http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/04/23/liberty.attack/

I heard a reference to this story on a radio show earlier this evening.

So in posting it, are you stating that you are considering the story true? If not, WHY not?

And by the way, WELCOME. Things have been pretty dead recently due to the wonderful weather ( or a complete lack of interest, not sure which just yet ) but I am pretty sure it will pick up again eventually.

Sorry for the delay. I haven't been visiting the fora much lately.

After seeing a few programs on this matter and visiting a number of websites I have little doubt as to the authenticity of this event. It seems to me it could be a good example of a conspiracy. U.S. ship attacked, no consequences to the attackers. There have been wars started over less.

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Nothing travels faster than the speed of light with the possible exception of bad news, which obeys its own special laws.
Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)

Where are you, Knightmate?

Sorry, dude. Even knightmares need sleep occasionally. I will be back on this evening.

---

Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

Knitemate,

1. protect them? They should protect them from lies and falsehoods and irrational standards of good solid scholarship.

Where are the lies? Robert, what if it turns out that there WAS some kind of strange conspiracy involved with the 9/11 attacks? That would seem to move it from the realm of irrationality into the realm of " good solid scholarship.

As far as deception...I think it would be MORE deceptive if the students were taught to take everything they are told at face value.

I will say though, that I don't know if that particular forum would be the proper place to bring them up. Unless of course the discussion began based on the motives of the perpetrators.

2. You've set up a false alternative (logical fallacy). There is no true choice between 'taught at face value' and 'free thinking'.

Free thinking has a purpose....
Its purpose is not to just come up with any random idea, in spite of evidence.

I thought we had established that there were valid questions involved? Am I missing something here? YOU may not think that the questions are valid or rational, but many others DO think they are worth exploring.

Because that is NOT 'thinking' at all....it is concluding without regard to evidence, facts, logic, Reason. There must be standards that incorporate facts and rational premises in order to form any semblance of cohesive ideas. Things must be consistent. You can't believe one idea last hour and assert the contrary idea the next hour and somehow hope they both remain true at the same time.

As far as I know, the gentleman in question IS consistent in his teaching. I haven't heard or read anything about him changing his opinion.

I would have hoped I rubbed off on you better than this... :-(.

No worries Robert. You are getting there. You have set yourself up with a heck of a challenge. Playing Devil's Advocate is a lot of fun for me. lol

I take half that back. You seem to be 'coming around' or if not, at least asking the right questions. :-)

I have ALWAYS asked the right questions. It just took you a while to figure out WHY I was asking them in the wrong order.

---

Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

Where are you, Knightmate?

Now, I know I'm a bit far afield but the point is that there needs to be standards. Who decides the standards? Supposedly, or ideally, rational people that are hired to protect young students' minds, not mislead it or destroy it, or deceive it.

This is one reason that many professors these days do not allow their lectures to be recorded. The Ward Churchill types know full well that almost all parents that listened to one of the 'little Eichmanns' rants would send their little minds of mush elsewhere.

LOLOLOLOL....yes....there are alot more that don't make the news....

(for our 'foreign' friends)....'Ward Churchill' is an infamous tenured professor (forget where) who, amongst others, claims the 9/11 attacks were plotted by the US / Jews (or is it that other one that claims it's the jews?).....anyway. They're all over and cannot be fired.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Now, I know I'm a bit far afield but the point is that there needs to be standards. Who decides the standards? Supposedly, or ideally, rational people that are hired to protect young students' minds, not mislead it or destroy it, or deceive it.

This is one reason that many professors these days do not allow their lectures to be recorded. The Ward Churchill types know full well that almost all parents that listened to one of the 'little Eichmanns' rants would send their little minds of mush elsewhere.

Knitemate,

1. protect them? They should protect them from lies and falsehoods and irrational standards of good solid scholarship.

-----Knightmate, there ARE standards....elsewhise voodoo is just as good as proper surgery or medical care. (when voodoo translates into other endeavors such as politics the consequences are even more tragic than medicine)

As far as deception...I think it would be MORE deceptive if the students were taught to take everything they are told at face value.

I will say though, that I don't know if that particular forum would be the proper place to bring them up. Unless of course the discussion began based on the motives of the perpetrators.

2. You've set up a false alternative (logical fallacy). There is no true choice between 'taught at face value' and 'free thinking'.

Free thinking has a purpose....
Its purpose is not to just come up with any random idea, in spite of evidence. Because that is NOT 'thinking' at all....it is concluding without regard to evidence, facts, logic, Reason. There must be standards that incorporate facts and rational premises in order to form any semblance of cohesive ideas. Things must be consistent. You can't believe one idea last hour and assert the contrary idea the next hour and somehow hope they both remain true at the same time.

I would have hoped I rubbed off on you better than this... :-(.

I take half that back. You seem to be 'coming around' or if not, at least asking the right questions. :-)

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

There is an expectation within universities for the professors to uphold certain academic standards. There is no 'right' for them to in effect take students' money and give them sub standard education. Just as there is no right for a plumber to give you less quality piping that you paid for. All things in the realm of ideas are not equal. What would occur if you felt your appendix about to burst and paid a certified doctor to remove it and you were under anasthesia and he did the 'chicken guts' scam?

Now, I know I'm a bit far afield but the point is that there needs to be standards. Who decides the standards? Supposedly, or ideally, rational people that are hired to protect young students' minds, not mislead it or destroy it, or deceive it.

That would be saying that the gentleman in question doesn't have the " right " to say what he thinks is real ( or even qeustionable ) because the " rational " people don't agree with it???

What are they supposed to be " protecting " the students from? Free thinking?

Where are they being mislead? At this point there are reasonable ( IMO ) questions surrounding 9/11. I don't see bringing UP those questions as misleading or destructive.

As far as deception...I think it would be MORE deceptive if the students were taught to take everything they are told at face value.

I will say though, that I don't know if that particular forum would be the proper place to bring them up. Unless of course the discussion began based on the motives of the perpetrators.

* eagerly awaits Robert's right cross * lol

---

Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

There is an expectation within universities for the professors to uphold certain academic standards. There is no 'right' for them to in effect take students' money and give them sub standard education. Just as there is no right for a plumber to give you less quality piping that you paid for. All things in the realm of ideas are not equal. What would occur if you felt your appendix about to burst and paid a certified doctor to remove it and you were under anasthesia and he did the 'chicken guts' scam?

Now, I know I'm a bit far afield but the point is that there needs to be standards. Who decides the standards? Supposedly, or ideally, rational people that are hired to protect young students' minds, not mislead it or destroy it, or deceive it.

---

Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Professor Kevin Barrett is coming under fire for teaching conspiracy theories about 9/11 in his class. While almost everyone supports his right to research the idea and write books about it, many are uncomfortable with him teaching it to a captive audience in an Islamic Studies class. Note that it is not a current events class; it is purpotedly about Islam.

The University of Wisconsin's position is that he has academic freedom and the right to teach whatever he wants in his class.

Suppose he taught that the Holocaust never happened.

Suppose he decided to teach nothing but Origami in his Islamic Studies class.

Suppose he taught that race X is superior to race Y.

Suppose he brought some small animals into class and required students to shoot them as part of their grade.

Except for the Origami example, I seriously doubt that the Left would support his "academic freedom" to do these things in a college classroom.

Academic freedom goes exactly as far as the university wants it to go.

(EDIT: spelling)

Actually, other than the Origami, I don't think ANY of the examples would be accepted by either the Right OR the Left. Some things are just wrong.

According to what you stated, the University of Wisconsin allows him to teach whatever he wants. In my case, I don't fall on any definitive side of a lot of the issues. I have this terrible tendancy to see things from both sides of the fence.

In this instance, I can understand why some folks would be irritated by what they see as a waste of their tuition money. But I ALSO see that the gentleman has a right to teach students that there may be unanswered questions about the events of 9/11. In an Islamic Studies class, the questions should be based more on the motivations of the people who did the deed rather than on the " conspiracy theories " surrounding the events. This is only my humble opinion and I am sure that plenty of people will disagree with me. That's the way of the world.

---

Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

Professor Kevin Barrett is coming under fire for teaching conspiracy theories about 9/11 in his class. While almost everyone supports his right to research the idea and write books about it, many are uncomfortable with him teaching it to a captive audience in an Islamic Studies class. Note that it is not a current events class; it is purpotedly about Islam.

The University of Wisconsin's position is that he has academic freedom and the right to teach whatever he wants in his class.

Suppose he taught that the Holocaust never happened.

Suppose he decided to teach nothing but Origami in his Islamic Studies class.

Suppose he taught that race X is superior to race Y.

Suppose he brought some small animals into class and required students to shoot them as part of their grade.

Except for the Origami example, I seriously doubt that the Left would support his "academic freedom" to do these things in a college classroom.

Academic freedom goes exactly as far as the university wants it to go.

(EDIT: spelling)

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.

wyoming is a conspiracy. It dosen't really exsist, it was created in 1963 by the Rand Corp in order to throw people off the trail of waht was really going on... advanced testing on a nuclear powered lawn mower. It was rumored that Russia was working on one, and how could we let them have better kept lawns then we do? It would mean the end of our way of life. We could not allow a lawn mower gap!

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/Central Florida Astronomical Society

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/04/23/liberty.attack/

I heard a reference to this story on a radio show earlier this evening.

So in posting it, are you stating that you are considering the story true? If not, WHY not?

And by the way, WELCOME. Things have been pretty dead recently due to the wonderful weather ( or a complete lack of interest, not sure which just yet ) but I am pretty sure it will pick up again eventually.

---

Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/04/23/liberty.attack/

---

Nothing travels faster than the speed of light with the possible exception of bad news, which obeys its own special laws.
Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)

* knocks on the window * Hello??? Anyone home????

---

Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

Hehe...I got one of their catalogs last year. I can generally find coasttocoast further up the dial from out of state. Try that.

I have done that. I can find it on a station that originates in Cleveland but it also fades out quite severely. I live too close to the power source for my town's electricity. Very few AM stations have enough power to get through the interference. Of the ones that do have that type of power output, none of them are close enough to me.

---

Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

Hehe...I got one of their catalogs last year. I can generally find coasttocoast further up the dial from out of state. Try that.

---

Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Last night on wacky radio there was a discussion on whether or not Jim Morrison was still alive and then the rest of the show was an interview with Travis Walton, the famous logger who disappeared for 5 days and claims he was abducted onto a UFO.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to listen to the show for the last few days. I have been having serious issues with my computer, and of COURSE the radio station that carries the show on airwaves fades out at night. Maybe I need to contact the C. Crane Company. LMAO

---

Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

Last night on wacky radio there was a discussion on whether or not Jim Morrison was still alive and then the rest of the show was an interview with Travis Walton, the famous logger who disappeared for 5 days and claims he was abducted onto a UFO.

edit ] double pOsT