> The
> moment that virtually anyone tries to say something positive about the BOINC
> project, or about BOINC/S@H, he is all over them with derogatory posts. Its
> not that he critizes BOINC, its his close-minded demogoguery against BOINC
> that has myself (and many others) cheesed off at him. Be careful of who you
> defend. An ancient proverb states that if a man sleeps with dogs, he wakes up
> with fleas.

So his being derogatory gives you the right to be derogatory? Doesn't that make you as bad as him? And I will defend who I please when I believe that they are right.

Edit: I have to add: the moment AZWoody says anything at all, you and others are all over him with derogatory posts. On that occasion, his post was giving a legitimate point of view, yet he was again attacked (and the fact that he was called a "wazoo coder" by a developer does not make it right, either).

I feel the need to clarify my position on a few things.

I welcome code reviews; generally it helps improve the quality of the code base. There is always going to be somebody out there that knows more than I do about some quirk in a library, development tool, or development process. One of the main tenants of open source is the process of public participation via code reviews and code checkins.

Actually one of the things that excite me most is the fact that there are people more knowledgeable than I am planning on contributing some of there knowledge on specific processors to the S@H application which I intend to learn from.

What I find hard to stomach is after having written a feature or changing a feature, which I might have already spent tens of hours on, researching that feature, reviewing that feature, writing that feature, and then testing that feature, to have somebody tell me I’m wrong without offering any evidence or proof of where I’m wrong.

Now I understand I may in fact be wrong about something, if I wasn’t then I would never be responsible for any bugs being introduced into the overall system.

Now on several occasions, dating as far back as February, Woody has tried to infer that we or I didn’t know what we were doing when implementing a feature. On several of those occasions I have tried logic and reason but run into nothing but a brick wall. On several of those occasions I went through the research process again in case I missed something and burned many more hours just trying to find some evidence or footnote that proved I made a mistake somewhere.

After many wild goose chases, I cannot afford to take him at his word anymore, it just costs too much. So I offer up whatever evidence I can and challenge him to prove me wrong. This is the classic case of “boy who cried wolf.”

People have pointed him to the web version of the source tree many of times, which contain the checkin notes as well. Sometimes his comments completely ignore whatever information is publicly available and that really gets to me, especially when he already knows where to get that information.

I can be annoyed at some of the comments he makes because I know he is smarter than that and should know better, but I hold him no ill will.

I am making a public apology to Woody for referring to him as a wazoo coder, it was wrong of me to do so, since I’ve never seen any code he has written.

----- Rom
BOINC Development Team, U.C. Berkeley

Hey, ROM!

Could you and some of the other "project people" visit the "Questions and Problems" forums occasionally? That's where a lot of folks post their "Questions" and "Problems". The only place any "official" statements seem to be made is in this "crunching" forum, which many people don't visit when they have "Problems" or "Questions".

In particular, check out this message about a serious problem since the upgrade. The thread contains links to only [b]some[/url] of the many related threads in that forum.

Dear Rom,

I read these message boards regularly, and I am well aware of how abrasive AZWoody can be. But maybe your logic and reason had more of an effect than you know. It seems to me anyway, that he has become a little less abrasive and a little more willing to offer constructive criticism (despite the fact that he does not seem to have much more tact than he ever did).

The reason I started this thread (and I did not mention you or anyone else as being the source of the attacks on AZWoody), was to point out to some of the most hurtful contributors (even those who call themselves, ironically enough "cheerleaders") that participation on these boards should not be limited to those who only have "positive" comments. You very eloquently made the case for this proposition, and your apology, though not directed towards me*, would hopefully have some weight in convincing some of those who blindly attack others to pause. It seems to me that no matter how boorish a person who posts here can be, they may still be making that post to try to improve the project.

Edit: *I'm not saying I need or deserve an apology.

Ok. I want to clarify something. I was one of the first dubbed a cheerleader, and perhaps the only named specifically. I don't remember if it was AZWoody who came up with it or not, but he was certainly one of the biggest pushers of the term. But those considered "cheerleaders" by those so adimately opposed to things around here did not give themselves the name. It was given to them. Some chose to embrace it. I have not.

Woody, and a few others, have consistantly ignored the fact that while I supported BOINC and defended the way it was released, that I never claimed it perfect. They ignored that I have acknoledged BOINC has bugs (although a large amount of the troubles have always been related to the server side of things). He has ignored the fact that I have encouraged patience over malice. He ignored that I have consistantly denounced name-calling, insults, and mudslinging regardless of what faction a person is in (even when he has directly insulted me in other ways than simply calling me a cheerleader). He has ignored the fact that I try to point out that we are all here for more or less the same reasons and we should work with eachother to find and correct problems rather than work against eachother. He has ignored the fact that I always try to help with whatever knowledge I have (and even criticized me for it). He has ignored that I am not one to hop on a bandwagon of support or dismay for the project.

Woody and others have basically given a blanket to me and others while ignoring the facts and the tone that I constantly try to convey. Maybe it is more applicable to some than me, it doesn't matter. I don't even care. Had it been given to me as more of a show of my support for BOINC than a term to say that I treat BOINC as holier than holy, then perhaps I would be a little more accepting of the title. But it would still just would not have been me. I see no reason to put my name on a list or be given some sort of title to make my stance on the project known -- this post as well as my others should make it perfectly clear that I support the direction of BOINC and those putting so much time and effort into making things work. Slinging insults at eachother, the project, and/or the Dev Team doesn't help anything. When I was in grade school, they taught us about constructive criticism, and there are certain people like Woody who I rarely see that from (although I have indeed seen it a few times). It should also be clear that I don't expect or feel entitled to anything from the SETI project except what is given to me.

I realize that the clarification itself is rather minor, but I feel it is somewhat important to distinguish that it was a given name given by others in order to demean, not a self given title. And while I have have been a fairly strong proponent of BOINC, I have also spoken out against the actions/words of some others also supporting BOINC who I felt were not helping matters either. And as a final note, I also have never said that complaints should not be made -- in fact quite the opposite. I encourage complaints -- so long as they are specific and not the generic "everything sucks, all is bad, woe is me, i'm leaving" type posts. Those are the kinds of complaints that don't help anything. What sucks? What isn't working? What led up to the problem? What are the error messages if any? What do you want to see improved? Complaints should detail some sort of legitimate error, problem, or bug and when appropriate, have some kind of constructive input or suggestion on how to improve. Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth just as it has been for basically the entire time BOINC has been a public "release."

Chris



> Dear Rom,
>
> I read these message boards regularly, and I am well aware of how abrasive
> AZWoody can be. But maybe your logic and reason had more of an effect than
> you know. It seems to me anyway, that he has become a little less abrasive
> and a little more willing to offer constructive criticism (despite the fact
> that he does not seem to have much more tact than he ever did).
>
> The reason I started this thread (and I did not mention you or anyone else as
> being the source of the attacks on AZWoody), was to point out to some of the
> most hurtful contributors (even those who call themselves, ironically enough
> "cheerleaders") that participation on these boards should not be limited to
> those who only have "positive" comments. You very eloquently made the case
> for this proposition, and your apology, though not directed towards me*, would
> hopefully have some weight in convincing some of those who blindly attack
> others to pause. It seems to me that no matter how boorish a person who posts
> here can be, they may still be making that post to try to improve the
> project.
>
> Edit: *I'm not saying I need or deserve an apology.
>
>
>

Hi Chris,

A number of people seem to like being called a "cheerleader", though the ones who bother me most are the ones who refuse to see the problems here and then harrass anyone who points them out. I haven't looked at your posts, but I don't remember calling you a cheerleader, or directing my comments in this thread at you (in fact, until others brought up names, I have tried to avoid assigning blame to particular people).

Out of curiosity, I did look at AZWoody's posts going back more than two weeks (he has more than 200), and except when he was responding to an attack, he was mainly explaining things to people who were having problems or commenting on problems with this project. And not to repeat myself too often, that's what this forum is for. When I told people, no one in particular, that they were mindnumbingly stupid (later changed to: their attacks were stupid) to taunt and mistreat someone who threatens to leave out of frustration, I was also attacked.

It sounds like you have a personal dislike for the guy. So if he attacks you and you attack him back, when does it end? You should be proud that you support BOINC in an evenhanded way, but you can not say that if you personally disparage him.

This thread was started to show that even when posts to this board are complaints, they may have value, no matter who they are from. The example I used was not insulting, except for a remark about Pope Dave. Some of the responses to this thread were simply justification for treating AZWoody badly in other posts. Rom Walton apologised, professional that he is. But I don't think apologies are necessary, just a stop to such destructive behavior. Don't you agree?

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This 'SPACE' Rented.

The anonymity of the Internet, brings
forth, yet another EXPERT.

M7 Seti@h Berkeley's Staff Friends Club ©

> Hi Chris,
>
> A number of people seem to like being called a "cheerleader", though the ones
> who bother me most are the ones who refuse to see the problems here and then
> harrass anyone who points them out. I haven't looked at your posts, but I
> don't remember calling you a cheerleader, or directing my comments in this
> thread at you (in fact, until others brought up names, I have tried to avoid
> assigning blame to particular people).

The "magnificant 7" (named by someone other that me, btw) have even included this in their sigs! Seems "cheerleader" is good to some, and Pascal even includes "RAH-RAH" at times in his posts!
>
> Out of curiosity, I did look at AZWoody's posts going back more than two weeks
> (he has more than 200), and except when he was responding to an attack, he was
> mainly explaining things to people who were having problems or commenting on
> problems with this project. And not to repeat myself too often, that's what
> this forum is for.

Thank you.. I'm glad someone noticed! There are some that view any post by me as negitive... I've been accused of all sort of things like being some "JQ" guy, using multiple login names, etc, etc, etc... There seem's to be a set of people that would diss me even if I told them they just won the lottery!


> When I told people, no one in particular, that they were
> mindnumbingly stupid (later changed to: their attacks were stupid) to taunt
> and mistreat someone who threatens to leave out of frustration, I was also
> attacked.


This doesn't suprise me a bit. There is a set of users that feel they can only feel secure by attacking those they don't agree with. Heck, I don't care when they attack me! I laugh!

The folks that I hit in my posts are generally part of "the 7", although, I do admit a few against a the few that have backed them up! And yes, the Dev crew has been in my scope too, but hey, has this whole thing been up for more than 3 consecutive days in the last month?
>
> It sounds like you have a personal dislike for the guy. So if he attacks you
> and you attack him back, when does it end? You should be proud that you
> support BOINC in an evenhanded way, but you can not say that if you personally
> disparage him.

I can't post anything without being attacked, as it seems that my posts are a magnet for an attack.. Tom, the posted you used to start this, is a Prime example
>
> This thread was started to show that even when posts to this board are
> complaints, they may have value, no matter who they are from. The
> example I used was not insulting, except for a remark about Pope Dave. Some
> of the responses to this thread were simply justification for treating AZWoody
> badly in other posts. Rom Walton apologised, professional that he is.

I'll say here, that I think Rom is a "good guy", and posts between he and I discussing real stuff, go pretty much unnoticed. (they might be buried in another thread). Rom has no reason to apoligie to me, as I can be a real ahole! I do accept it however, and offer the same in return!

> > Hi Chris,
> >
> > A number of people seem to like being called a "cheerleader", though the
> ones
> > who bother me most are the ones who refuse to see the problems here and
> then
> > harrass anyone who points them out. I haven't looked at your posts, but
> I
> > don't remember calling you a cheerleader, or directing my comments in
> this
> > thread at you (in fact, until others brought up names, I have tried to
> avoid
> > assigning blame to particular people).
>
> The "magnificant 7" (named by someone other that me, btw) have even included
> this in their sigs! Seems "cheerleader" is good to some, and Pascal even
> includes "RAH-RAH" at times in his posts!


HI Woodrow remember what you said about me post worthless links now do we remember hmmmmmmmm will here they are again. I see in other post that you are being kind and gentle we will see. Oh and Hi Thomas how are you.........opppsss forgot RAH RAH SIS BOOM BAH


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> >
> > Out of curiosity, I did look at AZWoody's posts going back more than two
> weeks
> > (he has more than 200), and except when he was responding to an attack,
> he was
> > mainly explaining things to people who were having problems or commenting
> on
> > problems with this project. And not to repeat myself too often, that's
> what
> > this forum is for.
>
> Thank you.. I'm glad someone noticed! There are some that view any post by
> me as negitive... I've been accused of all sort of things like being some
> "JQ" guy, using multiple login names, etc, etc, etc... There seem's to be a
> set of people that would diss me even if I told them they just won the
> lottery!
>
>
> > When I told people, no one in particular, that they were
> > mindnumbingly stupid (later changed to: their attacks were stupid) to
> taunt
> > and mistreat someone who threatens to leave out of frustration, I was
> also
> > attacked.
>
>
> This doesn't suprise me a bit. There is a set of users that feel they can
> only feel secure by attacking those they don't agree with. Heck, I don't care
> when they attack me! I laugh!
>
> The folks that I hit in my posts are generally part of "the 7", although, I do
> admit a few against a the few that have backed them up! And yes, the Dev crew
> has been in my scope too, but hey, has this whole thing been up for more than
> 3 consecutive days in the last month?
> >
> > It sounds like you have a personal dislike for the guy. So if he attacks
> you
> > and you attack him back, when does it end? You should be proud that you
> > support BOINC in an evenhanded way, but you can not say that if you
> personally
> > disparage him.
>
> I can't post anything without being attacked, as it seems that my posts are a
> magnet for an attack.. Tom, the posted you used to start this, is a Prime
> example
> >
> > This thread was started to show that even when posts to this board are
> > complaints, they may have value, no matter who they are from.
> The
> > example I used was not insulting, except for a remark about Pope Dave.
> Some
> > of the responses to this thread were simply justification for treating
> AZWoody
> > badly in other posts. Rom Walton apologised, professional that he is.
>
> I'll say here, that I think Rom is a "good guy", and posts between he and I
> discussing real stuff, go pretty much unnoticed. (they might be buried in
> another thread). Rom has no reason to apoligie to me, as I can be a real
> ahole! I do accept it however, and offer the same in return!
>
>
>

This 'SPACE' Rented.

The anonymity of the Internet, brings
forth, yet another EXPERT.

M7 Seti@h Berkeley's Staff Friends Club ©

Hi Thomas how are you.........opppsss forgot RAH RAH SIS BOOM BAH

Hi Pascal,

And your point is . . .?

> Hi Thomas how are you.........opppsss forgot RAH RAH SIS BOOM BAH
>
> Hi Pascal,
>
> And your point is . . .?
>
It's just an example of how AZ woody(me) attracts bottom feeders
It's got no purpose, other than to attack me on something that shouldn't be attacked....

Oh well. It's a great example of why I get PO'ed and attack in other threads......

> > Hi Thomas how are you.........opppsss forgot RAH RAH SIS BOOM BAH
> >
> > Hi Pascal,
> >
> > And your point is . . .?
> >
> It's just an example of how AZ woody(me) attracts bottom feeders
> It's got no purpose, other than to attack me on something that shouldn't be
> attacked....
>
> Oh well. It's a great example of why I get PO'ed and attack in other
> threads......
>
>

Well, I think that one was directed at me. I have a little history with Pascal also. But when he does those things, I just look at his picture and feel sad.

Edit: He took his picture down! Could be a good sign.

Thank you very much for bringing some kind of balance to this forum. You certainly speak for the thousands of silent ones.

I more or less addressed that some "like" being called a cheerleader in my last post. The point of clarification was that the name was originally given to them. I read Woody's response to this post (I'm not entirely sure why he didn't reply directly to me, but that is neither here nor there) and he confirmed it wasn't him who came up with the term. I kind of thought it might not have been him as I mentioned before. But really it is just sort of a classic case of a group taking some term or classification meant to be an insult into a term of endearment.

I also pointed out that Woody has on occasion posted a good useful post that hasn't been inflammatory. However a good deal of his posts have, including some directed at me personally. I have not attacked him back. I posted a fairly strong response to his attacks on me, but never reduced to the level of insulting him. I do dislike Woody, I dislike the way he behaves on here frequently and that is what I have attacked. I mentioned before that I don't support people insulting others on here for any reason -- even as a response to others. I have said many times that I am proud to support BOINC and have always tried to be evenhanded. Again - I try to make it a point keep negative responses directed at the comments in the post and not the individual making the post.

So, that said, the point of my replying to your post was to point out that "cheerleader" was a given name, and some of those deemed cheerleaders, are really people who just want to see things run well without petty insults and such much like yourself. I make no apologies for anything I have said (with the exception of one which I apologized for quite some time ago). And the destructive behavior is something I have long fought against. Being civil to one another, as well as the Dev Team and the Project is something everyone should work for around here.

And in response to AZ himself, I've seen you make some good posts, some of which didn't even have people responding by attacking you. In fact, some of the replies were of encouragement to continue the trend. I liked what I saw in that. Hopefully that trend will continue.

Anyway, I'm late leaving for class.
Chris

> Hi Chris,
>
> A number of people seem to like being called a "cheerleader", though the ones
> who bother me most are the ones who refuse to see the problems here and then
> harrass anyone who points them out. I haven't looked at your posts, but I
> don't remember calling you a cheerleader, or directing my comments in this
> thread at you (in fact, until others brought up names, I have tried to avoid
> assigning blame to particular people).
>
> Out of curiosity, I did look at AZWoody's posts going back more than two weeks
> (he has more than 200), and except when he was responding to an attack, he was
> mainly explaining things to people who were having problems or commenting on
> problems with this project. And not to repeat myself too often, that's what
> this forum is for. When I told people, no one in particular, that they were
> mindnumbingly stupid (later changed to: their attacks were stupid) to taunt
> and mistreat someone who threatens to leave out of frustration, I was also
> attacked.
>
> It sounds like you have a personal dislike for the guy. So if he attacks you
> and you attack him back, when does it end? You should be proud that you
> support BOINC in an evenhanded way, but you can not say that if you personally
> disparage him.
>
> This thread was started to show that even when posts to this board are
> complaints, they may have value, no matter who they are from. The
> example I used was not insulting, except for a remark about Pope Dave. Some
> of the responses to this thread were simply justification for treating AZWoody
> badly in other posts. Rom Walton apologised, professional that he is. But I
> don't think apologies are necessary, just a stop to such destructive behavior.
> Don't you agree?
>
>

> > > Hi Thomas how are you.........opppsss forgot RAH RAH SIS BOOM BAH
> > >
> > > Hi Pascal,
> > >
> > > And your point is . . .?
> > >
> > It's just an example of how AZ woody(me) attracts bottom feeders
> > It's got no purpose, other than to attack me on something that shouldn't
> be
> > attacked....
> >
> > Oh well. It's a great example of why I get PO'ed and attack in other
> > threads......
> >
> >
>
> Well, I think that one was directed at me. I have a little history with
> Pascal also. But when he does those things, I just look at his picture and
> feel sad.
>
> Edit: He took his picture down! Could be a good sign.





I did take it down, it is undergoing extensive repair and restoration. Let me see I quess Woodrow was talking about some other person when he said,
> "It's just an example of how AZ woody(me) attractsbottom feeders
> > It's got no purpose, other than to attack me on something that shouldn't
> be"

Woodrow it is all about deliver and man your deliver sucks and I was trying to help in my own little way I am not and educationed man.
My knowledge has come slow and hard through hard work and study lots of study and then doning the job, making errors and learning from those errors, and I have had to many know-it-alls telling me what to do and that I should do it this way or that and frankly most of them where idiots. I have been on the bottom a few times but I always work my way back up in spite of 'them'. I am going to wait and see how things go and I will always be a front and center with my POMS POMS giving BOINC the old RAH RAH RAH SIS BOOM BAH and posting my links.............have a nice day

And you Thomas you do not aprove of my picture, well I quess we are even I never did like anyone who wears a bow tie.....

This 'SPACE' Rented.

The anonymity of the Internet, brings
forth, yet another EXPERT.

M7 Seti@h Berkeley's Staff Friends Club ©

Dear Pascal,

I've been going back and forth about whether I should reply to this, but what the heck, I'm on my lunch hour . . .

> Woodrow it is all about deliver and man your deliver sucks and I was trying to
> help in my own little way I am not and educationed man.

You don't have to be an educated man to treat people with respect. I told someone else in this thread "So if he attacks you and you attack him back, when does it end?" In my opinion, it ends when one person ends it. It is not necessary, in my opinion, to taunt people and celebrate their frustration by calling them a troll, or saying you are glad to see them leave and more work for me.

> My knowledge has come slow and hard through hard work and study lots of study
> and then doning the job, making errors and learning from those errors, and I
> have had to many know-it-alls telling me what to do and that I should do it
> this way or that and frankly most of them where idiots. I have been on the
> bottom a few times but I always work my way back up in spite of 'them'. I am
> going to wait and see how things go and I will always be a front and center
> with my POMS POMS giving BOINC the old RAH RAH RAH SIS BOOM BAH and posting my links.............have a nice day

If your posts included more helpful advice, it would be a lot easier for me to take your attitude; but simply stating that everything is going to be all right is not helpful.

> And you Thomas you do not aprove of my picture, well I quess we are even I
> never did like anyone who wears a bow tie.....

I never said I didn't like your picture, I said that it made me sad. But apparently you don't like me because I wear a bow tie. Well, I'm very happy to be a member of a choral group and that's a picture of me just before a performance. Otherwise, I don't wear a bow ties. Is that better?

> The anonymity of the Internet, brings
> forth, yet another EXPERT.
>

Actually, the anonymity of the Internet seems to bring forth, rudeness and unfair attacks. No matter what you or anyone else thinks, most people who post to this forum (no matter how abrasive they are) are trying to help. Personal attacks are just noise and do not add to the discussion here, no matter who they come from.

Finally, if I have offended you in the past (or now) I am sorry. I am not sorry that I point out what I think are unfair and damaging comments made on these boards.

Thank you Tom for a very entertaining thread.

At times I too have been caught up in the heat of the battle and my fingers just itch to type up a reply. Sometimes I lose the fight to hold myself back, but your posts have made me sit back and think twice about what I am about to do. Although it may feel good momentarily to let it out, I know it just adds fuel to the fire and makes me look a hypocrite for bashing someone because they are bashing someone else.

You speak with eloquence, intelligence and reason. I'd like to suggest that besides being a member of a choir, that you join a debating team too.

Bill

Thanks Bill.
Are you in Canada? My wife and I just came back from Western Canada, and we had a great time. I could learn a thing or two about politeness from Canadians. (Actually, this post belongs in Cafe SETI.)

I believe I am one of those guilty of playing a little rough on the boards lately. I personally didn't like the way I had to do it, but sometimes only the squeaky wheel gets the grease. It has been my contention for a long time, through the original Boinc alpha/beta testing and release, that the participants were not being kept properly informed. With such large groups it is a given that the desemination of information is imperative and this was not being done to most users satisfaction.

I don't like trying to blast anybody, but when I was trying to get my point across, I felt like that Brazilian marathon runner who had that deranged men push him off the track. Instead of listening to what I was trying to get across, my messages were getting interfered with at all levels. This required me to take a more offensive posture to cut through all the static. In doing this I became no better than the people who were trying to interfer with my message.

The bottom line was that I wanted people to listen and think about the situation, and for the administrators to give all the volunteers their due. In other words; Wassup. If they screwed up tell us. We know that people make mistakes, myself included; just let us know, and get on with it. The worst thing they can do is try to cover something up because someone will eventually catch you at it.

In case some of you hadn't noticed, the admins of this project are now paying closer attention to the volunteers and keeping them better informed. I hope that I had something to do with it. If not, oh well, I did try whether right or wrong.

There is one thing that does bother me, is that when someone says "everything is going to be alright." You hear people saying that even to the dying. It is an empty cliche. My first instinct is to ask, prove it.

We're all here to see that this project suceeds one way or another. At times I may sound pessimistic, but I'm not a pessimist; and conversely I'm optimistic but not a jerk knee optimist.

Rant over, have a good day and see you all around the campus...

---

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