@ cRunchy & Ozzfan, terrific posts, thanks.

@ Misfit, you trying to confuse us? I liked your other avatar better.

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I guess people are getting the connection between this thread and Free speech thread.

Someone is trying optional solution.

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Mandtugai!

Sorry to butt in, you are doing very well...

Hey! I'm not doing the hackings. There's various many other fingers behind the scenes.

I'm just a noisy observer!

<snip>

... well, thank you for being one :)

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Happy birthday Calm Chaos!!! Terrible twos?


Calm Chaos... are you feeling it yet?

That is so cool! I wish I had thought of this prior to having some of my post deleted because I had quoted a post later deleted...
Trust a moderator to come up with a way around the rule!!! Can we all use this ploy :o)

A perfect example of how most of you are just waiting to find things wrong with what the moderators do so that you can point the fingers. Yet another example of how you think Mods have to be perfect in order to be selected.

Or on balance they may not like being told they are wrong when they are not.

Again, a matter of perception. Of course people who are modded prefer not to think they're wrong. Most people believe so much of themselves that they can't possibly fathom being in the wrong. Also, again, if they believe they are not wrong, there is a system in place to take care of the issue. There's absolutely no reason to drag it out all over the boards and constantly take shots and the Admins and Mods knowing it will cause further modding. Why bring on additional problems? It's just not the best way to handle things.

Or on balance not every one follows the general consensus and not all 'newbies' are so ignorant.

Sure. But if they break the rules, they can expect to be modded regardless if they like to follow the general consensus. And I never said "newbies" are ignorant. Nice to try and sneak that in there.

"Just a forum" is perhaps 'just your view.' Though why would people join in if it was something not of value.

Something taken out of context and missing another point I made. It is, in fact, 'just a forum'. People put value into things they do and enjoy, but sometimes they tend to put too much value into it and start making things personal.

I hear you: 'If folk don't like the rules they should go away'...

Mmmm... That would be kind of easy for moderators as the only people that would be left on the forums would be those who were exactly like the moderators..

What a horribly offensive misinterpretation of my intent which I felt was well worded. Yet another perfect example of how people will read what they want to, how they want to, regardless if that's what was meant. This is exactly how bad blood happens. I'm just going to leave it at that and not get dragged down with such thinking.

Priorities.

Personally I don't see the SETI forums as part of the system...

When the forums work well they are superb when they don't it's a real pain...

The same happens in families, work, communities and life in general.

Yes, but there's a difference between families, work, etc. and these boards. If you are actually trying to draw a parallel between the two and insist that it is equally important, then I'm afraid that shows a great disturbance in that line of thinking.

I'm one of those that believe and want moderation but there are many ideas about what makes good moderation across thousands of forums upon the net.

On the otherside though there are some 50,000+ UseNet (newsgroups) groups that are mostly unmoderated and most have survived for near a quarter of century.

Personally I prefer the form of forum that actively develops (and supports) a strong core group of regular members and where moderators act as a guideline.

Though I do think sometimes we need to define absolute boundaries.

I agree with everything you said here. The only difference is that these boards have certain legal rules they have to follow, unlike UseNet. There's also a major difference between the people on UseNet and the average person on these boards (not referring to anyone or any forum specifically), most of whom are not nearly technically inclined.

On balance whilst I suspect you are aiming this comment at "members" of this forum the same statement could also be applied to moderators or administrators as they are "intelligent people" also I assume?

As the moderators and admins have far greater chance to 'consolidate' their opinions relative to this forum they are most likely to form the strongest "cliques" as you say...

If only you could see what I see behind the scenes. You would not make such an assertion as you have here.

Lets not play the 'paternal moderator' game... We are all people here and there is no reason to assume moderators are any better at being logical than any member.

I didn't. I'm sorry you took it that way. I believe you took it that way because of the very nature of your negativity toward moderators, so you will try to read as much negatively into what is posted as possible.

In fact given statistical likelihood there will be far more members who are better qualified educationally, socially, psychologically or in life skills than their moderator counter-parts...

Ahhh yes. There are lies, damned lies and statistics. Of course, such a comment like this seems to have no real bearing on the discussion other than to say "we are probably more intelligent than you and I don't like the way you're talking down to me", when, in fact, I have not talked down to anyone. I just attempted to share my view.

As I said moderators could also be doing this very same thing.

Yes. They could. Let's look at how you have to point that out specifically as yet another attempt to keep pointing things toward the mods, when of course my statement was all inclusive.

I also stated that if someone feels a Mod isn't being fair, they can use the system in place to correct it.

Everyone is different. Why someone should wish to put their effort into being a member of this forum is not for me to say. I'm just glad that people do.

Maybe some people just believe in the 'concept' of SETI but aren't into the science... Maybe they love the concept so just want be amongst a 'community' of others who like the idea...

Sure. We can speculate all day as to what everyone's individual reason is for. The whole idea behind forums is to find other like-minded people and there's nothing wrong with that. I never said that everyone's reason has to be to believe in the science, but they have to remember that the science is the reason for being here regardless. Without the SETI@Home science, these boards wouldn't exist in the first place.

If people just want to hang out together without the science, then I'm sure there's plenty of other forums on the internet they could attach themselves to.

If Eric is the only member of staff that thinks the forums are of any real value then personally I think Eric is the only person with vision.

Yet another misunderstanding of my position. I believe the forums can have a value for the purpose of why they're here: the science. For people to communicate back with the project or to discuss with each other.

The problem is that some of the current crop of individuals are ruining it for everyone. Once the fun is gone, then the value is gone too.

Think about this:

I might donate my computer time via BOINC to SETI@Home because I believe in the idea of the project but I don't need to know anything about the science.

99% of the planet are not interested in the science of the stars but many are interested in 'what is out there'... For the many having a chance to chat with others of a similar frame is sort of payment for running our PCs as crunching volunteers.

Sure. As I stated above, you don't have to "believe" in the science, but you have to understand that it is the reason you're here to begin with. If you just want to talk with people about the mere ability to be a volunteer with your PC to a project, then I'm sure someone with those skills you mentioned earlier could actually program your own message boards and moderate them as you wish without such "hassles" of the SETI Mod team. Meanwhile, others who have no problem with the Mods will be able to get on with their own fun on these boards.

(I do wonder sometimes whether the SETI@Home project would prefer to have less crunchers than it has at the moment?).

Well, you're free to wonder, but given Eric's comments I've read, he's very interested in getting as many volunteers as possible. But people who want to try to control the project through politicking or being a general nuisance, one has to wonder exactly how much their contribution is worth the problems they cause. Even businesses have customers they do not want and show the door. The person who's being shown the door, of course, doesn't like it, but if they've been given a chance upon chance upon chance to straighten up and they still don't "get it", then perhaps you either remove them or close the doors if they're overrunning the place with all their friends.

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It seems a member of our International community has an issue with what is presumed racism and donations to the Seti Cause.

At this point I am going to lock the thread to prevent other misunderstading while we attempt to sort it out...

Regards

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Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

It seems a member of our International community has an issue with what is presumed racism and donations to the Seti Cause.

At this point I am going to lock the thread to prevent other misunderstading while we attempt to sort it out...

Regards

Unlocked, and posts from here going into the Donations thread. I think someones button is messed up. :-)

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Well, you're free to wonder, but given Eric's comments I've read, he's very interested in getting as many volunteers as possible. But people who want to try to control the project through politicking or being a general nuisance, one has to wonder exactly how much their contribution is worth the problems they cause. Even businesses have customers they do not want and show the door. The person who's being shown the door, of course, doesn't like it, but if they've been given a chance upon chance upon chance to straighten up and they still don't "get it", then perhaps you either remove them or close the doors if they're overrunning the place with all their friends.

Very well said!

I have a customer just like that, who I have trying to get rid of. It is very close to the point where I e-mail Microsoft, F.A.S.T & inform the police.

The problem: - he is a pirate & continuiosly brings systems to me to upgrade, fine - the problem is he has over 18 A4 pages (double columned & double sided)of product keys. He has been informed verbally & in writing to discontinue this, but I am being ignored. He thinks there is nothing wrong with this.

Sounds familiar?

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Any member with the skills to hack can PM me for my IP and we'll start a new thread and we can report the outcome

Meh, this post stayed so I guess it was ok and not deemed off topic...

I don't need you to PM me your IP to see what kind of pics you got :)

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I wonder why Esme got banished...

I don't think its necessary for us to discuss every banishment, nor will we. I think this would fall under the category of "comments related to specific moderator action."

It would be difficult to discuss the specifics without including the contents of deleted posts. The fourth and fifth bullet points under the rules you see when you post would probably be the ones of interest.

Eric

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As a road user of long standing, if I choose to drive on the wrong side of the road & jump a red light & get caught - what will the judge think if I debate the right to drive how I please?

I know what will happen - Bye Bye Driving License!!!

IS the judge wrong for banning me from the roads?

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As a road user of long standing, if I choose to drive on the wrong side of the road & jump a red light & get caught - what will the judge think if I debate the right to drive how I please?

I know what will happen - Bye Bye Driving License!!!

IS the judge wrong for banning me from the roads?

You know what the rules of the road are. If you choose to ignore them, then the rest is up to you. The judge only enforces the rules, he does not write them.
If you crash and burn, may you escape safely.

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"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

You know what the rules of the road are. If you choose to ignore them, then the rest is up to you. The judge only enforces the rules, he does not write them.
If you crash and burn, may you escape safely.

Very true. However, I was trying to put across the principle. It's the same whatever one does, unless one enter's the unknown.

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As a road user of long standing, if I choose to drive on the wrong side of the road & jump a red light & get caught - what will the judge think if I debate the right to drive how I please?

I know what will happen - Bye Bye Driving License!!!

IS the judge wrong for banning me from the roads?

You know what the rules of the road are. If you choose to ignore them, then the rest is up to you. The judge only enforces the rules, he does not write them.
If you crash and burn, may you escape safely.

Actually, you may not know what the rules of the road are. Some are pretty obscure. But even if you don't know a particular rule/law, you can be punished by the judge. Also, you may think what you have done is not a violation of a law or rule, but if the judge disagrees with you (meaning the Judge agrees with the Cop who gave you the ticket), you will still be fined. It's the judge who decides what the law says or the rule means, not the person who was ticketed.

The same principles apply to posting here. If you don't know the rules, or if you think you are within the rule, you may still be moderated or even banned, no matter how much you believe you are right. You can always appeal to the modlist, and your position will be discussed (and sometimes the moderators will even agree with you--it has happened), but if the moderators find you to be wrong, your post will remain hidden and repeating such behaviour may result in a ban.

As a road user of long standing, if I choose to drive on the wrong side of the road & jump a red light & get caught - what will the judge think if I debate the right to drive how I please?

I know what will happen - Bye Bye Driving License!!!

IS the judge wrong for banning me from the roads?

You know what the rules of the road are. If you choose to ignore them, then the rest is up to you. The judge only enforces the rules, he does not write them.
If you crash and burn, may you escape safely.

Actually, you may not know what the rules of the road are. Some are pretty obscure. But even if you don't know a particular rule/law, you can be punished by the judge. Also, you may think what you have done is not a violation of a law or rule, but if the judge disagrees with you (meaning the Judge agrees with the Cop who gave you the ticket), you will still be fined. It's the judge who decides what the law says or the rule means, not the person who was ticketed.

The same principles apply to posting here. If you don't know the rules, or if you think you are within the rule, you may still be moderated or even banned, no matter how much you believe you are right. You can always appeal to the modlist, and your position will be discussed (and sometimes the moderators will even agree with you--it has happened), but if the moderators find you to be wrong, your post will remain hidden and repeating such behaviour may result in a ban.

It is the law in some countries that your hands are chopped off if you steal. I would argue with any judge in those countries that this law is wrong and does not belong in a modern world, if they ever belonged anywhere. Perhaps the laws you refer to in these boards are wrong, no matter how good a judge you think you are in applying them - they are still wrong.

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flaming balloons

Definitely food for thought Grendel.

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Daniel

Really

You want to turn this into something it is not... Then you do this Apples and Oranges thing... All you have to do is follow the rules. Tony did not. Tony got banned. Eric stated why...

It is the law in some countries that your hands are chopped off if you steal. I would argue with any judge in those countries that this law is wrong and does not belong in a modern world, if they ever belonged anywhere. Perhaps the laws you refer to in these boards are wrong, no matter how good a judge you think you are in applying them - they are still wrong.

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Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

We just want fair message boards. With fair rules. Rules that are not twisted to favor those that apply them.

Really

You want to turn this into something it is not... Then you do this Apples and Oranges thing... All you have to do is follow the rules. Tony did not. Tony got banned. Eric stated why...

It is the law in some countries that your hands are chopped off if you steal. I would argue with any judge in those countries that this law is wrong and does not belong in a modern world, if they ever belonged anywhere. Perhaps the laws you refer to in these boards are wrong, no matter how good a judge you think you are in applying them - they are still wrong.

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flaming balloons

Okay

I will bite.
Then Why do you/others fail to follow the rules and end up moderated?
Is there some dark secret thing that compels potentially you and other to break the rules?
By breaking the rules are you forcing Eric to consider closing the forums?
What about all the other people that feel the rules are fine and never have any problems?
Are you really doing them/everyone a service?

Eric has stated that there are those that break the rules and they are dealt with (as fairly as possible). It has gotten to the extent that some users are banned (for various reasons and periods of time).

The majority of people in the Forums have "no" problems with the rules as they are stated, it seems there is only a few. Those rules are applied to everyone.

We just want fair message boards. With fair rules. Rules that are not twisted to favor those that apply them.

Really

You want to turn this into something it is not... Then you do this Apples and Oranges thing... All you have to do is follow the rules. Tony did not. Tony got banned. Eric stated why...

It is the law in some countries that your hands are chopped off if you steal. I would argue with any judge in those countries that this law is wrong and does not belong in a modern world, if they ever belonged anywhere. Perhaps the laws you refer to in these boards are wrong, no matter how good a judge you think you are in applying them - they are still wrong.

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Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

The problem is that the "few" have been growing larger all the time, and I'm not even referring to those who have formed outside collectives. When added all together, that makes for a sizable minority. There is something more wrong here than meets the eye, and some people don't want to admit to it; otherwise, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

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Account frozen...

Actually, you may not know what the rules of the road are. Some are pretty obscure. But even if you don't know a particular rule/law, you can be punished by the judge. Also, you may think what you have done is not a violation of a law or rule, but if the judge disagrees with you (meaning the Judge agrees with the Cop who gave you the ticket), you will still be fined. It's the judge who decides what the law says or the rule means, not the person who was ticketed.

The same principles apply to posting here. If you don't know the rules, or if you think you are within the rule, you may still be moderated or even banned, no matter how much you believe you are right. You can always appeal to the modlist, and your position will be discussed (and sometimes the moderators will even agree with you--it has happened), but if the moderators find you to be wrong, your post will remain hidden and repeating such behaviour may result in a ban.

Thanks Qui-Gon, that was the principle I was trying to state. However you have raised one point that may need clarifying - What if the poster was genuine & was unaware (asides from the obvious rules), will they be notified of their error to prevent them making the same mistake which may lead to a ban?

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