Seti Enhanced Credit Fair?

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Profile Jord
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Message 308021 - Posted: 16 May 2006, 23:55:02 UTC - in response to Message 308010.  

the enhanced app. should not have been released in the first place because its to buggy

At the time of release you knew 5.12 wasn't stable on Win9x/SE/ME systems, so why release an optimized client for it? It wasn't anything to do with the graphics, as yours has none. Eric had said it wasn't the stable client for Win9x systems and that he would still work on that, hence why we're at 5.15 in Beta.

Anyway regarding beeing a stable app. well the most stable is still the optimized app...

The normal application is stable as well on Non Win9x systems. Some results can be unstable, but even your app crashes on them.
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Profile Crunch3r
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Message 308030 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 0:10:16 UTC - in response to Message 308021.  


The normal application is stable as well on Non Win9x systems. Some results can be unstable, but even your app crashes on them.


well it might happen that the app. crash but the official crashes X times more often and you know that.





Join BOINC United now!
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Message 308046 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 0:33:00 UTC - in response to Message 307940.  

The door is on your left. :)


Although English is not my native tonge, I am quite sure that "Moderator" means the one that cools down, not heats up discussions.

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Jack Gulley

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Message 308052 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 0:37:27 UTC - in response to Message 308021.  

At the time of release you knew 5.12 wasn't stable on Win9x/SE/ME systems, so why release an optimized client for it? It wasn't anything to do with the graphics, as yours has none. Eric had said it wasn't the stable client for Win9x systems and that he would still work on that, hence why we're at 5.15 in Beta.

So they released an application that is NOT stable on Windows 98/ME, and then turn around and force all users, including those running Windows 98/ME systems, to only use the new Enhanced application?

Sort of gives you a clue what they think of the older more experienced users who were around helping out during early Seti@home days, and who know what to expect from Seti project management, and are willing to voice their objections.


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archae86

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Message 308053 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 0:37:29 UTC - in response to Message 307960.  


I wonder why they aren't all crunching HashClash. 10,000 results/day quota. All running in 2 minutes or less. Must be fun.

Ageless,

They are not because you have misconstrued their motives.

When your model badly fails to predict the outcome, both common sense and science suggest that you question the model.

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Hans Dorn
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Message 308057 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 0:40:20 UTC - in response to Message 308046.  
Last modified: 17 May 2006, 0:40:43 UTC


Although English is not my native tonge, I am quite sure that "Moderator" means the one that cools down, not heats up discussions.


I second that.

IMO we should try to keep up a friendly atmosphere in the fora.
I would expect the mods to be an example in this regard....

I have bitten my tongue more than once in the last days instead of posting flames.

Regards Hans

P.S: Every contribution to the science counts, even if it is a big one :o)

P.P.S Most of the stuff posted over in the cafe seems to make more sense than what I'm reading here.
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Profile Jord
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Message 308070 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 0:53:13 UTC - in response to Message 308057.  
Last modified: 17 May 2006, 1:10:02 UTC

IMO we should try to keep up a friendly atmosphere in the fora.
I would expect the mods to be an example in this regard....

Usually you don't see me posting things like that, but since the person I addressed made it clear that either Seti had to follow his rules, or he would leave, I gave him the option.

And there are many more here who just say the same thing: You Seti change things to our liking, or we go. What would your reaction be at any such time? No one is listening to anything the other person says. No matter what is explained, Seti Enhanced is a bad thing and as such it must go.

Well, Newsflash for everyone who missed it: 4.18 is no longer split.
The splitters are only splitting Seti Enhanced results. So you can only still get 4.18s if they are in the Ready to Send queue and after that you only have two choices:

1. You leave, as you said you would. Hence the door.
2. You bite back on your comments, actually run more than one result and read up about why SE was released, what the differences with 4.18 are and wait for the next version to come out.

There aren't really any other choices. Demanding that Seti follow your way didn't work when Classic was shut down, it won't work now there is a new application.
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Robert Everly
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Message 308080 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 1:08:19 UTC

I for one welcome Enhanced, fpops counting and all. :)
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Daniel Schaalma
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Message 308115 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 1:55:22 UTC

I NEVER said ONCE that enhanced was BAD. I understand full well the need to analyze the signals in greater detail. What I AM protesting is the SUDDEN REDUCTION OF CREDIT between v5.11 and v5.12. All we are asking for is to be able to earn credits at the SAME RATE as we just were.

If the credits are so worthless, then why is it that the people who care about them the LEAST are so against credit earnings as the were. The only people who are benefiting from the reduced credits and actually getting more of them then they were before, are the ones who didn't optimize in the first place, because they didn't care about credit? The only ones getting more credit from this, are people who don't care about credit. How ironic. Yet all we are asking for is CANCELING the REDUCTION of the granted credit for enhanced. The credits are worthless to you, remember. I am thinking that the only reason to oppose this, is because those who claim not to care about credit are so green with ENVY at those of us that can afford to build and support very large farms, that they applaud ANY opportunity to cut us down to size. Kind of like "hey, I don't have the resources to do that, so let's make the top people feel as miserable as I do, THEN we'll be even!" I may be wrong, but it sure sounds like this is what is going on here, although no one will ever admit to it.

Do we, the power users, have to go on strike to prove our point? That would be very interesting if everyone who crunches for credit disabled their network access on their entire fleets at the same time for 48 hours. Then do a "study" to see how much work gets reported during the strike. Since Berkeley was the focal point of the "Free Speech" Movement back in the '60's, I'm sure this should be right up their alley.

As I said before, read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. To anyone who has, you'll know exactly why I feel the way I do.

Regards, Daniel.
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Message 308117 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 2:01:39 UTC - in response to Message 308080.  

I for one welcome Enhanced, fpops counting and all. :)

I welcome it too. Gets rid of some of the organized cheating with high claims and low ball claims from some systems that drag the granted credit down.

I don't like their accounting that assigns only twice the credit to six times the actual work (fpops) being done. Nor do I like long running WU's that vary greatly in run time, at least not with any option to specify if I want to run long or short ones.

I am here for the search and details of it progress. I can not say I am here for "The Science" as there has been none, other than "Nothing of interest has been found". There is no science information being returned to us or learned by us for our effort. And I doubt that we would even hear about it until the paper on it was published. At least Seti Classic had some results analysis information that was updated from time to time. All we have here is BOINC.
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Message 308136 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 2:30:49 UTC - in response to Message 308115.  

snip
What I AM protesting is the SUDDEN REDUCTION OF CREDIT between v5.11 and v5.12. All we are asking for is to be able to earn credits at the SAME RATE as we just were.
big snip


Version 5.11 was the first Seti-Enhanced optimized app released by Crunch3r under heavy pressure from the Boinc community for an optimized version. It was claiming 3 times more credit than the stock Berkeley app and was superceeded by version 5.12 a few days later. And you feel that the Boinc developers should embrace 5.11 as the official version? How can they do that? 5.11 is not an official Boinc release, it is Crunch3r's release!


Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....
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Message 308139 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 2:34:21 UTC - in response to Message 308115.  
Last modified: 17 May 2006, 2:36:28 UTC

Do we, the power users, have to go on strike to prove our point? That would be very interesting if everyone who crunches for credit disabled their network access on their entire fleets at the same time for 48 hours. Then do a "study" to see how much work gets reported during the strike. Since Berkeley was the focal point of the "Free Speech" Movement back in the '60's, I'm sure this should be right up their alley.


I don't consider myself to be a power user - I have no fleet, just an 800MHz notebook and a 3.2 GHz desktop crunching.

However, I too am very disappointed with the reduction in daily credit given with "enhanced". I have been running the optimized client and app with the previous software because I felt it was unfair that faster computers were not being granted credit equal to slower computers on average with the non-optimized app and client. Why should faster computers be penalized just because they are faster? Now, with enhanced, a lot of people are arguing that granted credit doesn't change as much if you were not running enhanced before and insinuating that those who ran optimized were somehow cheating to monger more credits. I totally disagree! We were just trying to get fair credit (avg 32 credits) per completed WU like the slower computers were claiming!

I am also disappointed, after having donated to SETI@Home during the funding drive this year, that these complaints are not being addressed in a more forthright manner.

Therefore, I fully support a 48 hour strike to help get the point across. And if that doesn't get the attention of the decision makers, I may consider leaving the project. It costs nothing to give us fair credit for the work we do for the project, but it will cost the project dearly if people start leaving.


http://www.setiusa.net
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Daniel Schaalma
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Message 308163 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 2:56:38 UTC - in response to Message 308136.  
Last modified: 17 May 2006, 2:58:51 UTC

Version 5.11 was the first Seti-Enhanced optimized app released by Crunch3r under heavy pressure from the Boinc community for an optimized version. It was claiming 3 times more credit than the stock Berkeley app and was superceeded by version 5.12 a few days later. And you feel that the Boinc developers should embrace 5.11 as the official version? How can they do that? 5.11 is not an official Boinc release, it is Crunch3r's release!


I NEVER ASKED to make 5.11 the offical APP!!! I DID say the the credits awarded by v5.11 should be awarded by v5.12!! It's just the MULTIPLIER reduction that we are upset about! And, by the way, there WAS an official 5.11 NON optimized app. It was THAT code that Crunch3r optimized, then when UCB released v5.12, and Crunch3r released v5.12, the only difference was a LOWER MULTIPLIER! Please get your facts straight.

Regards, Daniel.
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Message 308169 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 2:59:54 UTC

It is getting pretty ridiculous that people OPPOSE increasing granted credit similar to what Seti Beta was producing?!?!?

If someone goes to the gas station to fill their tank and it costs $3 a gallon (which is painful for many). Wouldn't people prefer getting more gas for their money?

People that are upset w/the new enhanced credit system are simply requesting that they earn what beta pre-enhanced had given. It is obvious in the last revision of beta/enhanced that they suddenly changed the credit system..and it is fair for some to be upset about the sudden change.


re: I too am in agreement that the moderator leadership here has gotten pretty bad as of late.
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Message 308185 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 3:18:42 UTC - in response to Message 307940.  
Last modified: 17 May 2006, 3:26:59 UTC

I'll wait until I can no longer get 4.18 work, and then I'll be gone.

Which is per now.

News from the front page:
May 16, 2006
All of our splitters have been altered to create workunits for SETI@home enhanced.


The door is on your left. :)

Are you one of the patients? :)
Thanks, for your patients during this transition. 


Well, when the Admin shows you the door, I guess it's time to leave...... It really shows how the people running this project feel about the folks who are VOLUNTEERING to do work for them....


The last Seven Years have been a real slice.... C Ya.



~I like my beer dark, cigars strong, coffee black, bourbon straight and politicians on the end of a rope~
Mark Twain
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W-K 666 Project Donor
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Message 308197 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 3:28:33 UTC

The first official release here on mainstream Seti was 5.12, how and why Crunch3r allowed his 5.11 to be released, I cannot understand. It is probably the most significant single issue that started the credit 'discussions' here about enhanced.

@BlkJack-21
The only reason we were getting those very high credits on Beta was because as they introduced more and more optimisation, the devs did not alter the credit calculation. To do so would have been counter-productive at that stage, it real terms it was better to get the crunching code right and at the end worry about the credit calculation just before release on mainstream.

To get to the point where credits were high, those of us who crunched on Beta from the beginning went through periods of very low credits, no credits because versions crashed etc.

To be honest I was surprised when the Beta credits were added to the overall BOINC totals, I think it was only done to try and get more volunteers.
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Message 308210 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 3:43:59 UTC

Let's see now...........

Dr. Anderson mandated to Eric Korpela that the credits here should be kept on par with other projects. Eric chose a multiplier, 3.35 I believe, to keep the claimed credits here on par with the previous Boinc app 4.18 and rightly so since I am sure Eric likes his job.

We know from all these years with Dr. Anderson running the projects that we are not going to change his mind. His decision to keep Seti-Enhanced on an equal par with the other projects is the only decision he could make! If more credits are earned here than other projects it is unfair to the other projects!

Why is that so hard to understand? Everyone, including myself, who operated with optimized apps was in effect over achieving and now has been set straight. I can live with that! It's a level playing field now.

Go ahead and quit if you choose so. One day I and many others will overtake your score and I don't feel bad about that at all.

Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....
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Message 308222 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 4:03:10 UTC
Last modified: 17 May 2006, 4:31:26 UTC

right now so many people are upset and saying things... with the upgrade to BOINC 5.4.9 and applications that can actually level the playing field it is the first chance ever to give the little guy a chance! Of course if you have more computers you have more chances... Some really miss that...

So while everyone is worked up about My RAC has dropped, and now I am not happy. I will say that "MY" RAC has dropped and some things are not a done deal.
The hate and discontent is forcing someone to do something that they might regret later... I took a year off from Seti Classic because of hardware issues... That same hardware is still running today...

So if everyone "Chills" for a bit and let the transition happen then the missing data can be examined...

Otherwise "users" that have been a part of the Beta are now Targets!. I am one of those Users that shifted a whole bunch of resources to test and make Enhanced the best it can be! Right now though I am one of Crunch3r's "testers" I am running mostly barefoot for the credit analysis... Until the transtion to Seti Enhanced is complete we are all getting frustration off our chests...

If I were to get "nasty" I see members of teams here complaining and do NOT See those Teams helping in Beta... Sorry I warned you and you chose to ignore it! YOU and everyone had a chance to go look, YOU could have Grabbed some Prime Credits! You missed out!

I will add further insult to injury... So while You Spend thousands on Computers! You can not spare $20.00 to donate to keep Seti Alive, now you are complaining that they are not doing what you want; I have less sympathy... Well, YOU are Killing Your "Cash Cow!" As the rest of the BOINC projects migrate to the "leveled playing field," I guess that BOINC Projects will take on a whole new look...

So once again, everyone take a moment to cool down!

If you really want someone to send Hate Mail to the email address is al.setiboinc (at) gmail.com. I only have 14 computers and a team of 4 people those members of the team have generated quite a bit, in a little over a year...

In a couple of days we be will crossing the 2 Million Credits, not bad for 4 people...

If you really want to know that I have done...


You are Welcome to look...

This does not mention that my personal website is a mirror for boinc.mundayweb.com. Please also consider a Donation there... Its only Credits!

Pappa

Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

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Message 308232 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 4:22:49 UTC - in response to Message 308210.  

Let's see now...........

Dr. Anderson mandated to Eric Korpela that the credits here should be kept on par with other projects. Eric chose a multiplier, 3.35 I believe, to keep the claimed credits here on par with the previous Boinc app 4.18 and rightly so since I am sure Eric likes his job.

We know from all these years with Dr. Anderson running the projects that we are not going to change his mind. His decision to keep Seti-Enhanced on an equal par with the other projects is the only decision he could make! If more credits are earned here than other projects it is unfair to the other projects!

Why is that so hard to understand? Everyone, including myself, who operated with optimized apps was in effect over achieving and now has been set straight. I can live with that! It's a level playing field now.

Go ahead and quit if you choose so. One day I and many others will overtake your score and I don't feel bad about that at all.


I don't consider myself to be wholly on either side of this argument, so take my opinions as a central moderate on the issue... but their definitely seems to be a disparity in the pure credit curve used by Eric for the majority of non-optimized users as well. The original plan was to keep the credit/hours work essentially equivalent between 4.18 and 5.12 using the new FP based system even when the WUs would take longer... unfortunately according to some mentions in other threads, the 3.35 multiplier (and the non-linear curve for various AR) were calculated on a Sun box that did not reflect the FP characteristics of the most prevalent platforms used in SETI@Home, namely Windows and Intel based PCs (not to alienate Macs or Linux of course, but they also exhibit similar characteristics to the WinTels in this case). The results are credit returns that do not match up with what was intended (optimized or not).

Therefore, even though I don't back up the methods used by those clamoring for more credits...there are some arguments to be made on that side of the fence as well, and I wouldn't take 5.12's credit dolling capability as the "final word" on the issue. The SETI folk just need time to take a look at all the incoming results and over time with the new SETI Enhanced, adjust the granting of credits in the more balanced way they originally intended.

For those of you who did decide to stay, your best bet on getting your RAC back up is to stick around, crunch as much as you can, and wait on the next versions once the usual May University hustle and bustle is done (I bet many of the SETI folk are actually away on vacation, studying/taking Final Exams, or otherwise occupied with Graduation/Commencement). 1 Week of actual release time and a few days of completed quorum results are hardly enough to actually get an accurate assessment of how to tweak/adjust the system, especially when short staffed.
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Message 308233 - Posted: 17 May 2006, 4:22:57 UTC

Seti@Home used to be a search for extraterrestrial intelligence. Now, IMO, that is a secondary goal. The main goal now, for the most popular and successful distributed computing project ever, is to supply users for other BOINC projects.

Seti@Home doesn't have funding. They have been forced to ask us for donations, with which I was more than happy to help. BOINC, on the other hand, does have some funding and seems to be the main thrust of David Anderson's efforts nowadays.

Perhaps I'm a cynic, but I am starting to believe that Seti@Home wants to drive users over to other projects to further the commitment to BOINC which has overtaken the commitment to Seti@Home. I like to think of it as Seti@Home now being the farm team for BOINC and nothing more...

I have done my best to help Seti@Home and as such I will now do what they want me to do; I am slowly moving over to other projects. I may come back one day - who knows.

Thankfully I know where the door is so I don't have to rely on directions from Ageless, and not to worry, I won't let it hit me on the butt on the way out. By the way, that was truly one of the dumbest moves I've ever seen from a forum mod.

Thanks for all the fish ;)
Proud member of Team Starfire World BOINC

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Message boards : Number crunching : Seti Enhanced Credit Fair?


 
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