FOR CRUNCH3R- WE ARE ON STRIKE!!!

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Message 327958 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 22:36:39 UTC

You DO realize that most of the mods are not project staff and aren't paid, right? The only thing that is being damaged by getting your donation back is the scientific work being done by seti@home. They are in the middle of using some of the donated money right now by installing the multi-beam receiver down in Arecibo. If everyone asks for their donations back they may have to take it offline and that means no more seti data being collected. If you want to complain about moderators, that is not the way to do it. Also when did this strike become about the mods? I thought it had to do with crunch3r. And therein lies the biggest problem with this "strike." WHY IS IT HAPPENING? I see different people on strike for different things. Eric (who is paid by the project) said something similar last night and I don't think anyone responded to him.
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Message 327968 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 22:47:54 UTC - in response to Message 327958.  

You DO realize that most of the mods are not project staff and aren't paid, right? The only thing that is being damaged by getting your donation back is the scientific work being done by seti@home. They are in the middle of using some of the donated money right now by installing the multi-beam receiver down in Arecibo. If everyone asks for their donations back they may have to take it offline and that means no more seti data being collected. If you want to complain about moderators, that is not the way to do it. Also when did this strike become about the mods? I thought it had to do with crunch3r. And therein lies the biggest problem with this "strike." WHY IS IT HAPPENING? I see different people on strike for different things. Eric (who is paid by the project) said something similar last night and I don't think anyone responded to him.

Toby, let me try to answer you here. If you go back a few weeks in the message history you will see that some of us came her to voice some concerns we had about the way the project was moving. There were issues with the credit system, with the application itself and a few other things we were trying to get addressed. Instead of trying to listen to us and understand our concerns, we were immediately stomped on, called names and told if we did not like it we could move to other projects. Some of the mods allowed all of this to happen without intervening and thus became a part of the problem as well. We continued to try to work out our issues and I even sent an e-mail asking for someone at Berkeley to intervene. We have tried our best to be heard and then the Crunch3r incident happened. For many of us that was the straw that broke the camel's back. As far as Eric is concerned, he is well aware of most of the issues we brought up because he did finally post a half way response that basically boiled down to "live with it".

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Message 327976 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 22:52:50 UTC - in response to Message 327957.  


Howdy folks,

Well in THIS thread at least, nobody as of yet has made fun of MY small contribution to SETI Science so I certainly will not flame anybody (I do not flame anyway so it's a moot point regardless). I must say however that I am a bit disappointed with the amount of mudslinging that has transpired between both groups. We all do what we can and every contribution is equally important.

(big snip)

Let's please just put the name-calling aside and deal with the real issues.

Once again, I am sorry this post got so long. Thanks for reading it anyway.

Dig



Well said Dig.

While there are some issues with S@H, the constant mudslinging on both sides as well as by the those in the middle does little to improve the situation.


To truly explore, one must keep an open mind...
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Message 327978 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 22:55:43 UTC - in response to Message 327468.  


Well, if there is no resolution or at least movement toward a resolution, you may find that many of us participating in the "strike" have no intention of coming back.


Then it would be nice if someone would tell us what would consitute a resolution.
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Message 327989 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 23:06:17 UTC

There's no such thing as a "strike" on volunteer projects. No one is paying you to crunch. For all that is being bandied about by a few SETI.USA members, it's telling that their top producer is still crunching away like crazy on SETI. {Now that's leadership!!} So are most of the usually active members on that team. A few percent at best on that team are withholding cycles (or at least caching up, with the intent of dumping in a week or so).

Who are you helping here? Do you think Matthias Pilch is getting any good out of this? Probably not...

Just my opinion, of course, and YMMV. :)
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Message 327992 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 23:08:42 UTC - in response to Message 326847.  
Last modified: 5 Jun 2006, 23:32:10 UTC

I hope you are wrong. But if that is TRUELY the case, then my continued participation in this project after the strike would be a HUGE ERROR. If the project directors don't care if work gets done or not, as you say, then we are ALL wasting our time and computers and money on this project. My hope is that they DO care about their participants, and that they DO care that the work gets done in a timely mannor. I think they DO care, but that they have been just taking us, the volunteers, for granted. They think that they will have access to all our crunching power, regardless of how we are treated. This strike is a means to show them that they CANNOT just take us for granted. Everyone thinks that this is ONLY about the credit reduction. But that is only ONE of the factors. There are so MANY reasons that have lead us to this unfortunate decision. What happened with Crunch3r, and the credit issues, were just the straw that broke the camel's back. Everyone who is taking part in this demonstration each has their own reasons. If it turns out to be true, that we are just simply not wanted or needed, then at the end of the strike, we can leave on a PERMINANT basis. We are hoping that this will be a wake up call to the devs, and hope that this will encourage them to make changes that will make participation in this project FUN once again. But there is no reason to crunch for a project that alienates and vilifies it's top producers.
Regards, Daniel.

Daniel you are NOT "on strike" you are just NOT REPORTING your crunched units! You are STILL crunching them! How does that play into your idea of "They think that they will have access to all our crunching power, regardless of how we are treated." Your words again "My participation in this strike consists of disabling network access for one week. Work will still get done for me, but just will not be reporting any for the duration of the strike. All my machines have been network disabled by 23:30 UTC."
Now which is it Dude? Either you think the people at Berkeley will feel the "strike", your word, but then you continue to crunch anyway!
Sort of like having your cake AND eating it too!!! I am on STRIKE but I am still crunching in the background, is what you are saying!!! HYPOCRITE!
Either crunch or don't, but stop the strike crap!!!
Me I AM crunching, if you stop, you and the others will be missed, but the workunits that you would have crunched WILL be crunched by others! And evidently by YOURSELF!!!
Sorry if this seems a bit harsh, it was not intended that way. It was intended as a way to show the hypocrisy of your Team being one of the leaders in the current "strike"! And your participation in it.

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Message 327997 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 23:13:03 UTC - in response to Message 327978.  


Well, if there is no resolution or at least movement toward a resolution, you may find that many of us participating in the "strike" have no intention of coming back.

Then it would be nice if someone would tell us what would consitute a resolution.

I must agree with Eric and others here who have expressed this same concern. I'm not kissing SETI-butt here, I am just trying to understand what is going on. What ARE your list of demands? You must have one, right?

If you are going out on strike I respect your right to do so but it seems pretty pointless if you do not have a set objective in mind. Could you possibly select one person to serve as spokesperson for the group and provide the project and the rest of us with some idea of what you wish to accomplish from all of this? I for one am very open-minded about your strike but would very much like to see a list of your demands. Compile them and label them 1, 2, 3, etc. and please let us know what you want.

Do you want Enhanced to go away and go back to the benchmarking system?
Do you want a public apology from Tony to Crunch3r?
Do you want a higher multiplier for the credit calculation?
Do you want Bush removed from the White House?

Specifics are needed here. Otherwise the title of the thread might as well read that you are 'Going on Strike for Elvis'. Please just let everyone know what specifically you would like to see out of this.

Thanks,

Dig

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Message 328001 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 23:16:56 UTC
Last modified: 5 Jun 2006, 23:19:59 UTC

Tip: Get a website (setistrike.com is available) and make a clear and concise list of grievances as well as a proposed solution to those grievances. You also need a contact person who can participate in negoatiations if they happen. Counting on people reading 2 weeks back on obscure message boards is not going to work. I am not supporting this strike but I'm tired of seeing people give a different reason for striking every time I turn around and I would like to see it resolved which can not happen in its current state. There must be some structure supporting the strike for it to be effective. Maybe there is but reading these message boards, it is not apparent to me. I have been busy at work and out of town on the weekends for the past couple of weeks and all I see now is a bunch of yelling without much direction.

EDIT: I see you beat me to the submit button, Digger :)
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Message 328008 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 23:21:04 UTC - in response to Message 327978.  
Last modified: 5 Jun 2006, 23:34:39 UTC


Well, if there is no resolution or at least movement toward a resolution, you may find that many of us participating in the "strike" have no intention of coming back.


Then it would be nice if someone would tell us what would consitute a resolution.


Eric:

I have removed this post. We will post a formal list of requests very soon.

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Message 328021 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 23:30:32 UTC - in response to Message 327978.  


Well, if there is no resolution or at least movement toward a resolution, you may find that many of us participating in the "strike" have no intention of coming back.


Then it would be nice if someone would tell us what would consitute a resolution.

I will take a whack at this Eric...if Berkeley would come up with a rule that only "approved" clients are allowed to be used it might go a long way towards ending this. "Approved" can mean several things..from only Berkeley apps to people like Crunch3r, Trux, TMR, etc, sending their app to Berkeley to get it approved BEFORE they distribute it. Berkeley could then modify the code slightly when non "approved" verions of the software come out nullifing any credits they would receive. I think that optimized versions of the software can be a help to the project because, as several people have stated, the workunits are being crunched faster and it shows that some people DO care and are even willing to go beyond the normal crunching time with their donations. In the long run it could even open the doors to Berkeley letting some of these people become "employees". You are always saying how overworked you are, some of these people could provide some needed places to bounce ideas off of.

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Message 328030 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 23:41:52 UTC
Last modified: 5 Jun 2006, 23:42:38 UTC

I knowwww but I'm a sucker for this kinda thing.

I had some posts deleted earlier this morning too. Earlier a couple of NAMELESS individuals were saying they were better than others because they had a higher RAC. I called them something and got my post deleted. Tehcnically it was a medical term found in any medical textbook but eh.

So I repeated the post, this time with a picture of the word, and that got deleted too :\\

Maybe this one won't get deleted!!
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Message 328031 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 23:41:52 UTC
Last modified: 5 Jun 2006, 23:42:12 UTC

Woops double post ignore this ^________^
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Message 328034 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 23:43:46 UTC - in response to Message 328008.  

Eric:

I have removed this post. We will post a formal list of requests very soon.


Yay! Seeing as how crunch3r is apparantly no longer the focus of the strike perhaps it would be best that this thread be shut down and another one be started to discuss the real issues here.
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Message 328042 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 23:51:11 UTC - in response to Message 328001.  


EDIT: I see you beat me to the submit button, Digger :)

LOL... that happens so rarely Toby. I usually take so long to construct and/or edit a post that by the time it finally reaches the public view I am 3 or 4 steps behind the rest of the group!

Dig

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Message 328044 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 23:55:21 UTC - in response to Message 327908.  

YOU CAN GET YOUR MONEY BACK!


Sad. Things don't go much lower than that.

Does anyone have a real life here? or is this place a magnet for Asperger's?

Let's get some perspective:
mmciastro was completely out of order and should apologise publicly to crunch3r. Pointing accusations in such a publicly petty and self righteous manner will never get anyone's willing cooperation, and I think backfired badly on the accuser. This is just basic social skills, which most anoraks have little aptitude for. There are polite diplomatic protocols honed over millennia to help us achieve our goals when dealing with people, not systems.

Can we please forget about this now before the mainstream media start sniffing around? (Yes, I know, any publicity is good publicity).

Andy.
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Message 328049 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 23:58:11 UTC - in response to Message 327978.  
Last modified: 6 Jun 2006, 0:02:20 UTC

Then it would be nice if someone would tell us what would consitute a resolution.

Sorry for bad english.
To my point of view, doing the necessary to get in touch with Crunch3r and build good relations may be useful for the Seti project, and greatly appreciated by numerous Seti volunteers that use his optimised Seti apps.
It seems that there where some faults on each side, who caused part of the actual situation. I hope it's not a problem impossible to circumvent, between "smart and motivated" people..
I use Crunch3r Seti apps on all my rigs, they seems to run stable, with better perfs and error-free. I do care about efficiency and reliability of my contribution, so I have nothing to suggest about credit controversy.
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Message 328052 - Posted: 6 Jun 2006, 0:01:12 UTC - in response to Message 327197.  
Last modified: 6 Jun 2006, 0:05:36 UTC


You don't care because you don't have a RAC worth talking about.
Outrageous pomposity! Does higher RAC make you a better person in any way? Shame!

Am I the only one who feels this deserves redress??? In the recent past such crass comments as his would have been blown out of the water by dozens. Step up people!





Did I say this ? I never said nor claimed that those with lower daily credits are less valuable to the project. I said "You don't care because you don't have a RAC worth talking about" does this mean that you are less important - NO, does this mean that I am more important, NO - what it means is simply - I CARE ABOUT MY CREDITs, those with lower credits may not. I care and because I care, I have invested LOTS money into dedicated crunchers(dedicated, all they do 24/7 is crunch, they are not used for anything else- cept to heat my place). I have spent thousands of dollars on dedicated crunching machines, nobody asked me to do it, I do it because I CARE, both for the science and the credits.

I agree with you totally, if you are about the science then step up and show that you care - spend some money and get some machines, if you care about the credits then step up and spend some money and get the machines.

I put my money where my mouth is, these are NOT company machines as no many other crunchers have access to - these are privately owned. I once had daily credit output of over 31,000 - all on my own private machines. Others I know have done the same, and others still use the resources of their company – so what, does this make me any better - no, it just means that I care about the project. I have been crunching since spring of 1999, again, does this make me better than those that have just joined, no, not in the least.

I have said countless times both on this board and other boards, that it is not how much you contribute but that you do contribute. I just happen to like the challenge and will continue to add machines until I will be in the top 10 for Boinc, why, because I care.

I still have a high RAC, not has high as it once was - but if you care you can check here http://www.boincstats.com/stats/boinc_user_graph.php?pr=bo&id=a242708f872c3610ad83ee68377367d0

- I have also donated to the project - Four times in fact(I have the mailed receipts to prove it, and it is not a small amount) - and no I am not going to tell you how much, but I would venture that it is more than most. And no, I don't want a refund, but I would like the problems corrected.
I have also contributed to TRUX – twice I believe, I also sent donations to Crunch3r - twice here as well, how many of you can claim the same ? You know that Crunch3r has only received in donations ? I do, and I know that I have donated more than 80% of the ENTIRE seti membership.

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Message 328059 - Posted: 6 Jun 2006, 0:08:49 UTC - in response to Message 328021.  


I will take a whack at this Eric...if Berkeley would come up with a rule that only "approved" clients are allowed to be used it might go a long way towards ending this. "Approved" can mean several things..from only Berkeley apps to people like Crunch3r, Trux, TMR, etc, sending their app to Berkeley to get it approved BEFORE they distribute it. Berkeley could then modify the code slightly when non "approved" verions of the software come out nullifing any credits they would receive.


I would hate to go there, because a large number of people use the anonymous platform mechanisms on platforms we don't support or to make their own optimized builds. If I need to sign a binary everytime someone wanted to compile SETI@home, I'd be more busy than I am. The vast majority of the compiled versions available seem to do the right thing. The rest, we rely on validation and the median of three results credit allocation mechanism to remove the incentive to over-report credits.


I think that optimized versions of the software can be a help to the project because, as several people have stated, the workunits are being crunched faster and it shows that some people DO care and are even willing to go beyond the normal crunching time with their donations.


You'll get no arguments from me on that. I hope nobody has the idea that UCB disapproves of the use of optimized applications. Hell, most of the optimizations to the enhanced application came from people who developed enhanced versions of the standard app.


In the long run it could even open the doors to Berkeley letting some of these people become "employees". You are always saying how overworked you are, some of these people could provide some needed places to bounce ideas off of.


To some extent it has worked that way. Ask Tetsuji and Josef. I like to think I'm open to suggestions, but I can't always get around to everything quickly. Sometimes I don't get around to answering messages at all. Again ask Tetsuji and Josef. If I had seen Crunch3r's email, I'm not sure what I would have done with it. A couple comments on alloca() not working in exception blocks on Intel's compiler and a pre-compiled binary with no indication of what, if any, source changes were made doesn't immediately sound like a solution to the bugs we're having. I probably would have sent a one line response and asked for source. That might have been considered to Crunch3r to be as much of a slight as no response was.

I would also like to point out to everyone, should anyone have not noticed. That the another major issue, the allegations of cheating, did not come from Berkeley. As I have said, I would prefer to stay out of the flame war business. I'm also in neither direct, nor indirect control of what the moderators do. I hope they use their moderation with moderation. Maybe we need to move to a slashdot style "posters occasionally get moderation points" mechanism. But that can't happen until Matt's around to make it work.


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Message 328074 - Posted: 6 Jun 2006, 0:13:51 UTC - in response to Message 327607.  

I don't care if I get banned from this board, or the whole project, for saying this, but Kevint and Steve Akers don't just have high credit-generation capabilities - they're also very rude and put out a bad message!

We've all gotten into fights about differences in opinion, but this is more than that - you think you're better just because you have faster computers and higher numbers. That you deserve more respect and that your opinion is somehow "more valid."

http://www.setiusa.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=23110#23110


ACK.

The combined contribution of the small crunchers is the majority of the work done for seti.

If I see someone with a RAC of 250 and a total contribution of nearly 200,000 credits, he has all my respect.

Regards Hans




Hans - I agree,-
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Message 328084 - Posted: 6 Jun 2006, 0:17:30 UTC - in response to Message 327653.  



If I see someone with a RAC of 250 and a total contribution of nearly 200,000 credits, he has all my respect.

Regards Hans


They have all of my respect as well, as long as they don't feel that those doing more work shouldn't receive more credit for the rankings.

I agree with you *if* you mean that if you crunch a wu faster (as anyone with a faster computer can) you get the work done faster so you get more credit in the same amount of time. I don't agree with some on these boards that seem to feel that if I crunch a wu in 20 hours for 60 credits and they can crunch the *same* wu in 10 hours they should get 120 credits for it. You are doing the exact same amount of work so you should get the exact same amount of credits for it, regardless of the time it takes.



Yes, Agreed!
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