So I suppose that a Church of Calm Chaos would be out of the question??

We already have a place picked out..right down the road from Labbie...lol

* sorry...just attempting to lighten the mood a bit *

---

Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

So I suppose that a Church of Calm Chaos would be out of the question??

We already have a place picked out..right down the road from Labbie...lol

* sorry...just attempting to lighten the mood a bit *

Heck, I am not even sure what Enigma is for and against these days! And he's our teammate!

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

So I suppose that a Church of Calm Chaos would be out of the question??

We already have a place picked out..right down the road from Labbie...lol

* sorry...just attempting to lighten the mood a bit *

Heck, I am not even sure what Enigma is for and against these days! And he's our teammate!

That's easy Sarge. As I understood it: Faith - ok, church as organisation - nope.
This view is not mine, but I can accept & tolerate it. Because I experienced both kinds of churches - the kind which is "packaging and selling a product for profit", and the kind which is rather a club than a organized thing.

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Well, and I also don't like the idea of folks who are preaching for money. That's not my understanding of the phrase "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give" (Mat 10:8) . The church I'm tending to, for example, has no priests by profession nor missionaries by profession, everything they do for church is during their spare-time or time-off, and for free. They even save money to become able to serve on a mission. It's just their offering to God.

When I was in a hospital about 10 years ago, I discussed with a protestant priest. She said she grudged everyone who has strong faith, because: she had lost hers during her theological studies! For her the Bible she was supposed to preach was just like any product to sell. I couldn't understand that. How can someone honestly teach and preach who doesn't belief in what they talk about? Even I can't sell stuff I'm not at least 99% convinced of.

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Account frozen...

So I suppose that a Church of Calm Chaos would be out of the question??

We already have a place picked out..right down the road from Labbie...lol

* sorry...just attempting to lighten the mood a bit *

Heck, I am not even sure what Enigma is for and against these days! And he's our teammate!

That's easy Sarge. As I understood it: Faith - ok, church as organisation - nope.

I suspected this, but if that's what Enigma means, let's let him say it for himself.

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

Sure. But the source of most ethic rules is based on the Ten Commandments Moses taught to his people several thousands of years ago, means they are based in religion - so the circle closes again.

Granted that some ethical standards originated in religious texts, however this does not mean they cannot be borrowed and adjusted, improved as required for modern society. The ten commandments are pretty much 'common sense' today, even if people dont abide by them, this is a problem of enforcement. However 2000 years ago, they probably weren't common sense or even common which is likely why they were created in the first place.

I also mentioned that organised religion is used as a tool to suppress (and manipulate and……). Note that what individuals believe is safe enough (it’s between them and their God) and cannot be used to exert control, extract money or for example start wars. I would go so far as to say that organised religion is an outright threat to the continued existence and survival of humanity period.

"Has been used", and "can be used" rather are terms I would use, because to generalize this, means to lump all organized religions together, which is entirely wrong. "Organized religions" only are built upon the urge of people who believe the same way, to meet and teach each other. That this has led to some of the most cruel things in history can't be blamed on the organizing itself, but on the people who became the several leaders of those organizations. That it is working otherwise, you can see at least in some of those newer churches and some small religious groups. Nowadays it is said: a church is not just a building or an organization, it is meeting people believing in God the same way.

You forgot to mention, that organised religion also seeks to conquer and convert entire populations... whilst spreading disease and killing thousands. Also how about starting wars, creating social tensions and discrimination (i could go on and on and on).

If some of the most cruel periods in history were because of a particular religion, why can't the entire religion be held accountable? You are suggesting that organised religion has no "group accountability", and this is exactly where the ethics in the bible stop and where mankind needs to start.

I don't think the bible suggests "how to run a religion" (this was left to man)Inside any organised religion there are politics, power and money (just like a corporation) and this is where its gets rather ugly and dangerous. This is what has led to past atrocities and will lead to future atrocities. This is why all organised religion should be disbanded.

If you want to meet with your friends to talk about religion, go to their house, or meet in the park. Don't build a church, collect money, appoint positions of power and a hierarchy. Churches are just like a corporations, especially when people start talking about church sites as branches (just like a bank!).

Which corporation owns more property than any other on the planet??

All organizations, parties and churches, have been and still are trying to establish ethical standards and practices... unfortunately they are slightly different: for some folks too out-of-date, for some folks to progressive; it takes the free decision and intelligence of each individual to meet within the extremes.

The fact remains, that organised religion is not required to form a framework of ethics for people to abide by.

May i ask why you were searching for god?

Sure. After I finally stopped my desperate struggle to find logical reasons, and leaned back, saying with Hamlet: "And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy", I simply experienced that opening my mind to accepting that things simply can't explained yet, opened my mind also to others.

Logical reasons for what? I don't understand. What actually motivated you to 'search for god' in the first place, why was there a need??

Entire governments do it. Look at non secular governments for example.
If organised religions were dissolved, this problem would go away.

Only because even governments do it doesn't mean that it's right. History has shown that government often make even horrible mistakes. As mentioned above: it's not the thing of being organized, but who leads that organization. Even non-organized preachers can be either righteous or impostors. Would you want to dissolve your entire government if you saw they were making trouble, or would you just want the president and several persons in charge to be exchanged? That's similar in organizations - and even in churches, too. It's the people, not the organization itself, who give them the direction to go.

It depends how long the trouble was brewing. If the government had a long history (say 100 years) of problems etc without much improvement certainly.... throw them out! Obviously they are worthless and have no idea what they are doing or are corrupt beyond repair. Let someone new have a go.

Unfortunately with organised religion this is not possibly why? Because they are not accountable to anyone except god!? Has the catholic church ever had an 'ethical audit'? or an audit of any kind?

Corporations and Governments are accountable and if they keep screwing up, they go bankrupt and disappear or are dissolved (revolution?).

So I suppose that a Church of Calm Chaos would be out of the question??

We already have a place picked out..right down the road from Labbie...lol

* sorry...just attempting to lighten the mood a bit *

Heck, I am not even sure what Enigma is for and against these days! And he's our teammate!

That's easy Sarge. As I understood it: Faith - ok, church as organisation - nope.
This view is not mine, but I can accept & tolerate it. Because I experienced both kinds of churches - the kind which is "packaging and selling a product for profit", and the kind which is rather a club than a organized thing.

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Well, and I also don't like the idea of folks who are preaching for money. That's not my understanding of the phrase "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give" (Mat 10:8) . The church I'm tending to, for example, has no priests by profession nor missionaries by profession, everything they do for church is during their spare-time or time-off, and for free. They even save money to become able to serve on a mission. It's just their offering to God.

When I was in a hospital about 10 years ago, I discussed with a protestant priest. She said she grudged everyone who has strong faith, because: she had lost hers during her theological studies! For her the Bible she was supposed to preach was just like any product to sell. I couldn't understand that. How can someone honestly teach and preach who doesn't belief in what they talk about? Even I can't sell stuff I'm not at least 99% convinced of.

Exactly... you hit the nail on the head. I have a major issue with religious profiteering.... when i was living in the U.S.A. switching on the cable to hear some the 'TV Gospels' almost made me sick to the stomach. It's not just in the U.S.A. of course and there cable, its just a good sales medium.

I have close friends that have very strong faith and their church is more like a club. This is what i would call 'mostly harmless' and for a greater good. However as you have rightly pointed out Ninja, (and this is what i was hoping for) some of those 'good church people' are basically athiests peddling a product.

This is probably extreme but i will say it....consider the possiblity of an athiest at the 'top of the rung' in any major denomindation.

So I suppose that a Church of Calm Chaos would be out of the question??

We already have a place picked out..right down the road from Labbie...lol

* sorry...just attempting to lighten the mood a bit *

Do it KM, its' good business LOL!! Look at Scientology (at least they are upfront with the costs....LOL).

So I suppose that a Church of Calm Chaos would be out of the question??

We already have a place picked out..right down the road from Labbie...lol

* sorry...just attempting to lighten the mood a bit *

Do it KM, its' good business LOL!! Look at Scientology (at least they are upfront with the costs....LOL).

SWEET!!!!!

Now I just gotta figure out where I am gonna get the money to move to New Mexico....lmao

---

Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

So I suppose that a Church of Calm Chaos would be out of the question??

We already have a place picked out..right down the road from Labbie...lol

* sorry...just attempting to lighten the mood a bit *

Do it KM, its' good business LOL!! Look at Scientology (at least they are upfront with the costs....LOL).

If you take the guys into Scientology or something like it, guys, I'll have to quit. You know Chuck already accused me of being in league with them, or at least with Tom Cruise?

---

Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

So I suppose that a Church of Calm Chaos would be out of the question??

We already have a place picked out..right down the road from Labbie...lol

* sorry...just attempting to lighten the mood a bit *

Do it KM, its' good business LOL!! Look at Scientology (at least they are upfront with the costs....LOL).

If you take the guys into Scientology or something like it, guys, I'll have to quit. You know Chuck already accused me of being in league with them, or at least with Tom Cruise?

Easy Sarge. We are still working out the details...lmao

Anyway....didn't mean to hijack the thread....

---

Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

....consider the possiblity of an athiest at the 'top of the rung' in any major denomindation.

Here's one a friend sent me the other day...


The Atheist...
 
An atheist was walking through the woods.  

 "What majestic trees"!  
 
 "What powerful rivers"!  
 
 "What beautiful animals"!
 
He said to himself.
 
As he was walking alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. He turned to look. He saw a 7-foot grizzly charge towards him. He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder & saw that the bear was closing in on him.
 
He looked over his shoulder again, & the bear was even closer. He tried to run even faster, but then he tripped & fell on the ground. He rolled over to pick  himself up but saw that the bear was right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw & raising his right paw to strike him.  At that instant the Atheist cried out,

"Oh my God!"
 
And then Time Stopped. The bear froze. The forest was silent.
 
As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky.  "You deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist and even credit creation to some cosmic accident." "Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer"?  

The atheist looked directly into the light and said... "It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask You to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps You could make the BEAR a Christian"?
 
"Very Well," said the voice.

The light went out. The sounds of the forest resumed. And the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed his head & spoke:

"Lord bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen."


( I had to ROTFLMAO...)

So I suppose that a Church of Calm Chaos would be out of the question??

We already have a place picked out..right down the road from Labbie...lol

* sorry...just attempting to lighten the mood a bit *

Do it KM, its' good business LOL!! Look at Scientology (at least they are upfront with the costs....LOL).

If you take the guys into Scientology or something like it, guys, I'll have to quit. You know Chuck already accused me of being in league with them, or at least with Tom Cruise?

Easy Sarge. We are still working out the details...lmao

Anyway....didn't mean to hijack the thread....

OK, I'll go get the phone number for who is selling the "house of worship" and try to find a Navajo or Hopi Spiritual Leader so we can incorporate some of their practices.

We will need someone famous though. Keifer Sutherland lives out here most of his off time, is he OK Sarge?

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Calm Chaos Forum...Join Calm Chaos Now

So I suppose that a Church of Calm Chaos would be out of the question??

We already have a place picked out..right down the road from Labbie...lol

* sorry...just attempting to lighten the mood a bit *

Do it KM, its' good business LOL!! Look at Scientology (at least they are upfront with the costs....LOL).

If you take the guys into Scientology or something like it, guys, I'll have to quit. You know Chuck already accused me of being in league with them, or at least with Tom Cruise?

Easy Sarge. We are still working out the details...lmao

Anyway....didn't mean to hijack the thread....

OK, I'll go get the phone number for who is selling the "house of worship" and try to find a Navajo or Hopi Spiritual Leader so we can incorporate some of their practices.

We will need someone famous though. Keifer Sutherland lives out here most of his off time, is he OK Sarge?

LOL! Ummm ... backs out of the conversation and does more work ... .

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

So I suppose that a Church of Calm Chaos would be out of the question??

We already have a place picked out..right down the road from Labbie...lol

* sorry...just attempting to lighten the mood a bit *

Do it KM, its' good business LOL!! Look at Scientology (at least they are upfront with the costs....LOL).

If you take the guys into Scientology or something like it, guys, I'll have to quit. You know Chuck already accused me of being in league with them, or at least with Tom Cruise?

Easy Sarge. We are still working out the details...lmao

Anyway....didn't mean to hijack the thread....

OK, I'll go get the phone number for who is selling the "house of worship" and try to find a Navajo or Hopi Spiritual Leader so we can incorporate some of their practices.

We will need someone famous though. Keifer Sutherland lives out here most of his off time, is he OK Sarge?

LOL! Ummm ... backs out of the conversation and does more work ... .

Speaking of Scientology: Their book "Dianetics" was one of the only three books I ever dumped right after reading (and I own about 950 books and have read maybe three times as much in my entire life) - the other ones were A. Crowley's "Book of the Law" and the "Necronomicon". These three books were given to me between 1990 and 1991 by some "friends" of mine who knew that I was on my "quest"

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Account frozen...

So I suppose that a Church of Calm Chaos would be out of the question??

We already have a place picked out..right down the road from Labbie...lol

* sorry...just attempting to lighten the mood a bit *

Do it KM, its' good business LOL!! Look at Scientology (at least they are upfront with the costs....LOL).

SWEET!!!!!

Now I just gotta figure out where I am gonna get the money to move to New Mexico....lmao

Business ? Religion ! Oh Please. That would mean they are self serving and greedy. The only reason the catholics want open borders is to save the poor. All those new catholics wouldn't help their income or power.....wait a minute......never mind

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Speaking of Scientology: Their book "Dianetics" was one of the only three books I ever dumped right after reading (and I own about 950 books and have read maybe three times as much in my entire life) - the other ones were A. Crowley's "Book of the Law" and the "Necronomicon". These three books were given to me between 1990 and 1991 by some "friends" of mine who knew that I was on my "quest"

L. Ron Hubbard IMO was a much better sci-fi author than cult creator. His book "Battlefield Earth" is an excellent read, though of course it was butchered into a movie...

Well, but founding a church makes one richer than writing books (except your name is Stephen King)

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Account frozen...

Speaking of Scientology: Their book "Dianetics" was one of the only three books I ever dumped right after reading (and I own about 950 books and have read maybe three times as much in my entire life) - the other ones were A. Crowley's "Book of the Law" and the "Necronomicon". These three books were given to me between 1990 and 1991 by some "friends" of mine who knew that I was on my "quest"

L. Ron Hubbard IMO was a much better sci-fi author than cult creator. His book "Battlefield Earth" is an excellent read, though of course it was butchered into a movie...

Well, but founding a church makes one richer than writing books (except your name is Stephen King)

A sect will do, just change the story a bit!

I also read Dianetics. Some bizarre stuff in there....some of which the evidence seems to be correct, however the theory of why may be out, he was on or onto something....

Battlefield Earth and the Mission Earth series were not bad...

Enigma posted in part:

Battlefield Earth and the Mission Earth series were not bad...

I've wanted to read the Mission Earth series but I never find all the books in the series for sale at the same time at bookstores. If I'm going to read a series, I want to go from first book to last book instead of a period of days or months in between books. Admittedly, I don't have the willpower to just buy a book here and there until I collect them all and then read them.

I off tracked the thread somewhat. IMHO I do believe that the larger the church, the more likely it will stray from it's "path", because it gets mired in "worldly" business. Religion for money is so true in some cases.

Even if a church gets involved in "worldly" business, it depends on their leaders (not the "simple members") how the achieved money is handled then. It's a huge difference if 100% of the achieved money are spent for church stuff and re-investments - or if 50% go right to the private accounts of those church leaders and the 50% are spent for re-investments and salaries, and church sites and media stuff (in this order), and they have to collect offerings for the charity stuff...
If I remember right, I read that (for example) the Mormon Church had an own bank in their early days with very-low-rate credits to make sure that the members could settle and start a new existence without having to pay back twice as much due to the interests... But when the church needed money themselves, because their corporal income was not enough to maintain the buildings and to print books etc, they had to sell their own bank to another, more seculary one, to become "liquid" again... After that their intern and extern financial rules were revised and reformed, and now they are growing well and wealthy again...

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Account frozen...