on our customers. After the owner fired 2 people for "conduct unbecoming a family atmosphere" (numerous complaints from other employees as well as customers of verbal abuse and behavior around their young children) and was sued for discrimination the business got a reputation as being a gay and lesbian hang out and within a year the business went bankrupt.

There is a time and place for such behaviors. May not be worded right but I'll try anyway. - Just as gays, lesbians and transgendered people have the right to be the way they are, those of us that are not that way have the right to not have it thrown in our faces all the time and being made out to be insensitive (for lack of a better word). Political correctness run rampant!

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Message 728241 - Posted: 20 Mar 2008, 17:56:36 UTC - in response to Message 728091.  

I must admit my view towards transgender and gay is similar to Mark's. When I work with colleagues who are of that persuasion, then I treat them as I wish to be treated. However, I have a proviso that they do not push their sexuality on me, and no one has to my knowledge. So, equilibrium is maintained.


Personally I could care less what a persons sexual preference is. However, when it comes to the work place as far as I am concerned that (whatever your preference is) remains at the door.
Years ago I managed a restaruant where some of the waiters and waitresses were gay or lesbian. As the business was advertised to tour groups around the country as a family orientated establishment with family entertainment, the workers conduct had a direct affect on our customers. After the owner fired 2 people for "conduct unbecoming a family atmosphere" (numerous complaints from other employees as well as customers of verbal abuse and behavior around their young children) and was sued for discrimination the business got a reputation as being a gay and lesbian hang out and within a year the business went bankrupt.

There is a time and place for such behaviors. May not be worded right but I'll try anyway. - Just as gays, lesbians and transgendered people have the right to be the way they are, those of us that are not that way have the right to not have it thrown in our faces all the time and being made out to be insensitive (for lack of a better word). Political correctness run rampant!


How do you determine something has been "thrown in our faces"? It seems to me the standard for gays should be the same as for heterosexuals. A few years ago a comment from a colleague led me to make a conscious effort to note all the displays of sexuality I encountered over a weekend. I gave up after about 10 minutes as there were simply too many to count. So I revised my plans and stuck to noting public indicators of coupledom. I gave up trying to keep count of those too. A few incidents seemed to provoke an "aww, that's sweet" reaction from onlookers, a few got the "get a room already" response but most were thoroughly unremarkable: a quick touch of the hands when parting outside the subway, a lot of arms around shoulders and holding of hands, a man handing his wallet to a woman to put in her bag, lots of small touches and looks that while not overtly sexual made it obvious the two people were a couple. We are not as used to seeing same sex couples and so are more likely to be consciously aware of them when the exact same behavior by opposite gender couples goes completely unnoticed.


Snags


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Message 728306 - Posted: 20 Mar 2008, 21:30:50 UTC - in response to Message 728241.  

How do you determine something has been "thrown in our faces"? It seems to me the standard for gays should be the same as for heterosexuals.



In a perfect world, that would be true, the problem is that this is Earth.

The law states that you cannot discriminate against those who are different, not that you have to be tolerant of their actions, thoughts, or ideas. And as Arion indicated, the majority of people will not patronize an establishment they deem as dirty, lewd and/or a potential health risk.

How do you determine something has been thrown in your face? Simple, it's repeated exposure to that which you do not wish to be exposed to. If one cannot change the environment, the only option left is to stop exposing yourself to that environment, and once again, as Arion indicated, this does not affect the intolerant, but rather those who continue to express their chosen perversion in a public setting.


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Message 728424 - Posted: 21 Mar 2008, 0:36:22 UTC - in response to Message 728241.  

We are not as used to seeing same sex couples and so are more likely to be consciously aware of them when the exact same behavior by opposite gender couples goes completely unnoticed.


Okay with your statement I might agree with you to a degree. However, when that behavior is deliberately exagerated in order to stand out or shock those around you that goes above and beyond normal polite society. Turning on the TV and seeing that behavior is also offensive to most people. Sure the easiest thing to say is if you don't want to be exposed to it turn the channel. Well when you can't sit in front of your TV and watch programming with your kids, that's "in your face".

And with that I think I'll stop there.


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