Oh are you really that blind?

The market is not so free as you claim it is.

Just ask yourself, who decides which goods are imported? The customers? No.

And who made it impossible to those countries to live independently? It was the Western Economy which made them be dependent on exporting only a few goods and then stopped buying just these goods when the countries wanted to put up their own industry (with borrowed money) besides these mono-cultures. It's not the gov'ts of these countries who made their people poor. It's the Global Capitalism.

You want shoes, I sell you shoes. There's no issue at all. If you don't want to pay my price, you don't. If I don't want to accept what you offer, I don't. We are both free to participate or not, and that is the definition of free, and that is the definition of the free market.

They want to cut costs? Why don't they begin in the top levels, like CEOs or something?

Because you could divide the entire salary and benefit package of the highest paid 1000 people at a place like GM and everyone else would get a couple of hundred bucks in one paycheck, once. Of course, that wouldn't solve even one problem, wouldn't make the company more competitive, wouldn't pay down debt or change market conditions, or anything else.

It would, however, destroy the company. So, for in exchange for a one-time payment of a few hundred bucks, the people who got paid that get to lose their jobs. Few if any of them are going to make that trade.

Sure it IS possible to create poverty, actually those who create wealth for a few at the costs of others do make those others poor.

Man, then Oprah and Michael Moore must be REALLY REALLY REALLY skrewing people hard. I mean, they make millions more than most CEOs. They must be creating poverty left and right, taking their money right out of the mouths of the poor.

Do you really believe the people in Africa and North Korea have chosen to starve?

Well, you and Waite seem to think that wealth is created out of whole cloth. Yet they aren't doing it. Those out of work UAW workers aren't doing it either. If I were them, I would just choose to create wealth so I could spend it.

I mean, it's just that easy, right?

Do you really believe the majority of Indians chose to live of less than a Dollar per day while some few there don't know which place they shall put their millions?

I think that some people are capable of earning substantially more than others. And that those others will not support them out of hand. Michael Moore for example. Oprah. Babs Streisand. These are exceedingly rich people that will not do as you would have them do.

Do you really think Mexican people leave their families and maybe even their tiny fields heading for the States just for the adventure of it? They have no choice! It's either leaving the family and go where jobs are offered and work there (even illegally) or watch their beloved ones starve while starving themselves.

I think these people seek to make better lives for themselves and it is so miserable where they live that they are smart to leave and try to make a better life for themselves. More power to them. Now, if Oprah and Moore would just quit skrewing them so badly, maybe they'd have a chance.

Capitalism, the system you are so adoring, made them poor enough to take such desperate measures.

This is one of the most stupid things I've ever seen you say. "Capitalism," as you use it there, is the system they are coming to, to find jobs to make their lives better. They are leaving the insanely socialistic Mexico because the socialistic system there destroys wealth. You should be thrilled with that place. All the laws and rules and gov't meddling you could ever want.

[snip]

Do you really think that people take up temp jobs or other jobs with substandard wages because they agree with them? They take them because THEY DO HAVE NO CHOICE! I know enough engineers and people with master degrees - even with excellent certificates - who work in temp companies or as burger-flippers or as waiters, just to have a job, just to not live on welfare, because THERE IS no job according to their qualifications here for them.

Then provide it for them Thorin. If you think someone has a right to a job at someone else's expense, then you should be providing it for them. If you think that because someone has some degree that they have a right to a job, what happens when others who disagree with you will not provide those jobs? I mean, you won't, so why should they? Because you think they should?

Don't hold your breath, they don't care what you think.

Are they MAKING their millions, or aren't they rather getting paid by their producers, being kind of employed by the media system which sells their shows and DVDs?

You don't have to exploit people to become rich. Even if I sold a million copies of a self-produced CD to a price of $0.05 more than the price of blank CDs (which could be afforded by everyone), giving me a win of $0.05 per item (which is little), I'd make 50K bucks without exploiting anyone. But I would get big trouble by the big media industry and their influence to the gov't.

So you think wealth is created out of nothing? Money makes more money in this capitalistic society. You have to be rich to become richer, else the risk of investing anywhere is just too high.

Oh so you're bringing up some well-paid media persons as example for rich people? Why are you refusing to mention real exploiters like Bill Gates, like the Waltons, like Dassler, Albrecht, Buffet, Cox, Abramovich, etc.?

Since when is Mexico a socialist country? Only because they try to be more social than the States, the economic system is the same: capitalism.

Oh, so the jobs are at the employers expense? Hell, it's not the worker exploiting the employer, it's the employer exploiting the worker! It's those who refuse to pay the worker what their work is actually WORTH who are responsible that workers have to sacrifice their spare-time to take up a second or third job.

It's like the other broken record you always bring up again: "The market can't bear higher wages". That's the silliest excuse I've ever read.

"The market" can bear millions of CEO salaries, and millions of Dollars as Golden Handshakes when managers move to other companies but not a rise of wages according to the inflation rate?? "The market" can bear rising prices for daily needs and declining prices for luxury articles, but can't bear appropriate wages for those who produce these goods? Forget it.

did you just set higher goals for yourself and make sacrifices in order to achieve those goals?

Like avoiding military service and passing out food stamps for a living... ;)

They want to cut costs? Why don't they begin in the top levels, like CEOs or something?

"Capitalism," as you use it there, is the system they are coming to, to find jobs to make their lives better.

But when they get here, they find out that it's nothing but a sham... ;)

They want to cut costs? Why don't they begin in the top levels, like CEOs or something?

When you punish people for being successful, you remove all incentive for being successful.

Why go to medical school for 8 years when your earnings are equal to that of a high school dropout hauling garbage?

I thought everyone knew that us people who have children get resentful of all those people who have never had children but still expect other people's children to subsidise them through their taxes when they get old.

What about another side to that coin....
I am single, no children. But I still have to pay to support the public school systems every year when I pay my property taxes!

"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

I thought everyone knew that us people who have children get resentful of all those people who have never had children but still expect other people's children to subsidise them through their taxes when they get old.

What about another side to that coin....
I am single, no children. But I still have to pay to support the public school systems every year when I pay my property taxes!

Yes, well said. I don't have children and I have paid income taxes and taxes of interests all my grown up life to support the public daycare, the public schools, the public after-school care, the free educations. I even support the welfare mothers who have several children without having a job to support themselves and their children. I support the subsidies handed out to all families with children under 18, subsidies all families with children are entitled to get, fixed by law, no matter how high their income is, and I support the grants given to all children living at home, the socalled Cafe money, which they are entitled to get no matter how high an income their parents have, a substantial amount of money these young people can go and spend on what they want, clothes, cd's, Friday and Saturday nights out, etc.

I don't think I owe anything to those children who will pay for my very little public retirement pension. Old-age pensioners have less money per month to spend on necessities than the Cafe money for those home living teenagers and post teenagers.

Oh, and I also support the health care system where parents can take their children with the slightest sneeze to have them examined by a doctor just to be told that their child is suffering from a common cold. Not to mention all the infertility treatments couples get here to be able to have children ...

I thought everyone knew that us people who have children get resentful of all those people who have never had children but still expect other people's children to subsidise them through their taxes when they get old.

What about another side to that coin....
I am single, no children. But I still have to pay to support the public school systems every year when I pay my property taxes!

Wow - what community-friendly folks we have here... ;)

I thought everyone knew that us people who have children get resentful of all those people who have never had children but still expect other people's children to subsidise them through their taxes when they get old.

What about another side to that coin....
I am single, no children. But I still have to pay to support the public school systems every year when I pay my property taxes!

..and of course you benefit indirectly from that. Would you really like to live in a society full of uneducated people? Where would the vets come from who look after your kitties? Children are everyone's responsibility whether you chose to have them or not. They are what the world you will live in will become.

It's my generation that you paid for to become your doctors and your nurses, your vets, your pet food makers, you kitty bed designers..and so on...and you need the next generation as well to keep things going when you are no longer able to do things for yourself. Money well spent if you ask me.

True enough. I guess the shoe was on the other foot when I was a child, and when I went to work and bought my own home, it was my turn to pay for those behind me. Gotta make sure we have a new generation of properly trained kitty bed designers!!

*confused* I am not used to people just agreeing with me like that...

He he, you need to get out more...