Seti Enhanced Credit Fair?

Message boards : Number crunching : Seti Enhanced Credit Fair?
Message board moderation

To post messages, you must log in.

Previous · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 · 7 · 8 . . . 23 · Next

AuthorMessage
Ingleside
Volunteer developer

Send message
Joined: 4 Feb 03
Posts: 1546
Credit: 15,832,022
RAC: 13
Norway
Message 304268 - Posted: 13 May 2006, 20:38:36 UTC - in response to Message 304135.  

Fairness, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder. It will be fair to some and not to others. The fear I have is that there may be a mass exodus of people away from Seti. Many people crunch solely to help the science (and some claim to do so), but many more crunch for the competition and the bragging rights and they will be the ones who will leave when everybody starts getting the same credit regardless of the time spent and CPU used. The current enhanced credit system will remove the incentive to update to faster machines which coupled with people leaving the project is ultimately hurting the project. IMHO, the project should be setup to attract people, not run them off.


Well, let's see, "classic", if a fast computer used 1h/wu and a slow 6h/wu, the fast would get 24 "wu-credit"/day while the slow 4 "wu-credit"/day, meaning fast gets 6x more credit/day.

SETI@Home/BOINC v4.18, if a fast computer uses 1h/wu and a slow 6h/wu, and on average gets 24 Cobblestones/wu, the fast would get 576 Cobblestones/day while the slow 96 CS/day, and again you've got fast gets 6x more credit/day.


With Seti_Enhanced v5.12, what has changed?
On ar=0.426535, fast computer uses 2.6h while slow uses 15.6h on the same wu, and both gets 62.36 Cobblestones.
On ar=0.693026, fast computer uses 1.41h while slow uses 8.48h, and both gets 33.90 Cobblestones...

But hang on, on fast computer this means ar=0.426 is 24 Cobblestones/hour, while on ar=0.693 it's 24 Cobblestones/hour. For both angle-ranges, it means fast computer gets 576 CS/day.
For slow computer, ar=0.426 is 4 Cobblestones/hour, while on ar=0.693 it's 4 Cobblestones/hour. For both angle-ranges, it means slow computer gets 96 CS/day.

Meaning, appart for different amount of cpu-time for a specific wu, and a different amount of credit for this wu, the average granted credit/day is nearly unchanged between v4.18 and v5.12. This also means, a fast computer that used 1/6th the cpu-time under v4.18 and therefore got 6x more credit/day than a slow computer, will still get 6x more credit/day under Seti_Enhanced.


Well, since not all computers is exactly the same and doesn't crunch all things exactly as good, and the "flops-counting" isn't completely linear with cpu-time, a fast computer can possibly get 24 CS/h on ar=0.4 and maybe 24.2 CS/h at ar=0.5 and 23.8 CS/h at ar=0.6 and so on.
Also, while fast computer under v4.18 got average 24 CS/h and slow got only 4 CS/h, it's possible the fast on average gets only 23.5 CS/h under Seti_Enhanced while slow gets 4.2 CS/h, meaning 5.6x more instead of 6x. But, for 2 other fast and slow computers, it's maybe changed to 24.5 CS/h and 3.8 CS/h, meaning 6.4x now.


Bottom line is, Seti_Enhanced just like v4.18 and earlier applications, gives more Cobblestones/day to a fast computer than to a slow. So, the incentive to upgrade to whatever is the "latest", "greatest" and "fastest" computer is just like it has been in SETI@Home/BOINC v4.18 and SETI@Home "classic".
ID: 304268 · Report as offensive
Profile Crunch3r
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 15 Apr 99
Posts: 1546
Credit: 3,438,823
RAC: 0
Germany
Message 304398 - Posted: 13 May 2006, 22:53:19 UTC - in response to Message 304268.  

...

Well, let's see, "classic", if a fast computer used 1h/wu and a slow 6h/wu, the fast would get 24 "wu-credit"/day while the slow 4 "wu-credit"/day, meaning fast gets 6x more credit/day.


Well it depended on the benchmarks run by boinc.

Where did you pull that 24 credits off ? Thought it was intended to be more like 32 credits per WU on average ?


SETI@Home/BOINC v4.18, if a fast computer uses 1h/wu and a slow 6h/wu, and on average gets 24 Cobblestones/wu, the fast would get 576 Cobblestones/day while the slow 96 CS/day, and again you've got fast gets 6x more credit/day.


Again... 1 hour with official 4.18 ??? Never seen that happen ;) Maybe a P4 with 4 GHz not running HT...


With Seti_Enhanced v5.12, what has changed?


Drop in credit claimed/granted.

P.S.
Anyhow...

my personal note and again what i've seen/read on various boards is that credit claims/granted is way to less.


Join BOINC United now!
ID: 304398 · Report as offensive
Profile The MariahNet Network
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 14 Jul 99
Posts: 173
Credit: 2,469,357
RAC: 0
United States
Message 304415 - Posted: 13 May 2006, 23:09:45 UTC

Doesn't anyone care?
Credit is not fair!
I really could swear.
To say, would I dare?
Yea, Credit is not fair!
Like cookies eaten by a bear.
Clothes ripped and nothing to wear.
Lost the spray for my hair.
And my pants is no longer a pair.
Credit is not fair!

*a little head banging action*

;-)

ID: 304415 · Report as offensive
1mp0£173
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 3 Apr 99
Posts: 8423
Credit: 356,897
RAC: 0
United States
Message 304436 - Posted: 13 May 2006, 23:24:47 UTC
Last modified: 13 May 2006, 23:25:10 UTC

First of all: no good deed ever goes unpunished.

Any time the credit system changes, some are going to do better under the new system, and others not so good.

Those who see a jump in credits will see the new system as "fair" and those who don't will see it as unfair.

Simple as that.
ID: 304436 · Report as offensive
Grant (SSSF)
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 19 Aug 99
Posts: 13396
Credit: 208,696,464
RAC: 304
Australia
Message 304457 - Posted: 13 May 2006, 23:53:08 UTC - in response to Message 304398.  

my personal note and again what i've seen/read on various boards is that credit claims/granted is way to less.

Still reminds me of pinball machines.
The early ones the maximum possible score was 9,999. Bonuses were 10 points, 100 for a huge one. The last pinball machine i saw the maximum possible score was something like 10 million, small bonuses were 10,000.
People are just greedy; it's that simple. Fair has nothing to do with it.
Grant
Darwin NT
ID: 304457 · Report as offensive
Profile Pappa
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 9 Jan 00
Posts: 2562
Credit: 12,301,681
RAC: 0
United States
Message 304489 - Posted: 14 May 2006, 0:28:52 UTC - in response to Message 304268.  
Last modified: 14 May 2006, 0:39:23 UTC

Well, let's see, "classic", if a fast computer used 1h/wu and a slow 6h/wu, the fast would get 24 "wu-credit"/day while the slow 4 "wu-credit"/day, meaning fast gets 6x more credit/day.

SETI@Home/BOINC v4.18, if a fast computer uses 1h/wu and a slow 6h/wu, and on average gets 24 Cobblestones/wu, the fast would get 576 Cobblestones/day while the slow 96 CS/day, and again you've got fast gets 6x more credit/day.

A year and a half ago, I received a new Dual 2.8Ghz Xeon with 3 gig of RAM... During the burnin it did 22 Seti Classic Results a day... Please show us the HostID that can back your claim. I had a few P3's that fit the range but then a Lot of older PII (pick your speed) are still running today.

With Seti_Enhanced v5.12, what has changed?
On ar=0.426535, fast computer uses 2.6h while slow uses 15.6h on the same wu, and both gets 62.36 Cobblestones.
On ar=0.693026, fast computer uses 1.41h while slow uses 8.48h, and both gets 33.90 Cobblestones...

here is a link to a 3.6Ghz Xeon doing Seti Enhanced Beta that takes 19,465.36 Seconds (5.4 hours)56.96 CC AR 0.4847 or 5.4 Credits/hour...

Somehow this does not add up to the "fast computer uses 2.6 hours"...

So if we look at my PII 350 which was fired up for testing (slow computers) It name is Norm (short for normal users) with 5.11
736986 AR 0.4225 144,176.25 Seconds (40 hours) 173.74 CC somehow that does not add up to what you are claming is the "average computer."


But hang on, on fast computer this means ar=0.426 is 24 Cobblestones/hour, while on ar=0.693 it's 24 Cobblestones/hour. For both angle-ranges, it means fast computer gets 576 CS/day.
For slow computer, ar=0.426 is 4 Cobblestones/hour, while on ar=0.693 it's 4 Cobblestones/hour. For both angle-ranges, it means slow computer gets 96 CS/day.

So while Jeff Cobb came up with a Maijik formula about how credit is calculated, there is no know reference computer that it was ran on! Please show the HostID of the Reference Computer!


Meaning, appart for different amount of cpu-time for a specific wu, and a different amount of credit for this wu, the average granted credit/day is nearly unchanged between v4.18 and v5.12. This also means, a fast computer that used 1/6th the cpu-time under v4.18 and therefore got 6x more credit/day than a slow computer, will still get 6x more credit/day under Seti_Enhanced.


Well, since not all computers is exactly the same and doesn't crunch all things exactly as good, and the "flops-counting" isn't completely linear with cpu-time, a fast computer can possibly get 24 CS/h on ar=0.4 and maybe 24.2 CS/h at ar=0.5 and 23.8 CS/h at ar=0.6 and so on.
Also, while fast computer under v4.18 got average 24 CS/h and slow got only 4 CS/h, it's possible the fast on average gets only 23.5 CS/h under Seti_Enhanced while slow gets 4.2 CS/h, meaning 5.6x more instead of 6x. But, for 2 other fast and slow computers, it's maybe changed to 24.5 CS/h and 3.8 CS/h, meaning 6.4x now.


Bottom line is, Seti_Enhanced just like v4.18 and earlier applications, gives more Cobblestones/day to a fast computer than to a slow. So, the incentive to upgrade to whatever is the "latest", "greatest" and "fastest" computer is just like it has been in SETI@Home/BOINC v4.18 and SETI@Home "classic".

To be fair on this part I agree that Seti Enhanced truly levels the playing field for Seti BOINC... For that part It Is Outstanding! I would hate to see the Mon&Pop machine that son/daughter installed Seti Boinc and it is just running...

I Feel that as a "true Credit Analysis" is completed we may find a truly different story... I Benchmarked a bunch of different CPU's for Speedy&Friends... I do not see the Super Computer on a standard 4.18 or 5.12/5.14. That was why many went to work trying to figure out how to make things work better faster... Eric, TMR, and Joe who are the prime contributors to the current efficiency of 5.11 and above they did a lot! But we still do not know how much time it takes on the "Mythical Reference Computer" and how many credits would be claimed from either a Benchmark or Fpop's.



If what I say upsets people you are welcome to say so... I do not own the computer hardware that you are making your claims from (fast)... I have a lot of computers working here, Seti Enahnced Beta and some doing Einstein just because...

Pappa


Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

ID: 304489 · Report as offensive
Profile Ananas
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 14 Dec 01
Posts: 195
Credit: 2,503,252
RAC: 0
Germany
Message 304592 - Posted: 14 May 2006, 1:40:34 UTC
Last modified: 14 May 2006, 1:41:51 UTC

Enhanced 5.12 claimed about the same with BOINC CC 4.19 and CC 5.x, so Enhanced 5.12 must habe been quite well adjusted to the previously claimed credits.

CC 4.19 ignores the Fpops counter, that's why it can be used quite well as a reference for this comparison.

With Enhanced 5.13, BOINC CC 5.x boxes claim about 50% of the amount that CC 4.19 claims.


From all versions that I have seen in Beta, no version got closer to the CC 4.19 values than Enhanced 5.12.
ID: 304592 · Report as offensive
Profile thinksnow

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 02
Posts: 41
Credit: 505,798
RAC: 0
United States
Message 304614 - Posted: 14 May 2006, 2:07:31 UTC - in response to Message 304489.  
Last modified: 14 May 2006, 2:15:02 UTC

here is a link to a 3.6Ghz Xeon doing Seti Enhanced Beta that takes 19,465.36 Seconds (5.4 hours)56.96 CC AR 0.4847 or 5.4 Credits/hour...

Somehow this does not add up to the "fast computer uses 2.6 hours"...

Opteron 165, O/C'ed to 2.46 (~on par with an FX-55) came in @ 8,081 seconds and I'm usually right in there at 7.5k-8.5k on the enhanced units. The longest it's taken me for an enhanced WU is 17,773 seconds with a short run of some that took 12k.

2,600 seconds on the old 4.18 units, meaning ~32WU/day.

Now, if you're talking about "pure," non-Crunch3r processing, then nevermind, but it can be done, relatively easily, by a non-server machine.
Main rig: AMD Opteron 165 Dual Core, 2Gb PC3200, 450Gb onboard + 1Tb RAID-5 NAS
HTPC1: P4 2.8E, 1.5Gb PC3200, 3x80Gb SATA, Fusion5Lite + PVR-250, Sony 50A10 50" HD-LCD
HTPC2: P4 2.8E, 1GB PC3200, 200Gb PATA, PVR-250, JVC 32" tube
ID: 304614 · Report as offensive
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 17847
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 304640 - Posted: 14 May 2006, 2:57:24 UTC - in response to Message 304398.  

.... Where did you pull that 24 credits off ? Thought it was intended to be more like 32 credits per WU on average ? ....

The average claim of 32 credits was for a reference unit. It was found that the reference unit took about 20% to 30% (depending on computer system) longer than an average unit so the correct average is about 75% of 32 = 24/unit.

Andy
ID: 304640 · Report as offensive
Josef W. Segur
Volunteer developer
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 30 Oct 99
Posts: 4504
Credit: 1,414,761
RAC: 0
United States
Message 304649 - Posted: 14 May 2006, 3:27:29 UTC - in response to Message 304398.  

...

Well, let's see, "classic", if a fast computer used 1h/wu and a slow 6h/wu, the fast would get 24 "wu-credit"/day while the slow 4 "wu-credit"/day, meaning fast gets 6x more credit/day.


Well it depended on the benchmarks run by boinc.

Where did you pull that 24 credits off ? Thought it was intended to be more like 32 credits per WU on average ?

Note that was "classic" (before BOINC) where 1 WU = 1 "credit".
                                                                         Joe
ID: 304649 · Report as offensive
Profile zoom3+1=4
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 30 Nov 03
Posts: 64983
Credit: 55,293,173
RAC: 49
United States
Message 304894 - Posted: 14 May 2006, 6:03:21 UTC - in response to Message 304398.  

...

Well, let's see, "classic", if a fast computer used 1h/wu and a slow 6h/wu, the fast would get 24 "wu-credit"/day while the slow 4 "wu-credit"/day, meaning fast gets 6x more credit/day.


Well it depended on the benchmarks run by boinc.

Where did you pull that 24 credits off ? Thought it was intended to be more like 32 credits per WU on average ?


SETI@Home/BOINC v4.18, if a fast computer uses 1h/wu and a slow 6h/wu, and on average gets 24 Cobblestones/wu, the fast would get 576 Cobblestones/day while the slow 96 CS/day, and again you've got fast gets 6x more credit/day.


Again... 1 hour with official 4.18 ??? Never seen that happen ;) Maybe a P4 with 4 GHz not running HT...


With Seti_Enhanced v5.12, what has changed?


Drop in credit claimed/granted.

P.S.
Anyhow...

my personal note and again what i've seen/read on various boards is that credit claims/granted is way to less.


I can't help But agree with You Crunch3r about the drop in Credits claimed/granted, As I'm expected to do 4.5 times the work and for only about twice the credits, And to get any 4.18WU's I have to allow 5.12WU's on to My systems.

I use Your App for Seti and I use Truxs 5.3.12.tx36 client to keep the cobblestones correct and from claiming more than is right and fair, Now I'm being told You need to do this extra work, And oh BTW here's a few extra credits tossed in, If It isn't the same amount of credits as before they think so what? They ought to come out of their ivory tower, I won't run their 5.4.9 client until there is a 5.4.9 compatible calibrating client as I do more than Seti, I do Einstein and Predictor too. As long as the correct amount of cobblesones were being gennerated I didn't see a problem. So am I a science Nerd? Not on Your life. You guys could have used some of that $250,000.00 on Newer hardware to keep up with the flood, Sun hardware might be nice, But 400MHz or 440MHz cpus? When were those relics made 2000? AMD owns near 50% of the Server market cause of the superior Opteron cpu, Isn't It about time the older Sun servers were changed out for Opterons?

They have 4 and 8 cpu servers now with real dual core cpu capability and sata hdd drives in 10,000rpm spindle speeds too.

All I want is the 1:1 ratio in credits vs. work to be respected, Until then No 5.12 Work Units will be processed, Only 4.18WU's will be allowed to be crunched. And I can abort every one of them as I have the time(takes very little time really or about the time to type this captioned line of text).........
The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's
ID: 304894 · Report as offensive
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 17847
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 305056 - Posted: 14 May 2006, 6:21:50 UTC - in response to Message 304894.  
Last modified: 14 May 2006, 6:23:18 UTC

...

Well, let's see, "classic", if a fast computer used 1h/wu and a slow 6h/wu, the fast would get 24 "wu-credit"/day while the slow 4 "wu-credit"/day, meaning fast gets 6x more credit/day.


Well it depended on the benchmarks run by boinc.

Where did you pull that 24 credits off ? Thought it was intended to be more like 32 credits per WU on average ?


SETI@Home/BOINC v4.18, if a fast computer uses 1h/wu and a slow 6h/wu, and on average gets 24 Cobblestones/wu, the fast would get 576 Cobblestones/day while the slow 96 CS/day, and again you've got fast gets 6x more credit/day.


Again... 1 hour with official 4.18 ??? Never seen that happen ;) Maybe a P4 with 4 GHz not running HT...


With Seti_Enhanced v5.12, what has changed?


Drop in credit claimed/granted.

P.S.
Anyhow...

my personal note and again what i've seen/read on various boards is that credit claims/granted is way to less.


I can't help But agree with You Crunch3r about the drop in Credits claimed/granted, As I'm expected to do 4.5 times the work and for only about twice the credits, And to get any 4.18WU's I have to allow 5.12WU's on to My systems.

I use Your App for Seti and I use Truxs 5.3.12.tx36 client to keep the cobblestones correct and from claiming more than is right and fair, Now I'm being told You need to do this extra work, And oh BTW here's a few extra credits tossed in, If It isn't the same amount of credits as before they think so what? They ought to come out of their ivory tower, I won't run their 5.4.9 client until there is a 5.4.9 compatible calibrating client as I do more than Seti, I do Einstein and Predictor too. As long as the correct amount of cobblesones were being gennerated I didn't see a problem. So am I a science Nerd? Not on Your life. You guys could have used some of that $250,000.00 on Newer hardware to keep up with the flood, Sun hardware might be nice, But 400MHz or 440MHz cpus? When were those relics made 2000? AMD owns near 50% of the Server market cause of the superior Opteron cpu, Isn't It about time the older Sun servers were changed out for Opterons?

They have 4 and 8 cpu servers now with real dual core cpu capability and sata hdd drives in 10,000rpm spindle speeds too.

All I want is the 1:1 ratio in credits vs. work to be respected, Until then No 5.12 Work Units will be processed, Only 4.18WU's will be allowed to be crunched. And I can abort every one of them as I have the time(takes very little time really or about the time to type this captioned line of text).........

Beginning to think the reason you are a juker is because you are not all there. I hope the village you originated from realises their idiot has gone missing.

You seem to think the excess credits you have benn granted by using Crunch3r's optimised app and Trux's BOINC client are the right figure's. But you live in cloud cockoo land. The correct credits for version 4.18 were about 24 and version 5.12 has been adjusted in testing to reflect that.

Live with it and stop your useless ranting.

Andy
ID: 305056 · Report as offensive
Profile BF
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 7 Aug 05
Posts: 17
Credit: 1,594,515
RAC: 0
Australia
Message 305072 - Posted: 14 May 2006, 6:28:35 UTC - in response to Message 304457.  

my personal note and again what i've seen/read on various boards is that credit claims/granted is way to less.

Still reminds me of pinball machines.
The early ones the maximum possible score was 9,999. Bonuses were 10 points, 100 for a huge one. The last pinball machine i saw the maximum possible score was something like 10 million, small bonuses were 10,000.
People are just greedy; it's that simple. Fair has nothing to do with it.


Very good analogy and accurate assessment..


ID: 305072 · Report as offensive
Profile zoom3+1=4
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 30 Nov 03
Posts: 64983
Credit: 55,293,173
RAC: 49
United States
Message 305089 - Posted: 14 May 2006, 6:33:54 UTC - in response to Message 305056.  

...

Well, let's see, "classic", if a fast computer used 1h/wu and a slow 6h/wu, the fast would get 24 "wu-credit"/day while the slow 4 "wu-credit"/day, meaning fast gets 6x more credit/day.


Well it depended on the benchmarks run by boinc.

Where did you pull that 24 credits off ? Thought it was intended to be more like 32 credits per WU on average ?


SETI@Home/BOINC v4.18, if a fast computer uses 1h/wu and a slow 6h/wu, and on average gets 24 Cobblestones/wu, the fast would get 576 Cobblestones/day while the slow 96 CS/day, and again you've got fast gets 6x more credit/day.


Again... 1 hour with official 4.18 ??? Never seen that happen ;) Maybe a P4 with 4 GHz not running HT...


With Seti_Enhanced v5.12, what has changed?


Drop in credit claimed/granted.

P.S.
Anyhow...

my personal note and again what i've seen/read on various boards is that credit claims/granted is way to less.


I can't help But agree with You Crunch3r about the drop in Credits claimed/granted, As I'm expected to do 4.5 times the work and for only about twice the credits, And to get any 4.18WU's I have to allow 5.12WU's on to My systems.

I use Your App for Seti and I use Truxs 5.3.12.tx36 client to keep the cobblestones correct and from claiming more than is right and fair, Now I'm being told You need to do this extra work, And oh BTW here's a few extra credits tossed in, If It isn't the same amount of credits as before they think so what? They ought to come out of their ivory tower, I won't run their 5.4.9 client until there is a 5.4.9 compatible calibrating client as I do more than Seti, I do Einstein and Predictor too. As long as the correct amount of cobblesones were being gennerated I didn't see a problem. So am I a science Nerd? Not on Your life. You guys could have used some of that $250,000.00 on Newer hardware to keep up with the flood, Sun hardware might be nice, But 400MHz or 440MHz cpus? When were those relics made 2000? AMD owns near 50% of the Server market cause of the superior Opteron cpu, Isn't It about time the older Sun servers were changed out for Opterons?

They have 4 and 8 cpu servers now with real dual core cpu capability and sata hdd drives in 10,000rpm spindle speeds too.

All I want is the 1:1 ratio in credits vs. work to be respected, Until then No 5.12 Work Units will be processed, Only 4.18WU's will be allowed to be crunched. And I can abort every one of them as I have the time(takes very little time really or about the time to type this captioned line of text).........

Beginning to think the reason you are a juker is because you are not all there. I hope the village you originated from realises their idiot has gone missing.

You seem to think the excess credits you have benn granted by using Crunch3r's optimised app and Trux's BOINC client are the right figure's. But you live in cloud cockoo land. The correct credits for version 4.18 were about 24 and version 5.12 has been adjusted in testing to reflect that.

Live with it and stop your useless ranting.

Andy



Keep My handle out of It, Or go freeze Yourself on a Winters night.

If It had been set for 24 someone would've objected to that too I'd think.
The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's
ID: 305089 · Report as offensive
Grant (SSSF)
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 19 Aug 99
Posts: 13396
Credit: 208,696,464
RAC: 304
Australia
Message 305197 - Posted: 14 May 2006, 7:41:42 UTC - in response to Message 304894.  
Last modified: 14 May 2006, 7:43:18 UTC

I use Your App for Seti and I use Truxs 5.3.12.tx36 client to keep the cobblestones correct and from claiming more than is right and fair,

And yet you bleat about now only being given what is right & fair for doing Seti work???


As long as the correct amount of cobblesones were being gennerated I didn't see a problem.

The correct amounts are now being claimed & received. The perceived problem before hand was the excessive claims for credit, then not getting what was claimed (even though it was higher than the claims of others).
Now you're upset because you're not getting as much as you were used to, even though previously you were getting more than you should have & you say that all you want is what is fair?


You guys could have used some of that $250,000.00 on Newer hardware to keep up with the flood, Sun hardware might be nice, But 400MHz or 440MHz cpus? When were those relics made 2000? AMD owns near 50% of the Server market cause of the superior Opteron cpu, Isn't It about time the older Sun servers were changed out for Opterons?


From the server status page.
jocelyn: Sun V40z (2 x 1.8GHz Opteron, 8 GB RAM)

This might come as a shock to you- but those systems aren't cheap. Then once you put come CPUs, memory, HDs in them they cost even more.
As well as new hardware & maintaining the present hardware they also need to pay the people working on the system (they need to eat, have somewhere to sleep), pay for the power bills, software licences, other replacement hardware (switches, UPSs, batteries) etc, etc.


All I want is the 1:1 ratio in credits vs. work to be respected,

That is what is now happening, yet you continue whine about how it's not fair.
Make your mind up.


Until then No 5.12 Work Units will be processed, Only 4.18WU's will be allowed to be crunched. And I can abort every one of them as I have the time

How old are you? 12?
It'll be interesting to see if you ever do grow up.
Grant
Darwin NT
ID: 305197 · Report as offensive
Jack Gulley

Send message
Joined: 4 Mar 03
Posts: 423
Credit: 526,566
RAC: 0
United States
Message 305200 - Posted: 14 May 2006, 7:43:07 UTC - in response to Message 305056.  

You seem to think the excess credits you have benn granted by using Crunch3r's optimized app and Trux's BOINC client are the right figure's. But you live in cloud cockoo land. The correct credits for version 4.18 were about 24 and version 5.12 has been adjusted in testing to reflect that.

Those "excess credits" were for using our machines more efficiently than the stock program would, and doing four times more science calculations in the same amount of time and expense. And for making the effort to use better programming skills, better compilers, better math libraries and advanced features of our processors. All of which seti "management" could have done with the stock programs, even back in "Classic" where a lot of computer processing power (and electricity) was wasted by inefficient programs.

So now Seti Enhanced is using most of those user developed improvements (under the cover of more in depth analysis) to get a lot more useful work done, yet you are insisting all this additional useful work is now worth nothing, and only credit based on what the old inefficient programs would have done should be given.

So, I and many others are now doing the same amount of useful work that we were doing (at our expense) and are only getting half to one third the credit of what we were getting for our efforts. And those who have made no effort to do more efficient work in the past are now getting a free ride.

But then, no one has ever guaranteed LIFE, or not being "The Management", is fair.
ID: 305200 · Report as offensive
Grant (SSSF)
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 19 Aug 99
Posts: 13396
Credit: 208,696,464
RAC: 304
Australia
Message 305203 - Posted: 14 May 2006, 7:45:50 UTC - in response to Message 305200.  

So, I and many others are now doing the same amount of useful work that we were doing (at our expense) and are only getting half to one third the credit of what we were getting for our efforts. And those who have made no effort to do more efficient work in the past are now getting a free ride.

But then, no one has ever guaranteed LIFE, or not being "The Management", is fair.

The reality distortion fields appear to be running at full power.
Grant
Darwin NT
ID: 305203 · Report as offensive
Profile zoom3+1=4
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 30 Nov 03
Posts: 64983
Credit: 55,293,173
RAC: 49
United States
Message 305211 - Posted: 14 May 2006, 8:03:53 UTC - in response to Message 305197.  
Last modified: 14 May 2006, 8:05:22 UTC

I use Your App for Seti and I use Truxs 5.3.12.tx36 client to keep the cobblestones correct and from claiming more than is right and fair,

And yet you bleat about now only being given what is right & fair for doing Seti work???


As long as the correct amount of cobblesones were being gennerated I didn't see a problem.

The correct amounts are now being claimed & received. The perceived problem before hand was the excessive claims for credit, then not getting what was claimed (even though it was higher than the claims of others).
Now you're upset because you're not getting as much as you were used to, even though previously you were getting more than you should have & you say that all you want is what is fair?


You guys could have used some of that $250,000.00 on Newer hardware to keep up with the flood, Sun hardware might be nice, But 400MHz or 440MHz cpus? When were those relics made 2000? AMD owns near 50% of the Server market cause of the superior Opteron cpu, Isn't It about time the older Sun servers were changed out for Opterons?


From the server status page.
jocelyn: Sun V40z (2 x 1.8GHz Opteron, 8 GB RAM)

This might come as a shock to you- but those systems aren't cheap. Then once you put come CPUs, memory, HDs in them they cost even more.
As well as new hardware & maintaining the present hardware they also need to pay the people working on the system (they need to eat, have somewhere to sleep), pay for the power bills, software licences, other replacement hardware (switches, UPSs, batteries) etc, etc.


All I want is the 1:1 ratio in credits vs. work to be respected,

That is what is now happening, yet you continue whine about how it's not fair.
Make your mind up.


Until then No 5.12 Work Units will be processed, Only 4.18WU's will be allowed to be crunched. And I can abort every one of them as I have the time

How old are you? 12?
It'll be interesting to see if you ever do grow up.


I have nearly the equivilent of jocelyn(2 x 1.8GHz Opteron, 8 GB RAM) right now, It has only 2Gb of ram of course, It sure doesn't cost $100,000.00. And jocelyn existed before the $250,000.00 campaign and is the only modern nearly upto date computer that Seti has that I know of.

Sorry about the work stuff, It was going to be deleted, The 1:1 was meant of course. Right now It's more work and less credit, What next forbid overclocked computers from running Boinc??? Whole teams are running that way.

I think I have more grey hairs than You, Junior.
The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's
ID: 305211 · Report as offensive
Grant (SSSF)
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 19 Aug 99
Posts: 13396
Credit: 208,696,464
RAC: 304
Australia
Message 305218 - Posted: 14 May 2006, 8:13:50 UTC - in response to Message 305211.  

I have nearly the equivilent of jocelyn(2 x 1.8GHz Opteron, 8 GB RAM) right now, It has only 2Gb of ram of course, It sure doesn't cost $100,000.00.

Desktop system, or rackmount?
You can get "decent" priced dual core dual CPU work station systems, but once you start going for managable rackmount gear with redundant power supplies etc, the prices skyrocket.
Also the problem isn't just servers, it's network equipment & suitable UPSs, airconditioning so it all keeps going when the temperature's rise & on & on it goes.


Right now It's more work and less credit,

As has happened before in the days of Seti classic. There was a lot of wailing & knashing of teeth back then as well.
People get used to seeing a certain number next to so many seconds of processing. And if that number gets smaller over time instead of bigger then the world must be ending, even though it's the same for everyone.
*shrug*


What next forbid overclocked computers from running Boinc??? Whole teams are running that way.

BOINC has resulted in just that- because many of the Seti classic Work Units returned were nothing but errors. As long as the work done is valid, it will be accepted & people will get their credits. The more Work Units they do, the more credits they will get per hour. So overclockers have nothing to be concerned about- as long as they produce results, not noise.

I think I have more grey hairs than You, Junior.

Geez, i hope not.
I started going grey in my late 20s & that was some time ago now.
*too depressing to think about*
Grant
Darwin NT
ID: 305218 · Report as offensive
Jack Gulley

Send message
Joined: 4 Mar 03
Posts: 423
Credit: 526,566
RAC: 0
United States
Message 305219 - Posted: 14 May 2006, 8:20:21 UTC - in response to Message 305197.  

Now you're upset because you're not getting as much as you were used to, even though previously you were getting more than you should have & you say that all you want is what is fair?

"Upset"? No just very disappointed, yet again, in how the Setiathome project is now being ran for the sake of BOINC and it's "new wave computer theology".

"you were getting more than you should have" - Not when I look at most of my Credit Granted numbers. While Trux's calibration usually claimed 32, usually only 21 or so was granted on average, and often much less. Trux pointed out that his use of 32 credits was not to actually receive that much, but to bring the project average granted back up closer to the expected levels. There were a lot of big anonymous farms out there using optimized applications who's machines were only claiming 6 credits or so and this was dragging down the whole setiathome average, despite the efforts of some groups of cheaters to inflate their granted credits.
ID: 305219 · Report as offensive
Previous · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 · 7 · 8 . . . 23 · Next

Message boards : Number crunching : Seti Enhanced Credit Fair?


 
©2022 University of California
 
SETI@home and Astropulse are funded by grants from the National Science Foundation, NASA, and donations from SETI@home volunteers. AstroPulse is funded in part by the NSF through grant AST-0307956.