Timing is Everything (May 09 2007)

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Message 567143 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 14:28:05 UTC - in response to Message 567128.  

Brilliant!!!! Very well said. Now the server's up, but of course it's half-ass up, giving us WU's but impossible to connect to.

Ever since the change to boinc, seti's really gone downhill.



Yes, brilliant! Leave it to the ignorant to encourage the ignorant. SETI@Home was about to be shut down until BOINC came along and it was ported over. I suppose you'd rather be crunching nothing than running BOINC. If so... leave.
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Message 567147 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 14:34:18 UTC

Since I am running a heavy computations program I can just fill in with a few things here. To run a project like SETI at the budget they have is awesome. And the uptime they achieve is terrific.
To have a hundred percent uptime, which we are suposed to have by contract to our corporate sponsors, costs more than ten times the amount SETI has as a budget AND it requires 24/7/365 technicians "on the scene" adding to that cost. And still with all that money, the latest technology and the technicians we currently have 98.2% uptime.
So give it a rest on the pecking on Matt and the rest. They are doing a stunning work with what they have.

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Message 567148 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 14:35:43 UTC - in response to Message 567136.  

Hey guys. Got my systems waiting for the work. As it takes nothing from me to wait for the work and really no skin off my nose. Thanks for all your efforts on this!


I wish a few more people would have your attitude about it. It seems some people think that if they can't get work, the world is going to end or there is a financial loss of some kind on their part.

I'll never understand what the big deal is.



There is a financial loss on my end... called my electric bill.


Even if you had been crunching SETI you'd still have the electric bill. Quit complaining about something you have no control over and it the electric bill is that big a deal to you. Turn em all off.



They're running for no reason while all the while we get broken promises of tomorrow.


"Even if you had been crunching SETI you'd still have the electric bill."

Exactly, I would be having an elec. bill for crunching seti, but I'm not crunching seti.
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Message 567154 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 14:41:25 UTC - in response to Message 567148.  

They're running for no reason while all the while we get broken promises of tomorrow.


"Even if you had been crunching SETI you'd still have the electric bill."

Exactly, I would be having an elec. bill for crunching seti, but I'm not crunching seti.



They're doing the best they can! They are only a few people (three or five people from what I'm told). They even came in on their day off to get things running again.

Can't you cut them some slack? Your electric bill in minor compared to what they're doing. Or is that all you can think of: yourself.
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Message 567161 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 14:45:51 UTC - in response to Message 567147.  
Last modified: 14 May 2007, 14:51:00 UTC

In my opinion, Another common misconception I have seen is that distributive computing of any kind, let alone the large scale we process on, is or can function like a mature technology. From my software engineering, systems and communications studies ten years ago I can vouch that many of the concepts of such a system are in many ways new born and some aspects seti@home and the boinc infrastructure are the first operable such system.

Now to put that in the context of engineering as a whole, we have been building bridges for some 2000+ years and they still fall down in the most surprising and sometimes horribly disastrous ways, that is one aspect of how we discover, learn and improve. [ There are other boundaries being pushed here than looking for ET signals themselves ]

Just my 2 cents.

Keep up the great work!

Jason

"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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Message 567164 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 14:51:16 UTC - in response to Message 567154.  

They're running for no reason while all the while we get broken promises of tomorrow.


"Even if you had been crunching SETI you'd still have the electric bill."

Exactly, I would be having an elec. bill for crunching seti, but I'm not crunching seti.



They're doing the best they can! They are only a few people (three or five people from what I'm told). They even came in on their day off to get things running again.

Can't you cut them some slack? Your electric bill in minor compared to what they're doing. Or is that all you can think of: yourself.



yep, my machines, my connection, my elec. bill. If they are going to run a service of this magnitude, have decent machines and a decent connection.

Hopefully something worthwhile and decent comes along soon to the boinc infrastructure...
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Message 567167 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 14:58:02 UTC

I really get tired of all these cry babies. So we had a very long outage, probably the longest we have ever seen. But outages will occur from time to time. As for does that think it never happened on Seti-Classic, think again. The difference was that most times you didn't know about it when it happened. The software gave no feedback as it does now. I remember spending a week trying to upload results on Classic with no idea of what was going on.

No project can run on a shoestring and stay up or have work all the time. I understand that even a well funded project like Rosetta ran out of work because of the migration of Seti users during this outage.

Other projects only supply work part time.
Boincsimap only has work for 10 to 15 days at the beginning of the month.
LHC has been down for months now and even when it was running full time would only supply work in spurts then have nothing for weeks at a time.

Come on people, grow up. From our perspective this is a hobby. There is a hope of producing useful science but it isn't worth wasting all this time worrying about a few days of having an idle computer.

Join other projects, that's why Boinc was developed in the first place, to share the wealth. My systems are never without work to do.

Boinc V7.2.42
Win7 i5 3.33G 4GB, GTX470
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Message 567169 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 14:59:18 UTC - in response to Message 567164.  
Last modified: 14 May 2007, 15:01:14 UTC

yep, my machines, my connection, my elec. bill. If they are going to run a service of this magnitude, have decent machines and a decent connection.

Hopefully something worthwhile and decent comes along soon to the boinc infrastructure...


Read what Demiurg and jasongee just posted to you and tell me you still have the same expectations.

If you're that worried about the electricity, then join another project (you know, BOINC supports multiple projects - it isn't just an upgrade to the old SETI!), that way your CPUs won't go idle and you won't be wasting your bill.

How do you propose they get those "decent machine and decent connections"? With what money?
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Message 567174 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 15:03:54 UTC - in response to Message 567140.  

To those who complain about how the project is run:

SETI was almost gone under the old. It is still not funded by anyone but private donations. The money is tight, and they do not have any to just go out and buy tons of computers to make this work 100% all the time.

The staff is small. Just a handful on SETI alone. These people are employed at probably a lower rate than if they worked anyplace else. They like their job, that is why they stay. Their jobs are in jeopardy if there is not enough money.

Not every company is willing to donate huge machines to make this system run. SETI has gotten some luck, but they've also had to buy things. This last Sun server was NOT FREE. It was bought at a reduced price.

You volunteer your time here. When it's down what is the loss? Your computer sits idle for a while and you save electricity. There are no guarantees given that there will always be work. They have been close to totally running out of work before. It can happen again.

Yelling at these people for your enjoyment is just ridiculous. There is no reason for this. I dare you to make a project of this magnitude and not have issues. Do you have the money, time, skills to do it?

All of this is considered experimental. It's never going to be more than that. So whatever works, whenever it works will all it ever will be. Your electric bill and computer buying does NOT HELP the project. It puts more pressure on the project. SETI sees no dollars from your high electric bill, or your super fast computers. It just feels the pain more.

Trying to please 600,000+ people at the same time is impossible.

My personal opinion is if you take this project so negatively, you are welcome to leave. Why endure the grief? This project is not for you if it is going to cause you a heart attack each time it goes down. What if it goes down forever, then where will you be?

Stop the complaining, go out with friends, enjoy life, this is just a project that can be run while you still have a real life.

If you really believe in the project, help with a DONATION so they can buy the newer machines, have backups, etc.

Consider what is going on, and think twice before you complain.

Pooh Bear, awesome comments!!

I have to agree, why all the negative comments about a volunteer project? Out of all the projects out there, SETI has survived by the skin of their teeth with next to nothing in their pockets. The guys behind the scenes constantly work overtime, and get no compensation for it due to lack of funding. This last weekend, a couple of them were in there with the hopes of being able to get Thumper back on track to make us all happy. They probably won't get paid for doing that either, so they are also "volunteering" their time to please us.

And to quote Pooh Bear one more time:


My personal opinion is if you take this project so negatively, you are welcome to leave. Why endure the grief? This project is not for you if it is going to cause you a heart attack each time it goes down. What if it goes down forever, then where will you be?


Very good words to live by.
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Message 567175 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 15:04:02 UTC - in response to Message 567164.  

yep, my machines, my connection, my elec. bill. If they are going to run a service of this magnitude, have decent machines and a decent connection.

Hopefully something worthwhile and decent comes along soon to the boinc infrastructure...

Fundamental misunderstanding. They are not providing a service. They are conducting a scientific experiment, and inviting you to come along for the ride if you want to.
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Message 567177 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 15:06:45 UTC

Just as a thought here about what Aurora Borealis said about LHC...
LHC has a budget that is close to 10.000 times the budget of SETI... Think about it.

For those not acquinted with LHC, it is run by the worlds largest research consortium, the CERN. They more or less have a blank cheque from the EU to run enormous plasmaphysics, particlephysics and fusion experiments on the worlds largest super colliders (yes in plural). Their uptime? Well, lower than what Matt and the guys achieve. And they do not even say that they are out of work due to being finnished.
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Message 567178 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 15:07:45 UTC - in response to Message 567175.  
Last modified: 14 May 2007, 15:09:29 UTC

Fundamental misunderstanding. They are not providing a service. They are conducting a scientific experiment, and inviting you to come along for the ride if you want to.


LOL....

Agreed. I learned in about the first 20 seconds I was a BOINC participant that commentary like that falls into two categories:

Some people are naturally clueless....

Others have to learn to be that way! ;-)

Alinator
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Message 567184 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 15:12:33 UTC - in response to Message 566584.  
Last modified: 14 May 2007, 15:16:21 UTC




I remember using personal computers when cassette recorders were the "bulk storage" device for PC's, 160K, 5 1/4 inch single sided floppies and CPM <grin>. 16 Kb was quite a bit of memory. The first one I played with was a TRS-80 Mod 1. However though, I wasn't around when they "invented" dirt ... but that was a long time ago <very big grin>!



I hear ya! Not only did various of my first computers use cassette storage, I even sold machines like that. Score one for the "old guys" LOL!

I've been doing microcomputers since 1976, and have the volume one "Byte" magazines to prove it. I started on a time share mainframe in 1975. ;^)

I think I got you beat. I used a GE-265 in 1970. It had 23 meg Byte drives that weighed 3 tons. Needless to say, the school (ASU) owned it. I am sure someone can do even better.


The first computer I used was an IBM 360-23. (in 1973)(Don't worry, if you've never heard of this one - it really was a -25 with a few wires moved around! The model was an "educational discount model") I've since had the oppertunity to use older hardware than that - an IBM 1401 (second generation - discrete transistors) that the Federal government was using into the 80's. (Remember when your tax refund check was a punch card? This was the machine that produced them! [for the western region])


My first computer was an IBM 1130 that I used in college (still have my old fortran programs on punch cards). Before I left, the science department bought one of the very first IBM Series/1 computers, but it seems like it had some early computational problems that IBM needed to sort out.


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Message 567188 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 15:16:29 UTC - in response to Message 567115.  

Hmm, maybe you do have the right book... but the truck drivers use the "road carrier guide" for the maps, restrictions, overhead clearence, etc... They are put out by the same company, so the milage figures are probably the same in any case...

Re: doing a husband/wife team as long-haul O-O's... this puts stress on a marriage, but probably less stress than just the husband doin' it. (The wife knows what the husband is doin' at all times...) Also, make sure that whatever tractor you buy is in excellent operating order. (Repair bills can eat your profits, if you get the wrong tractor!)

Just the husband????? heck, it's her idea. LOL

New Kenworth 2008 T-660 with 86" sleeper, it what's caught the eye. We're going way off topic. Especially, since they already have the server. LOL I know I use the rand mcnally road carrier guide in my 28.8 straight truck and pickup. I also like the "exit guide" by exit source. shows what's available at which exits. very cool.
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Message 567189 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 15:20:18 UTC - in response to Message 567167.  

[snip] So we had a very long outage, probably the longest we have ever seen.

Doesn't everyone remember the Sept 2005 2-3 week outage???
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Message 567190 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 15:20:49 UTC

Hey, let her drive and you just put up your feet and serve her burgers when she comes home:-)
Good luck in your trucking venture!
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Message 567193 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 15:24:20 UTC - in response to Message 567188.  
Last modified: 14 May 2007, 15:27:03 UTC

deleted, don't know what happened.
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Message 567198 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 15:35:13 UTC
Last modified: 14 May 2007, 15:37:12 UTC

And by the way, when I look upwards of the thread I see a lot of green stars. Except on you JJnobody. If you truly had donated religiously you should be in green too. I can dig that you do not want to show it normaly, but now I am calling you out so to speak. Turn on the green star for a couple of hours or be quiet.
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Message 567203 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 15:37:58 UTC - in response to Message 567128.  

Brilliant!!!! Very well said. Now the server's up, but of course it's half-ass up, giving us WU's but impossible to connect to.

Ever since the change to boinc, seti's really gone downhill.[/quote]

The change to BOINC has got nothing to do with the current problem OLDAGE is the kit that SETI is using is in all probibility the same as it was using when it was SETI Classic as funds become available They are replacing the old servers with new and more reliable ones.
Old enough to know better(but)still young enough not to care
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Message 567207 - Posted: 14 May 2007, 15:45:43 UTC - in response to Message 567203.  
Last modified: 14 May 2007, 15:46:17 UTC

ooooh . stuff's happening :D

"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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Message boards : Technical News : Timing is Everything (May 09 2007)


 
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