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Message 306786 - Posted: 15 May 2006, 22:48:57 UTC - in response to Message 306741.  

Which defininition of feminism are you talking about? There are many feminist theories around. There is Liberal Feminism, Radical Feminism, Marxist Feminism, Socialist Feminism, the list goes on. Also feminism cannot be separated out from race and class. It is about power relations not whether a few of us want to chop your gonads off. For the number of 'rational' thinkers here there's seems to be a lot of irrational fear about what women/feminists want to do to them. The quotations are very selective and out of context. Valerie Solanas wrote the SCUM manifesto in 1968 (when I bought my copy) which struck a chord with quite a few women, but those were early days of the Women's Movement.

And Robert Brooke calling himself a feminist, give me a break.....


I AM a feminest if being a feminist means advocating that women have all of the same legal rights that men have. I advocate that point of view utterly %100 and without equivocation. But when people use the word 'feminist' it usually refers to something other than just that idealogy does it not? Fact of the matter is that most of today's culture that is colored by feminism is bathed in hatred, irrationality, and bigotry. The question still remains unanswered....what is feminism after? What's the goal? Equal rights? Achieved and done. Are feminists worried about 3rd world oppression of women? I don't see enough concern directed there. (I do see some).

What is it you want? I've never heard a well put answer to this question. I'm a very well read individual who is highly educated and well versed in current affairs. So tell me what the answer is and I'll consider it.

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Message 306788 - Posted: 15 May 2006, 22:49:14 UTC - in response to Message 306741.  

Which defininition of feminism are you talking about? There are many feminist theories around. There is Liberal Feminism, Radical Feminism, Marxist Feminism, Socialist Feminism, the list goes on. Also feminism cannot be separated out from race and class. It is about power relations not whether a few of us want to chop your gonads off. For the number of 'rational' thinkers here there's seems to be a lot of irrational fear about what women/feminists want to do to them.

Are we talking about feminism or Islam now? ;)
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Message 306798 - Posted: 15 May 2006, 22:56:33 UTC - in response to Message 306785.  


What about the sufferage movements in the mid 1800s and early 1900s? This was a huge step for equal rights. Women began going to universities and began taking a larger role in the work place. In 1869 women were allowed to vote in Wyoming, but that's just for the U.S.


Yes you are right of course. I was referring to what is commonly known as the Second Wave of Feminism which occured from the late sixties onwards.

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Message 306801 - Posted: 15 May 2006, 22:59:35 UTC - in response to Message 306788.  

Which defininition of feminism are you talking about? There are many feminist theories around. There is Liberal Feminism, Radical Feminism, Marxist Feminism, Socialist Feminism, the list goes on. Also feminism cannot be separated out from race and class. It is about power relations not whether a few of us want to chop your gonads off. For the number of 'rational' thinkers here there's seems to be a lot of irrational fear about what women/feminists want to do to them.

Are we talking about feminism or Islam now? ;)

We might as well be talking about both, Jeffrey. Considered rationally, they're both 'just plain nuts'. Irrational idealogies don't necessarily conflict with one another but rational ideas always conflict with the absurd.

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Message 306963 - Posted: 16 May 2006, 3:34:27 UTC - in response to Message 306561.  

but it takes more than a couple of generations to undo the effects of thousands of years of oppression.

{tone: calm}
In 1652 an ambassador from Islam to Vienna sent a letter home in which he described the homage paid by the Emperor to women and ended his letter by stating "everywhere here the women rule."

Your thousands of years of oppression is a fictional construct of the radical 60's feminists to justify the war against men that they declared.

Personally I like women very much and know that most of them don't want to kill me, but I take the declaration of war seriously because it is still going on and when men die because of it I take that seriously too.
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Message 307081 - Posted: 16 May 2006, 6:07:39 UTC - in response to Message 306963.  

but it takes more than a couple of generations to undo the effects of thousands of years of oppression.

{tone: calm}
In 1652 an ambassador from Islam to Vienna sent a letter home in which he described the homage paid by the Emperor to women and ended his letter by stating "everywhere here the women rule."

Your thousands of years of oppression is a fictional construct of the radical 60's feminists to justify the war against men that they declared.

Personally I like women very much and know that most of them don't want to kill me, but I take the declaration of war seriously because it is still going on and when men die because of it I take that seriously too.

Stites makes so much damn sense sometimes..............

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Message 307405 - Posted: 16 May 2006, 15:12:22 UTC - in response to Message 306722.  

I agree. But the question still remains.....what does it (the 'movement') seek? As I've pointed out earlier all of the equal protection under the law agendas have been achieved, except perhaps in Africa and/or other 3rd world nations. So what is feminism doing? Noone knows it seems. They do alot of hating and absorb themselves with the hobby of souring the minds of some young impressionable women on ideas of romance and love, but besides that I don't see any value in it.

My point was that it is no more valid for you to demand a single policy goal of "the" feminist movement than it is for man-haters to claim that they speak for "the" movement and, by extension, all women.
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Message 307423 - Posted: 16 May 2006, 15:44:52 UTC - in response to Message 306741.  

The quotations are very selective and out of context.

I did hand-pick self-explanatory quotes. If I accidentally picked one that was intended as satire or humor or devil's advocation, please let me know and I'll retract the 'hate' label. As for excusing a statement because it was made in 1968, in this thread men are being held accountable for words and deeds from hundreds and even thousands of years ago. If she has since disavowed the statement, again please let me know (even though that doesn't cleanse the original statement, it does tend to cleanse the speaker somewhat).

Like I said previously, I don't believe those statements are representative of women, but the women making the statements intended them to be regarded as such.
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Message 307887 - Posted: 16 May 2006, 21:04:46 UTC - in response to Message 307423.  


I did hand-pick self-explanatory quotes. If I accidentally picked one that was intended as satire or humor or devil's advocation, please let me know and I'll retract the 'hate' label. As for excusing a statement because it was made in 1968, in this thread men are being held accountable for words and deeds from hundreds and even thousands of years ago. If she has since disavowed the statement, again please let me know (even though that doesn't cleanse the original statement, it does tend to cleanse the speaker somewhat).

Like I said previously, I don't believe those statements are representative of women, but the women making the statements intended them to be regarded as such.


I don't know if I quite understand all of your post. The Women's Movement is called that precisely because it is a movement, it changes and evolves. I have not been aware that feminism is a dirty word and is felt to be a threat by some people here. I think there are cultural differences, the US feminist movement being more of the radical feminist variety (to tell you the truth I'm not up to date on all the latest theories) and here in the UK feminism being linked with the Left and Socialism. So what is it you men are really frightened of?
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Message 307917 - Posted: 16 May 2006, 21:58:58 UTC - in response to Message 307887.  


So what is it you men are really frightened of?


In college, I dated a self proclaimed feminist. Many times, it was simply man bashing and the objectification thereof. I finally got sick of seeing movies with her because I had to hear her rant how the man had the lead role or some such thing. I brought this up with a various other issues and later she decided that she liked the idea of a humanist better. Many times, it seems that groups want to bring down the "well to do", however that is preceived, in order to bring themselves up.

Another example was when I was taking a self-hypnosis class and I happened to be the only male in the class. On the last day, one lady had a problem with her husband and the discussion that followed frightened me. I had never heard anything like it and hope I never do again. They began instructing her on how to train her husband among other issues and the whole time I sat there gape-jawed. Their eyes kept nervously flicking in my direction as they took turns giving this poor girl instructions.

Having been around many of my self proclaimed feminist ex-girlfriend friends, i became a bit edgy. I cannot begin to count the number of times they attributed testosterone to aggressive behavior even though, when it was useful, they proclaimed environmental effects. One day, I had enough of this testosterone BS and I proceeded to the biology library to do some literature searching. I cross referenced aggression and testosterone in various forms to provide more hits than are reasonable. Not having much else to do that day, I sat and combed through the literature citations and discovered that there was not one study that could conclusively connect testosterone to aggression and what made it even more interesting was the fact that about 85% of the studies where done by women.

BIASED? With 85% of the studies by women, it really seemed to me that women were AGRESSIVELY trying to show how agressive men were like they could use the fact that they are man in a court of law. The bottom line is that when someone is trying to be taken down, they respond negatively. Many times, the idea is not: "I want to be equal to you". The idea is really: "I want what you have so give it up because I'm here to take it from you". This is why Affirmative Action is looked down upon by many. It's not fair to all and gives the advantage to the "minorities". And if you want to take advantage of biased programs like Affirmative Action, you better be able to accept negative bias toward you because that's supposedly why you have it. It's a self fulfilling cycle.

Purposely giving someone a disadvantage is not equal rights. Continuously bashing one particular group is not equal rights. Training or controlling another group is not equal rights. There are many examples of this that should threaten men; just as women are threatened by controlling behavior of men.



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Message 308220 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 3:59:31 UTC - in response to Message 307887.  

So what is it you men are really frightened of?

{tone:calm}
It's not fright, it's anger. We are tired of being blamed for everything bad that has ever happened. Women comprise 51% of the people in our society they should take at least 50% of the responsibility for it being the way it is, good and bad. If they can't do that they should admit they really aren't adults after all.

Here in the states, most of the feminists seem to belive in two types of people, good (women), and bad (men). I also believe in good and bad people, about half of each group are men. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out who the other half are.


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Message 308247 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 4:55:17 UTC

Man,(pun intended) there's a lot of good stuff in here.

Although a lot of what Es99 said in her last post was true, this is not:
it takes more than a couple of generations to undo the effects of thousands of years of oppression

So sorry, but in my country, that's blatently wrong. It is just not so. Women are equal to men here. My wife makes the exact same amount a man does at her company, and she gets extra consideration for purely feminine problems that might interfere with work.

I've seen hatred directed towards men more than once, and I've seen oppression in the form of a battered woman. Neither of them are good things; neither of them are acceptable in any way.

There should be equilibrium of the sexes. Not identicality. There should be mutual respect, and if there is hatred it should NOT be on the basis of gender, any more than it should be on the basis of skin color. Detest someone because they're an arsehole, not because they're an arsehole AND female or male!
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Message 308304 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 6:35:54 UTC

<----------massive support yielded for the ideas contained in this thread. Logic whens the day here, people. Facts and logic. Hatred is a shadow and runs away from the light of day.
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Message 308464 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 12:13:31 UTC - in response to Message 307917.  


So what is it you men are really frightened of?


In college, I dated a self proclaimed feminist. Many times, it was simply man bashing and the objectification thereof. I finally got sick of seeing movies with her because I had to hear her rant how the man had the lead role or some such thing. I brought this up with a various other issues and later she decided that she liked the idea of a humanist better. Many times, it seems that groups want to bring down the "well to do", however that is preceived, in order to bring themselves up.

Another example was when I was taking a self-hypnosis class and I happened to be the only male in the class. On the last day, one lady had a problem with her husband and the discussion that followed frightened me. I had never heard anything like it and hope I never do again. They began instructing her on how to train her husband among other issues and the whole time I sat there gape-jawed. Their eyes kept nervously flicking in my direction as they took turns giving this poor girl instructions.

Having been around many of my self proclaimed feminist ex-girlfriend friends, i became a bit edgy. I cannot begin to count the number of times they attributed testosterone to aggressive behavior even though, when it was useful, they proclaimed environmental effects. One day, I had enough of this testosterone BS and I proceeded to the biology library to do some literature searching. I cross referenced aggression and testosterone in various forms to provide more hits than are reasonable. Not having much else to do that day, I sat and combed through the literature citations and discovered that there was not one study that could conclusively connect testosterone to aggression and what made it even more interesting was the fact that about 85% of the studies where done by women.

BIASED? With 85% of the studies by women, it really seemed to me that women were AGRESSIVELY trying to show how agressive men were like they could use the fact that they are man in a court of law. The bottom line is that when someone is trying to be taken down, they respond negatively. Many times, the idea is not: "I want to be equal to you". The idea is really: "I want what you have so give it up because I'm here to take it from you". This is why Affirmative Action is looked down upon by many. It's not fair to all and gives the advantage to the "minorities". And if you want to take advantage of biased programs like Affirmative Action, you better be able to accept negative bias toward you because that's supposedly why you have it. It's a self fulfilling cycle.

Purposely giving someone a disadvantage is not equal rights. Continuously bashing one particular group is not equal rights. Training or controlling another group is not equal rights. There are many examples of this that should threaten men; just as women are threatened by controlling behavior of men.


Ok, you are making sense also. You are hereby ordered to cease and desist from said sense making commentarires. Banned from making sense. The public is forbidden from intercoursing with Logic like you and Stites are attempting to introduce into the mainstream.......

How dare you use logic!? Don't you know that logic is a tool of the oppressive male majority!? Pfffttt. (Seriously, this has been expressed by some feminests before as a tool of sexist oppression)
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Message 308466 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 12:17:25 UTC
Last modified: 17 May 2006, 12:19:47 UTC

Sorry, I think this whole thread is a buch of crap.

I believe in treating women equally, to and extent.

If I'm unconscious and my house is on fire, I want someone who can carry my 230 pound ass out of the house, and let's face it, the average woman cannot lift, much less carry, 230 pounds.

No that does not mean you should be barefoot and pregnant stuck in the kitchen all day, it just means that you should realize men and woman ARE different and that's why we're treated differently.




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Message 308477 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 12:31:03 UTC - in response to Message 308466.  

Sorry, I think this whole thread is a buch of crap.

I believe in treating women equally, to and extent.

If I'm unconscious and my house is on fire, I want someone who can carry my 230 pound ass out of the house, and let's face it, the average woman cannot lift, much less carry, 230 pounds.

No that does not mean you should be barefoot and pregnant stuck in the kitchen all day, it just means that you should realize men and woman ARE different and that's why we're treated differently.



LOL... i knew there was a reason i didn't want to be a fireman (and I'm a bloke)....
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Message 309848 - Posted: 18 May 2006, 23:01:03 UTC
Last modified: 18 May 2006, 23:16:01 UTC

"Time Has Come Today" . . .Chambers Brothers

quote - from another thread . . . :_)
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=28783

<quotes>
"It happens all the time," says the executive as the two walk away.

She suggests that the woman in the information booth probably didn't
even realize she was behaving in a subtly biased manner.

(For her part, the young white woman is too embarrassed to admit
that she barely took note of what happened until her new boss pointed it out.)

Psychologists have long suspected that a culture can imprint bias against stigmatized
groups so deeply on the human psyche that people are virtually unaware of it. Although
anecdotes like the above story abound, scientifically proving that unconscious bias exists
can be problematic.<end quotes>
. . . more
http://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=100297&org=NSF
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Message 309867 - Posted: 19 May 2006, 0:06:20 UTC

I would like to make another post to give the 2 women another chance to give me a -2 rating. One should never ask a question of someone, if they do not want to hear an answer. I'm not assuming Hev gave me a rating. At least respond in a verbal discussion rather than censorship if you disagree unless of coure I blocked you already for abusive behaviors. That is passive agressive behavior, LOL.

Conversely, why are women afraid of a masculinist? If a man wishes to have equal rights and protections, what is wrong with that? That was what my post adressed that ended up with a -2 rating. Why is it wrong for me to want equal rights in society or relationship? I won't assume you gave me a bad rating if you reply because I pretty sure I already know who did it. LOL.

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Message 309899 - Posted: 19 May 2006, 0:57:36 UTC

While you're at it, my last post had a -2 also...
hmmmmmmm.....


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Message 310253 - Posted: 19 May 2006, 9:11:53 UTC - in response to Message 309899.  

While you're at it, my last post had a -2 also...
hmmmmmmm.....


men-haters!

That's odd, because when I looked at this thread the other day all you guys were on +3 or +4 and me and Hev all had negative ratings. Do you think it was the woman haters?
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