FOR CRUNCH3R- WE ARE ON STRIKE!!!

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Message 326819 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 3:12:21 UTC - in response to Message 326808.  

"Wonder if there's any donuts left."
"Yeah but I got the last jelly filled one."

I'll take a triple chocolate. Chocolate donut with chocolate icing and chocolate sprinkles.
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Message 326847 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 3:36:40 UTC - in response to Message 326808.  

Ay carumba......

I will not be joining this strike.

This strike will have absolutely no effect on SETI@home at all.

In fact, this is probably a pretty accurate guess at how the conversations at SETI@home are going to go in the next few days:

"Hey."

"Yeah?"

"The message board morons are on some sort of strike. Looks like they're not going to crunch any work for a week."

"Wonder if there's any donuts left."

"Yeah but I got the last jelly filled one."

"Damn."


I hate to break it to you guys, but I just don't think anyone is going to care if less work gets crunched. They are far more concerned about securing funding in the first place to even RUN the project than they are about the work being done.....In fact, they may even appreciate the reducing costs in bandwidth with all the runaways......

A noble idea, but flawed. If you want to send a message, figure out who is currently on a "scheduled donating" program with SETI@home and have them cancel with the reason being this whole stupid message board hiccup. That'll get their attention a lot faster.


I hope you are wrong. But if that is TRUELY the case, then my continued participation in this project after the strike would be a HUGE ERROR. If the project directors don't care if work gets done or not, as you say, then we are ALL wasting our time and computers and money on this project. My hope is that they DO care about their participants, and that they DO care that the work gets done in a timely mannor. I think they DO care, but that they have been just taking us, the volunteers, for granted. They think that they will have access to all our crunching power, regardless of how we are treated. This strike is a means to show them that they CANNOT just take us for granted. Everyone thinks that this is ONLY about the credit reduction. But that is only ONE of the factors. There are so MANY reasons that have lead us to this unfortunate decision. What happened with Crunch3r, and the credit issues, were just the straw that broke the camel's back. Everyone who is taking part in this demonstration each has their own reasons. If it turns out to be true, that we are just simply not wanted or needed, then at the end of the strike, we can leave on a PERMINANT basis. We are hoping that this will be a wake up call to the devs, and hope that this will encourage them to make changes that will make participation in this project FUN once again. But there is no reason to crunch for a project that alienates and vilifies it's top producers.

Regards, Daniel.
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Message 326903 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 4:23:36 UTC

I have taken all of my computers off line 3 weeks earlier than I had planned for my upcoming move. I will determine at that time if I am willing to put them back on this project.
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Message 326927 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 4:41:51 UTC - in response to Message 326742.  

Another thought: How 'bout if credit systems were done away with completely? And you only get the satisifaction of knowing you're a participant. How many of us would reamain onboard?


I would, I'm all for the credit system in BOINC being dumped. The science will still get done just slower. And after the initial outcry the Number crunching message board will become a quite sane area again.

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Message 326938 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 4:53:05 UTC - in response to Message 326927.  

Another thought: How 'bout if credit systems were done away with completely? And you only get the satisifaction of knowing you're a participant. How many of us would reamain onboard?


I would, I'm all for the credit system in BOINC being dumped. The science will still get done just slower. And after the initial outcry the Number crunching message board will become a quite sane area again.

Andrew


Hey, there's two of you now. And you each have a RAC of about 45, so that would be roughly 1.5 work units (90 credits) completed each day for you guys!

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Message 326945 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 4:57:44 UTC
Last modified: 5 Jun 2006, 5:10:16 UTC

@Daniel Schaalma and others who still crunch but disable network access -

I respect the right to strike or abstain or remove onesself from from any of these projects if the reasons for doing so are well reasoned in the eyes of the protester. I have seen that you have considered this issue carefully. I make no comment for either case since I removed myself (except for one core to earn the RAC to post here) for reasons other than this Crunch3r issue.

I wonder, though, what effect one week of not returning results will have on "the cause". I understand the desire to make a point and not damage the forward movement of the project. The revered Mahatma Gandi showed the world what sublime power civil disobedience has. However, to be effective, civil disobedience can have no deadline. Otherwise, the powers that you are attempting to fight or make a point with will simply hold their breath and ride out a short siege.

A single week (especially since the protest length has been pre-announced) will have little effect. "I'm gonna hold my breath for a week and then maybe I'll hold it again even though I haven't said so." has no real effect compared to, "I'm gonna go away until I see x, y and z accomplished."

If you and other protesters intend to effect permanent change you must withhold what you feel the authorities need (not want - need) until such time as they ascede to your demands or make such comprimises as you feel justify a satisfactory middle ground resolution.

By simply stopping network connections while still crunching, even for such a massive contributer as yourself along with yours and other's teams, is simply a shout into the mists that can easily, and may very well be, ignored. It's like a child holding their breath in protest to going to bed before they want to. All a parent has to do is wait a little bit and the power is back in their hands. Even more so, since the next "breath holding" will have the same solution (just wait a while) and the same result (we'll still get our units crunched, they'll just come in a week later than they would have).

To achieve permanent results you must be willing to move entirely away from SETI until such time as you see an acceptable solution ready to be actualized.

Understand, I am not participating in any "strikes" coordinated around any one individual, though I use Crunch3r's sweet code. I left because the entire community devolved into a slum the same as you'd see in any big city complete with gang wars, racism, childish bickering, smiling bullies, police brutality, disconnected authorities and personal blood feuds. The boards are the face of SETI@Home. In my view, this face has two black eyes.

(brief digression to substatiate a point)
God knows we still need rules and moderators in these fora - anyone who says otherwise is advocating expression/free posting only by those bold enough to dare abuse and challenge. Many brilliant and fascinating minds won't speak out if they anticipate antipathy. Meek but concerned people, I strongly suspect, are now wishing they could add their voices to the chorus but stand away in anticipation of attacks.
(end digression)

So, either spend your (in the group sense of the word) resources elsewhere until your needs are met or keep crunching SETI regardless. A single week's withholding of results returns, especially if it is known that the project will still benefit from your processing power at week's end, will have no long term effect. Bean counters will have too many other variables to point to in order to account for small, short term drops in results. Remember, "It's not the statistics that lie, it's the statisticians". If you want to force long term change you must be prepared to make a long term commitment to your protest.

I love SETI and always have. I just don't like it very much right now.

Respectfully,

Jim


Without love, breath is just a clock ... ticking.
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Message 326950 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 5:04:09 UTC

Hmm, just an idle thought to throw out.

Since a big issue is about credit, I say UCB should change the credit too. Lets go back to CLASSIC days, 1 WU=1WU, simple. Instead of credits, they can count how many WU's you turn in, and dump this whole credit stuff. Will that make everyone happy? Or will everyone go on strike for that too because now your even getting less?

Grow up people. This isn't elementary school. Everyone is upset about the whole situation. So striking is the answer? Not crunching any WU's is gonna bring the whole world to an end? This all has just been one hysterical news article to me and many friends. I've never seen so many grown adults acting like school children. I'm sure someone will flame me for that. MattDavis said it, and now I said it. Go look in the mirrors folks. Get over yourselfs. Either crunch, or go. Your not upsetting me, nor many of the others one here that have already said it. Heck, out of the hundreds of thousands of people crunching, how many people are actually on the boards here, that actually read this????

The top 5-6 teams leave, so thats what, 5%, maybe up to 8% of the entire volunteer basis of SETI will be gone? Thats gonna make a statement? Good lord.
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Message 326981 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 5:18:21 UTC - in response to Message 326950.  

Hmm, just an idle thought to throw out.

Since a big issue is about credit, I say UCB should change the credit too. Lets go back to CLASSIC days, 1 WU=1WU, simple. Instead of credits, they can count how many WU's you turn in, and dump this whole credit stuff. Will that make everyone happy? Or will everyone go on strike for that too because now your even getting less?

Grow up people. This isn't elementary school. Everyone is upset about the whole situation. So striking is the answer? Not crunching any WU's is gonna bring the whole world to an end? This all has just been one hysterical news article to me and many friends. I've never seen so many grown adults acting like school children. I'm sure someone will flame me for that. MattDavis said it, and now I said it. Go look in the mirrors folks. Get over yourselfs. Either crunch, or go. Your not upsetting me, nor many of the others one here that have already said it. Heck, out of the hundreds of thousands of people crunching, how many people are actually on the boards here, that actually read this????

The top 5-6 teams leave, so thats what, 5%, maybe up to 8% of the entire volunteer basis of SETI will be gone? Thats gonna make a statement? Good lord.

I would expect someone who considers themselves adult, as you must, to respect our efforts instead of belittling them as you are doing. I respect your right to voice your opinion here and would also defend that right for you. I would not belittle or demean your efforts as many here are doing to us. Now by definition, who is the adult here??


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Message 326986 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 5:21:23 UTC - in response to Message 326808.  


"Wonder if there's any donuts left."

"Yeah but I got the last jelly filled one."


You think we can afford donuts? Even if we could, we wouldn't be spending our donors' money on them.

But really, I do notice the strike. That doesn't mean I have the time or resources to do anything about it. I have work to do. (It's 10pm on a Sunday night and I'm at work...) I'm not even really sure what Crunch3r's issues are besides hurt feelings.

What good is a strike without demands? I can't say we'll meet any, but if there's not a list....



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Message 326989 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 5:23:22 UTC - in response to Message 326981.  
Last modified: 5 Jun 2006, 5:24:52 UTC

Hmm, just an idle thought to throw out.

Since a big issue is about credit, I say UCB should change the credit too. Lets go back to CLASSIC days, 1 WU=1WU, simple. Instead of credits, they can count how many WU's you turn in, and dump this whole credit stuff. Will that make everyone happy? Or will everyone go on strike for that too because now your even getting less?

Grow up people. This isn't elementary school. Everyone is upset about the whole situation. So striking is the answer? Not crunching any WU's is gonna bring the whole world to an end? This all has just been one hysterical news article to me and many friends. I've never seen so many grown adults acting like school children. I'm sure someone will flame me for that. MattDavis said it, and now I said it. Go look in the mirrors folks. Get over yourselfs. Either crunch, or go. Your not upsetting me, nor many of the others one here that have already said it. Heck, out of the hundreds of thousands of people crunching, how many people are actually on the boards here, that actually read this????

The top 5-6 teams leave, so thats what, 5%, maybe up to 8% of the entire volunteer basis of SETI will be gone? Thats gonna make a statement? Good lord.

I would expect someone who considers themselves adult, as you must, to respect our efforts instead of belittling them as you are doing. I respect your right to voice your opinion here and would also defend that right for you. I would not belittle or demean your efforts as many here are doing to us. Now by definition, who is the adult here??

Your 1 of many. I respect anyones right. UCB reserved the right to allow whoever they want to post here. Its an open forum. Say what you want, when you want, for the most part, as long as its within the rules. I stated my statement. What anyone thinks of them, doesn't matter to me. Theres no need for me to come down on your level, or anyone elses level, to prove a point. My point was made, make of it what you will. So tell me, whining and "striking" is the adult thing to do here right? Sorry, but I don't fall for it. Try again.


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Message 326994 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 5:26:27 UTC - in response to Message 326986.  


What good is a strike without demands? I can't say we'll meet any, but if there's not a list....

This is the best line I've read all day. Even though everyone is pissed off at you Eric, as well as everyone else at UCB for not listening to no one, I loved it. Thank you for the laugh. I'm going to bed. Have fun with your debate here. I hope the strike works. For what its worth.
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Message 326995 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 5:26:40 UTC - in response to Message 326986.  

"Wonder if there's any donuts left."

"Yeah but I got the last jelly filled one."

You think we can afford donuts? Even if we could, we wouldn't be spending our donors' money on them.

But really, I do notice the strike. That doesn't mean I have the time or resources to do anything about it. I have work to do. (It's 10pm on a Sunday night and I'm at work...) I'm not even really sure what Crunch3r's issues are besides hurt feelings.

What good is a strike without demands? I can't say we'll meet any, but if there's not a list....

I demand my triple chocolate donut.
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Message 327006 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 5:32:28 UTC - in response to Message 327001.  


"Wonder if there's any donuts left."

"Yeah but I got the last jelly filled one."


You think we can afford donuts? Even if we could, we wouldn't be spending our donors' money on them.

But really, I do notice the strike. That doesn't mean I have the time or resources to do anything about it. I have work to do. (It's 10pm on a Sunday night and I'm at work...) I'm not even really sure what Crunch3r's issues are besides hurt feelings.

What good is a strike without demands? I can't say we'll meet any, but if there's not a list....




How about the first demand...Project developers can no longer act like a$$ *****?

Now wheres the fun in that? This place would be dead if it wasn't for that.

[edited] cussing isnt the answer. :-)
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Message 327009 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 5:32:58 UTC - in response to Message 327001.  
Last modified: 5 Jun 2006, 5:33:12 UTC

Personally I'd rather have my donut.

But I have a feeling soon this will look like I responded to nothing.

Edit: Yep.
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Message 327010 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 5:33:12 UTC

Just for the record I said what Eric did daysssssssss ago in the first post of this thread

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=31503

"There's a lot of rhetoric and emotion flying around, and it seems a big disorganized.

I hear everyone is joining a "boycott." Could someone explain this to me, since all of this seems to be going over my head?

A boycott means you stop doing something until a goal is met, hoping to force another party to do something (or stop doing something). So, what is the point of the boycott?

Is it to make Tony apologize? To make Seti apologize? To make Seti force Tony to apologize? To make Seti stop its deleting of threads and posts? To make Seti accept Cruncher's work as standard?

This is all very disorganized."

Maybe I'm Eric!
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Message 327015 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 5:34:12 UTC - in response to Message 327010.  

Maybe I'm Eric!

Someone refresh my memory how many Misfit's there are. I'm thinking 7.
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Message 327026 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 5:39:12 UTC - in response to Message 326950.  

The top 5-6 teams leave, so thats what, 5%, maybe up to 8% of the entire volunteer basis of SETI will be gone? Thats gonna make a statement? Good lord.


Actually if all the active members on the top 10 teams quit crunching today (~7,000 people) it would be about 4.5% of the currently active community (150,000). I suspect there will be less than 1,000 people who actually go on strike so we're talking about 0.5% or less. Not saying it shouldn't be tried but I kind of doubt it will have any effect.

I personally won't be participating. I guess I just haven't been paying enough attention to my credits or these boards for the past few weeks to have any strong feelings on the matter. Amazing how job responsibilities, new babies in the family and moving make you not care so much about BOINC credits. Don't get me wrong, I'm still BOINCing on every system I have the authority to do so but as long as SOME credit is coming through to confirm that useful work is actually being done, you won't see me up in arms about any of this :)
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Message 327031 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 5:42:19 UTC - in response to Message 327026.  

The top 5-6 teams leave, so thats what, 5%, maybe up to 8% of the entire volunteer basis of SETI will be gone? Thats gonna make a statement? Good lord.


Actually if all the active members on the top 10 teams quit crunching today (~7,000 people) it would be about 4.5% of the currently active community (150,000). I suspect there will be less than 1,000 people who actually go on strike so we're talking about 0.5% or less. Not saying it shouldn't be tried but I kind of doubt it will have any effect.

I personally won't be participating. I guess I just haven't been paying enough attention to my credits or these boards for the past few weeks to have any strong feelings on the matter. Amazing how job responsibilities, new babies in the family and moving make you not care so much about BOINC credits. Don't get me wrong, I'm still BOINCing on every system I have the authority to do so but as long as SOME credit is coming through to confirm that useful work is actually being done, you won't see me up in arms about any of this :)

If I could give you a plus I would. I've basically stayed out of the whole mess. I just couldn't resist. My 8yo and 5 yo act better than this at home. I think I'll go back into the "DREADED" Cafe, where the bad eggs hang out. :-) Take care Toby.

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Message 327036 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 5:48:50 UTC - in response to Message 326938.  



Hey, there's two of you now. And you each have a RAC of about 45, so that would be roughly 1.5 work units (90 credits) completed each day for you guys!


I don't give a stuff about the RAC, its a meaningless number plus I'm actively crunching 17 projects, the average RAC for a single project will never get high for me unless it the project is in EDF mode like one of my machines has been for the pass 2 months to finish a climate WU.

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Message 327038 - Posted: 5 Jun 2006, 5:49:06 UTC - in response to Message 327006.  
Last modified: 5 Jun 2006, 5:49:25 UTC

I thought Rom and his two volunteer moderators had declared this to be a moderation free weekend. Well it did not take long for an other moderator to remove a comment directed his way. He did however mention that he would not be meeting any demands.

[quote]
/edit

But really, I do notice the strike. That doesn't mean I have the time or resources to do anything about it. I have work to do. (It's 10pm on a Sunday night and I'm at work...) I'm not even really sure what Crunch3r's issues are besides hurt feelings.

What good is a strike without demands? I can't say we'll meet any, but if there's not a list....




How about the first demand...Project developers can no longer act like a$$ *****?

Now wheres the fun in that? This place would be dead if it wasn't for that.

[edited] cussing isnt the answer. :-)

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