that same PC needed 3rd party software to use it's 1 MB of RAM...

That shouldn't have been necessary. The 8086/8's 16bit memory controller should have been able to access all 1MB (as was the limit). That's odd.

It's not odd at all. You might want to work on your binary arithmetic and also look at the history of the PC. 16 bits will address 64k of memory. It takes 20 bits to address IMB. Hence the limitation many programs had for only being able to access 64k of memory. The top 4 bits of the 20 were used for paging memory in 64k blocks.

Oh.And everything above 640k was allocated to video RAM, addon cards and the BIOS. It took some clever trickery to make more than 640k available and than only with the 802086 and above as it needed 21 bits.

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Be lucky

Neil

I hear ya! Not only did various of my first computers use cassette storage, I even sold machines like that. Score one for the "old guys" LOL!

I've been doing microcomputers since 1976, and have the volume one "Byte" magazines to prove it. I started on a time share mainframe in 1975. ;^)

I think I got you beat. I used a GE-265 in 1970. It had 23 meg Byte drives that weighed 3 tons. Needless to say, the school (ASU) owned it. I am sure someone can do even better.

IBM 1620 -- in 1969 (and assembly language -- on cards)

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that same PC needed 3rd party software to use it's 1 MB of RAM...

That shouldn't have been necessary. The 8086/8's 16bit memory controller should have been able to access all 1MB (as was the limit). That's odd.

Yes, but in the PC architecture, the top 384k is used for memory mapped I/O, video, and the BIOS ROMs. Only the first 640k is addressable RAM.

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Not so odd. Just like today's computers some of the memory was lost to the BIOS. I can remember a couple of the early ones that you could tweak to get rid of that stuff after it was finished booting then you could use all of the memory.

The memory that was lost to the BIOS should have been the upper 384K, with 640K being accessible by DOS. Unless they're referring to recovering some of the 384K with the software...

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It's not odd at all. You might want to work on your binary arithmetic and also look at the history of the PC. 16 bits will address 64k of memory. It takes 20 bits to address IMB. Hence the limitation many programs had for only being able to access 64k of memory. The top 4 bits of the 20 were used for paging memory in 64k blocks.

Oh.And everything above 640k was allocated to video RAM, addon cards and the BIOS. It took some clever trickery to make more than 640k available and than only with the 802086 and above as it needed 21 bits.

Umm.... thanks, but I already knew all that. Instead of insinuating that I didn't, you might want to ask next time.

I'm very aware that 384K was allocated to upper memory and was (more or less) inaccessible without software. It is/was my assumption that he couldn't access the 1MB entirely - which should be possible for the machine, even if the OS is limited to 640K.

If he was referring to the fact that he needed software to access over th3 640K, then he should have said that, because the way it was stated made it sound like he couldn't access the whole of 1MB for the machine.

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that same PC needed 3rd party software to use it's 1 MB of RAM...

That shouldn't have been necessary. The 8086/8's 16bit memory controller should have been able to access all 1MB (as was the limit). That's odd.

Yes, but in the PC architecture, the top 384k is used for memory mapped I/O, video, and the BIOS ROMs. Only the first 640k is addressable RAM.

LOL Thank you all! As per my other responses, I know that only 640K is accessible by DOS, but the whole of 1MB should still be accessible by the hardware itself.

If he was talking about a memory extender that allowed access to more than the 640K, then that makes more sense.

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I hear ya! Not only did various of my first computers use cassette storage, I even sold machines like that. Score one for the "old guys" LOL!

I've been doing microcomputers since 1976, and have the volume one "Byte" magazines to prove it. I started on a time share mainframe in 1975. ;^)

I think I got you beat. I used a GE-265 in 1970. It had 23 meg Byte drives that weighed 3 tons. Needless to say, the school (ASU) owned it. I am sure someone can do even better.

IBM 1620 -- in 1969 (and assembly language -- on cards)

Gotcha beat;) Military Burrors vacumn tube machine in 1958. Later after finishing college I programmed a IBM 650 which used a combination of plug wires, punched cards, and a drum memory. That was in 1961. Worked on the GE 225 and 235 systems after that.
Good ole days eh!LOL

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When we finally figure it all out, all the rules will change and we can start all over again.

IBM 1620 -- in 1969 (and assembly language -- on cards)

IBM 1620, in 1965. Fortran, entirely on cards. It was a one-pass compiler.

You punched your program cards, then made up an input deck of three items:
1. the compiler
2. your program
3. the subroutine library

If you were so lucky as that all the cards read in without a read check, then the sequence was:

1. compiler cards read through, then as your program cards were read the punch would punch output cards for the compiled code, then as the subroutine library was read large parts would be ignored, but the subroutines actually used by your program would be copied card for card into your new output deck.

2. The resulting deck was now your compiled program ready to run, by putting it into the card reader. Assuming all was well, and your program actually had some output, it would appear as punched cards.

3. You carried the punched cards over to the "listing machine", a standalone printer that read your cards and printed.

Bugs were _way_ more painful then.

The next year the local numerically controlled machine tool tape generation company that owned the 1620 got a hard drive, and we thought we died and gone to heaven because the compiler and subroutines lived on the hard drive. The big advantage was the reduction in read checks. The card reader was not of the air pick sort, so very slight imperfections in the cards stopped everything.

I never thanked my high school math teacher enough for arranging all this in 1965.

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"In case you don't know the replacement server will arrive on Friday."
You have been saying that for over a week now, With Sun just down the road from you, you could have walked down there picked it up and walked back by now!! I have shut down my systems because of your "it's going to be another day" bull! If it's so important that your asking the public to help you with this program, then why in the hell did you not have a backup system incase this very thing happened?? This is not the first time you lost a server and the folks doing this work have had to set on there ass while you ran around looking for a system to take up the slack!! And the fact that any computer could run your data base and server XX amount of time files to the public means you could have had a cheap home system as a backup to server a time file so folks doing the work would not be waiting for over a week on YOU! all it really needs to do is run the data base that folks log into and get XX amount of work, heck a Max or and old Pentium 200MHz Pro could do that!! It does not have to be a $20,000 SUN system... D'oh O'pps Yup some of us are computer literate and some of us even design and build them for a living! D'oh... Your notebook could do the job, so get a computer on line and get the damn job running..

Yeah I said that.

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Hey, Rev.
I can't believe that you are coming off so negative. Where is the love of God in the things you said? I am sorry that you felt inconvenienced, but maybe a positive suggestion would have gotten the message across without all the vinegar? The words that are said & the way they are said do matter. Please think about the impact that what you say may have on someone, both the person you are posting to, and other people reading the forum. If you have suggestions, like about a temporary back-up server, and really want to help make it work, I think the suggestions would be taken much more seriously. Since you stated that you build units, do you have insite that Matt could use to keep things running more smoothly, positive suggestions?

God bless you!

Bonnie

p.s. Matt, thanks for the updates!

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(I forget the term for them, maybe yard goats?

Yard mule sounds familiar.

"Yard Mule" it is... although I've also heard them reffered to as "yard goat"s!

Note that they ARE street-legal... just underpowered for anything beyond city traffic. (about 260 Hp, while a current-generation road truck has at least 200 more horses under the hood...

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Hello, from Albany, CA!...

many carriers (read -- trucking companies) charge by the mile, using "rand mcnally's - household movers guide". Basically it picks points in a city and measures the shortest road miles between points. It uses this to both charge customers and pay drivers. If you're a trucker, it probably seems like every departure and destination is on the "far side" of these points and they have to eat those miles. Of course there are fuel surcharges, and different prices for LTL (less than load) and full load. Then there's the "green zone" (no, not earth friendly kind of thing). The N.E states (NY, NJ, etc) generally take longer to drive a mile in due to congestion and higher fuel prices, so companies kick in (and charge) a couple extra pennies per mile in those states.

The point picked is usually the town's City (Town) Hall. You've got the name of the book wrong, though - the Trucking companies use the Rand McNally Road Carriers Guide. Most trucking destinations are nowhere near city hall, of course - trucks need lots of (flat!) room to park.

LTL stands for "Less than Trailer Load": a load that doesn't fill a trailer. (the smallest over-the road trailer I know of is a 32 foot trailer) LTL and full trailer loads are usually charged by the pound or ton-mile. (I.E. so many pound-miles or so many ton-miles) The driver is paid (on long-haul routes) by the mile. This may explain (to the non-trucker) why truckers always seem to be steaming in traffic jams - they aren't getting (in some cases) even minimum wage!

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Hello, from Albany, CA!...

I remember using personal computers when cassette recorders were the "bulk storage" device for PC's, 160K, 5 1/4 inch single sided floppies and CPM <grin>. 16 Kb was quite a bit of memory. The first one I played with was a TRS-80 Mod 1. However though, I wasn't around when they "invented" dirt ... but that was a long time ago <very big grin>!

I hear ya! Not only did various of my first computers use cassette storage, I even sold machines like that. Score one for the "old guys" LOL!

I've been doing microcomputers since 1976, and have the volume one "Byte" magazines to prove it. I started on a time share mainframe in 1975. ;^)

I think I got you beat. I used a GE-265 in 1970. It had 23 meg Byte drives that weighed 3 tons. Needless to say, the school (ASU) owned it. I am sure someone can do even better.

The first computer I used was an IBM 360-23. (in 1973)(Don't worry, if you've never heard of this one - it really was a -25 with a few wires moved around! The model was an "educational discount model") I've since had the oppertunity to use older hardware than that - an IBM 1401 (second generation - discrete transistors) that the Federal government was using into the 80's. (Remember when your tax refund check was a punch card? This was the machine that produced them! [for the western region])

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Hello, from Albany, CA!...

United Parcel Service (the UPS I was reffering to...) has the "zone" system so that a person shipping across town, or within 100 miles, (etc) doesn't pay for the extra fuel a package going across the country would need... there are 8 zones, based on the distance the package is moving (note that a package moves from the shipper to the nearest UPS facility, from there to the nearest "lumping" facility [if the nearest facility isn't a "lumping" facility...] to the destination's nearest "lumping" facility, to [if the "lumping" facility isn't the same as...] the nearest UPS facility to the destination, to the destination.) Generally, if you're watching the package via tracking, you can only see the last facility the package moved through...

Note that the "lumping" facilities take a large number of packages from (say) the San Francisco Bay Area, and put them all on one truck, bound for (say) the Chicago, Illinois area. (actually there's enough traffic so that about 6 trailers go this route, daily,<snip>...])

Actually, and to also disagree with an earlier post of yours, UPS would probably take those six trailers for Chicago over to the nearest railroad intermodal loading facility, where they would be put on a train for Chicago.

In the SF area, there are two possibilities: They can give them to BNSF Railway, which will take them southeast through San Bernadillo, northern Arizona and New Mexico, far northern Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, and Illinois, ending up at Willow Springs, IL. The trailers will be unloaded and moved by (I forget the term for them, maybe yard goats? Small tractors that aren't street legal) over to the "lumping" facility without ever leaving the property. From there, the lumps will be broken up and spread around to local distribution centers (in my case, Addison, IL, which [without looking at a map] I think is actually farther away than Willow Springs).

The other possibility is to give the trailers to Union Pacific, which would take them over Donner Pass, through Reno and Salt Lake City, across Wyoming, Nebraska, and Iowa to Rochelle, IL, where they would be unloaded and driven the ~50 miles to Willow Springs to be "de-lumped".

Not only is the railroad cheaper than paying all those drivers (and the number of people willing to drive long-distance is rapidly dwindling; most would rather stay close to home and spend time with the family), it's also much more fuel-efficient and less polluting. And as long as UPS delivers the trailers to the railroad by the agreed-upon time every day, the railroad will be pretty reliable about getting them to the other end on a specified schedule.

UPS and most other shipping companies would implode if there were suddenly no trains to move their trailers for them.

David

I'm not saying that UPS may not use the train occasionally, but the vast majority of UPS travels by truck. While wandering the country as a big-rig driver, especially on I-40, (Barstow, CA to Oklahoma City, OK - 3 round trips, & one more west-bound run) which parallels BNSF's route that you're talking of, I've noted many trains carrying "pigs" (piggy-backed truck trailers) and I've never seen either a FedEx or a UPS trailer on one such train - many other carriers were noted, though (All from the competition, though - I never noted the carrier I worked for... [C.R. England]) Agreed that it would be more fuel-efficient and less polluting, but they don't do it that way!

UPS drivers don't drive the whole (for example) SF to Chicago route - typically they would drive to (say) Sparks, Nv, and return to SF (with different trailers). A team (two drivers) would take a sleeper cab tractor, and continue the trip from Sparks to Salt Lake City, UT and return the next day. This would continue all the way to Chicago... the driver(s) getting relieved at either 8-10 or 16-20 hour intervals (depending on whether a single or a team is driving)

I worked for the air transport part of UPS... (specifically: loading planes)

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Hello, from Albany, CA!...

Swift Transportation says:

* Mileage pay based on Rand McNally’s Household Mover’s Guide shortest route.


CR England says:

*All paid miles are based on Rand McNally HHG Mileage Guide miles. Dedicated fleets offer various pay programs.

My wife want's to spend a couple years doing long haul cross country as husband wife team, so I was looking around and trying to decide if buying our own truck would be worth while.

Swift Transportation says:

* Mileage pay based on Rand McNally’s Household Mover’s Guide shortest route.


CR England says:

*All paid miles are based on Rand McNally HHG Mileage Guide miles. Dedicated fleets offer various pay programs.

My wife want's to spend a couple years doing long haul cross country as husband wife team, so I was looking around and trying to decide if buying our own truck would be worth while.

Hmm, maybe you do have the right book... but the truck drivers use the "road carrier guide" for the maps, restrictions, overhead clearence, etc... They are put out by the same company, so the milage figures are probably the same in any case...

Re: doing a husband/wife team as long-haul O-O's... this puts stress on a marriage, but probably less stress than just the husband doin' it. (The wife knows what the husband is doin' at all times...) Also, make sure that whatever tractor you buy is in excellent operating order. (Repair bills can eat your profits, if you get the wrong tractor!)

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.

Hello, from Albany, CA!...

"In case you don't know the replacement server will arrive on Friday."
You have been saying that for over a week now, With Sun just down the road from you, you could have walked down there picked it up and walked back by now!! I have shut down my systems because of your "it's going to be another day" bull! If it's so important that your asking the public to help you with this program, then why in the hell did you not have a backup system incase this very thing happened?? This is not the first time you lost a server and the folks doing this work have had to set on there ass while you ran around looking for a system to take up the slack!! And the fact that any computer could run your data base and server XX amount of time files to the public means you could have had a cheap home system as a backup to server a time file so folks doing the work would not be waiting for over a week on YOU! all it really needs to do is run the data base that folks log into and get XX amount of work, heck a Max or and old Pentium 200MHz Pro could do that!! It does not have to be a $20,000 SUN system... D'oh O'pps Yup some of us are computer literate and some of us even design and build them for a living! D'oh... Your notebook could do the job, so get a computer on line and get the damn job running..

Yeah I said that.

Brilliant!!!! Very well said. Now the server's up, but of course it's half-ass up, giving us WU's but impossible to connect to.

Ever since the change to boinc, seti's really gone downhill.

Hey guys. Got my systems waiting for the work. As it takes nothing from me to wait for the work and really no skin off my nose. Thanks for all your efforts on this!

I wish a few more people would have your attitude about it. It seems some people think that if they can't get work, the world is going to end or there is a financial loss of some kind on their part.

I'll never understand what the big deal is.

There is a financial loss on my end... called my electric bill.

Hey guys. Got my systems waiting for the work. As it takes nothing from me to wait for the work and really no skin off my nose. Thanks for all your efforts on this!

I wish a few more people would have your attitude about it. It seems some people think that if they can't get work, the world is going to end or there is a financial loss of some kind on their part.

I'll never understand what the big deal is.

There is a financial loss on my end... called my electric bill.

Even if you had been crunching SETI you'd still have the electric bill. Quit complaining about something you have no control over and it the electric bill is that big a deal to you. Turn em all off.

To those who complain about how the project is run:

SETI was almost gone under the old. It is still not funded by anyone but private donations. The money is tight, and they do not have any to just go out and buy tons of computers to make this work 100% all the time.

The staff is small. Just a handful on SETI alone. These people are employed at probably a lower rate than if they worked anyplace else. They like their job, that is why they stay. Their jobs are in jeopardy if there is not enough money.

Not every company is willing to donate huge machines to make this system run. SETI has gotten some luck, but they've also had to buy things. This last Sun server was NOT FREE. It was bought at a reduced price.

You volunteer your time here. When it's down what is the loss? Your computer sits idle for a while and you save electricity. There are no guarantees given that there will always be work. They have been close to totally running out of work before. It can happen again.

Yelling at these people for your enjoyment is just ridiculous. There is no reason for this. I dare you to make a project of this magnitude and not have issues. Do you have the money, time, skills to do it?

All of this is considered experimental. It's never going to be more than that. So whatever works, whenever it works will all it ever will be. Your electric bill and computer buying does NOT HELP the project. It puts more pressure on the project. SETI sees no dollars from your high electric bill, or your super fast computers. It just feels the pain more.

Trying to please 600,000+ people at the same time is impossible.

My personal opinion is if you take this project so negatively, you are welcome to leave. Why endure the grief? This project is not for you if it is going to cause you a heart attack each time it goes down. What if it goes down forever, then where will you be?

Stop the complaining, go out with friends, enjoy life, this is just a project that can be run while you still have a real life.

If you really believe in the project, help with a DONATION so they can buy the newer machines, have backups, etc.

Consider what is going on, and think twice before you complain.

Hey guys. Got my systems waiting for the work. As it takes nothing from me to wait for the work and really no skin off my nose. Thanks for all your efforts on this!

I wish a few more people would have your attitude about it. It seems some people think that if they can't get work, the world is going to end or there is a financial loss of some kind on their part.

I'll never understand what the big deal is.

There is a financial loss on my end... called my electric bill.

Right, but you chose to be a part of the science. If the science has nothing for you, then you take the chance (and run the risk) of running idle. SETI@Home, nor any other project that I'm aware of, has ever promised 100% uptime at all times.

The financial loss you speak of is a small one compared to the good of the science you could be doing... but apparently that means little to you. If you're that damned worried about the electric bill, then just shut them off and save your money.

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