Seti Enhanced Credit Fair?

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Profile SargeD@SETI.USA
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Message 312586 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 17:36:41 UTC - in response to Message 311292.  


Don't know what you're doing on Einstein I claim 10 and average granted over 30 for the longer unit which take 45 mins.


And can you tell me how that is equalized by Berkeley's new credit system? I thought the goal was to make them as equal as possible across the different projects? Seems to me that is not the case based on your comment above. Berkeley's goal will only work if all projects participate and apparently they are not.

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Message 312601 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 18:33:36 UTC - in response to Message 312586.  


Don't know what you're doing on Einstein I claim 10 and average granted over 30 for the longer unit which take 45 mins.


And can you tell me how that is equalized by Berkeley's new credit system? I thought the goal was to make them as equal as possible across the different projects? Seems to me that is not the case based on your comment above. Berkeley's goal will only work if all projects participate and apparently they are not.

I was commenting on sideband's lack of observation, inability to understand what he reads and lack of understanding simple facts, and was making no comment on the levelness of the credits across the BOINC projects. If sideband was to use the right app he can for a short period until the end of S4, due to finish mid June, still keep his credits/time up.

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Message 312618 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 19:22:44 UTC

I think sideband's observations were valid and well-informed. He has plenty of experience crunching SETI, and I share his concerns about the new credit system providing less credit for more work.

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Message 312620 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 19:24:54 UTC - in response to Message 312521.  


My rac was over 24,000, and now it's dropping probably to the 10k range. I don't care, as everyone else's will do the same. My fast computers, once things settle down, will still be in the top 20, I'll still be gaining on the same people as I was.

What I can't understand even more is people and teams that aren't switching to enhanced until they absolutely have to simply because their credits will drop.



I find this extremely funny, considering the posts by you and your teammates on the BBR board. This is 180 degrees from what you and most of them were saying when you thought Seti.USA was threatening your position. Oh, I forgot, the reduction in credits granted will extend our time to overtake you by a factor of about 3 (or more). Hmmm, that may be a very good reason to flop sides.


Sarge, I believe you are insinuating that Xaak is being hypocritical. And, I believe you are correct.


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Message 312669 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 21:07:57 UTC - in response to Message 312618.  

Hi,
I think sideband's observations were valid and well-informed. He has plenty of experience crunching SETI, and I share his concerns about the new credit system providing less credit for more work.

Steve (and sideband and Sarge and others), could you please show us the "less credit for more work" on this graph? Thank you.



Regards,
Carsten
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Message 312686 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 21:24:13 UTC

Carsten:

Our team RAC has 'only' dropped from 605k to 549k so far, and ONLY because most of us kept crunching the old 4.18 WUs for as long as we could get them - I still have a day's worth of 4.18 WUs on my notebook.

Our RAC is currently in freefall, but there has not been enough time lapse yet to illustrate this dramatically in that chart. It will become dramatic over the next 2 weeks though!

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Message 312689 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 21:30:09 UTC - in response to Message 312686.  
Last modified: 21 May 2006, 21:30:25 UTC

Carsten:

Our team RAC has 'only' dropped from 605k to 549k so far, and ONLY because most of us kept crunching the old 4.18 WUs for as long as we could get them - I still have a day's worth of 4.18 WUs on my notebook.

Our RAC is currently in freefall, but there has not been enough time lapse yet to illustrate this dramatically in that chart. It will become dramatic over the next 2 weeks though!


Since Seti.Germany has hardly been as "optimized" as Seti.USA, there will be a shift w.r.t RAC in the next weeks.

Regards Hans

P.S: I have no doubt that Seti.USA won't grow enough to catch us again, though :o)
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Message 312697 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 21:37:31 UTC - in response to Message 312689.  

Since Seti.Germany has hardly been as "optimized" as Seti.USA, there will be a shift w.r.t RAC in the next weeks.

Regards Hans

P.S: I have no doubt that Seti.USA won't grow enough to catch us again, though :o)


Actually, Hans, I am seeing very similar and proportional RAC decreases for all 3 top producing teams - SETI.USA, BBR Starfire, and SETI.Germany. Here are the changes I have observed thus far...

SETI.USA: approx. 605k -> 549k
BBR Starfire: approx. 597k -> 512k
SETI.Germany: approx. 520k -> 457k

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Message 312703 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 21:41:12 UTC - in response to Message 312689.  

Carsten:

Our team RAC has 'only' dropped from 605k to 549k so far, and ONLY because most of us kept crunching the old 4.18 WUs for as long as we could get them - I still have a day's worth of 4.18 WUs on my notebook.

Our RAC is currently in freefall, but there has not been enough time lapse yet to illustrate this dramatically in that chart. It will become dramatic over the next 2 weeks though!


Since Seti.Germany has hardly been as "optimized" as Seti.USA, there will be a shift w.r.t RAC in the next weeks.

Regards Hans

P.S: I have no doubt that Seti.USA won't grow enough to catch us again, though :o)


Hello,

if i'm getting this correct you can allready see the trend of what Steve referes to



Anyhow i'm not a "statistical guy" corect me if i'm wrong.
P.S. i realy do hate statistics :-(


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Message 312704 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 21:43:42 UTC - in response to Message 312697.  
Last modified: 21 May 2006, 21:44:40 UTC

Since Seti.Germany has hardly been as "optimized" as Seti.USA, there will be a shift w.r.t RAC in the next weeks.

Regards Hans

P.S: I have no doubt that Seti.USA won't grow enough to catch us again, though :o)


Actually, Hans, I am seeing very similar and proportional RAC decreases for all 3 top producing teams - SETI.USA, BBR Starfire, and SETI.Germany. Here are the changes I have observed thus far...

SETI.USA: approx. 605k -> 549k 91%
BBR Starfire: approx. 597k -> 512k 86%
SETI.Germany: approx. 520k -> 457k 88%



Right. We're dropping even faster than you, oh well...

Regards Hans
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Message 312711 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 21:49:42 UTC
Last modified: 21 May 2006, 21:57:38 UTC

Here's the graph for the PC Perspective Killer Frogs and You can noticed the drop on the right. This is for Seti Only, Ned Slider is part of the PC Perspective Killer Frogs and one guy there liked being called a Credit Whore when I mentioned It. Me I didn't like It and yes I'm waiting as I have a right to change My mind and at the moment have all the 4.18 WU's been validated and given credit? Possibly not, So I'll wait.


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Message 312735 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 22:11:09 UTC - in response to Message 312703.  

Carsten:

Our team RAC has 'only' dropped from 605k to 549k so far, and ONLY because most of us kept crunching the old 4.18 WUs for as long as we could get them - I still have a day's worth of 4.18 WUs on my notebook.

Our RAC is currently in freefall, but there has not been enough time lapse yet to illustrate this dramatically in that chart. It will become dramatic over the next 2 weeks though!

Since Seti.Germany has hardly been as "optimized" as Seti.USA, there will be a shift w.r.t RAC in the next weeks.
Regards Hans

P.S: I have no doubt that Seti.USA won't grow enough to catch us again, though :o)


Hello,
if i'm getting this correct you can allready see the trend of what Steve referes to

Anyhow i'm not a "statistical guy" corect me if i'm wrong.
P.S. i realy do hate statistics :-(



I have seen my RAC drop from 30K to 25K as more and more of my machines start crunching the enhanced version. And YES they are all optimized both with 4.11 and enhanced. The drop in daily credits and work produced is across the board, fewer WU's are being crunched, less credit is being claimed/granted. From what I can see on my current machines there will be a 40% total reduction on the work performed. Two steps back, one step forward. If Berkeley/Seti wants to maintain the current amount of work performed they will have to rethink their position on credits granted per WU, otherwise there will be an exodus to other projects that crunchers have determined will grant them the credit due for work completed. I don't think this is what Berkeley had in mind, but I can already see it happening. RAC is going up across the board in other projects, this can only mean one thing, that crunchers are moving away from seti to other projects, and this will continue.
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Message 312757 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 22:28:38 UTC

Hello all,

*riesenseufzer*

I give up ... It's useless ...

Regards,
Carsten
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Message 312760 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 22:29:20 UTC

Here are some statistics that I have pulled together from 3 different computers using different versions of the Seti app:

Genuine Intel (R) Pentium(R) 4 650 CPU 3.40GHz running Microsoft Windows XP Professional Edition, Service Pack 2, (05.01.2600.00)

5.3.12.tx36 BOINC client and standard Seti V4.18 (average of 23 work units)
CPU time = 2,072.61 sec., Claimed credit = 16.81 CS/hr., Granted credit = 23.30 CS/hr.

5.3.12.tx36 BOINC client and Crunch3r’s Seti SSE3 V4.11 (average of 97 work units)
CPU time = 3,110.58 sec., Claimed credit = 34.90 CS/hr., Granted credit = 29.81 CS/hr.

5.3.12.tx36 BOINC client and Crunch3r’s Seti SSE3 V5.11 (average of 34 work units)
CPU time = 12,654.50 sec., Claimed credit = 40.92 CS/hr., Granted credit = 15.71 CS/hr.

5.3.12.tx36 BOINC client and Crunch3r’s Seti SSE3 V5.12 (average of 31 work units)
CPU time = 13,751.11 sec., Claimed credit = 14.38 CS/hr., Granted credit = 14.13 CS/hr.


Authentic AMD AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3000+ running Linux 2.6.16-1.2108_FC4

5.3.12.tx36 BOINC client and Crunch3r’s Seti SSE3 V5.12 (average of 11 work units)
CPU time = 9,033.28 sec., Claimed credit = 13.56 CS/hr., Granted credit = 13.93 CS/hr.


Authentic AMD Athlon (tm) 64 Processor 3000+ running Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional Edition, Service Pack 4, (05.00.2195.00)

5.3.12.tx36 BOINC client and Crunch3r’s Seti SSE3 V5.11 (average of 26 work units)
CPU time = 11,120.90 sec., Claimed credit = 53.18 CS/hr., Granted credit = 20.08 CS/hr.


From the above results, the out and out winner for all of those accused of being credit whores and cheats is the 5.3.12.tx36 BOINC client and Crunch3r’s Seti SSE3 V5.11 combination. This should light up a big bonfire under the backsides of all the self-righteous folks here.

For those using older BOINC clients such as 4.25, 4.43 and 4.45 here is an example of someone using the 4.45 BOINC client with the standard Seti 5.15 app:

Genuine Intel (R) Pentium(R) M processor 1600MHz running Microsoft Windows XP Professional Edition, Service Pack 2, (05.01.2600.00)
CPU time = 79,523.20 sec., Claimed credit = 8.81 CS/hr., Granted credit = 2.56 CS/hr.

NOTE: This was right from WinterKnight’s second example (5.12 14,287s granted 56.46 = 14.23/hr wu id=78922770). So who’s the big bad credit whore and cheat now???


Fun aside; it would be nice if those of us that are running other projects could post their CS/hr here so that we may all compare the data. For the comparison, it would be best that TruXoft’s 5.3.12.tx36 BOINC client and computers as close to the ones mentioned above be used. Averages of 25 to 50 work units would great and more would be better.

My RAC has dropped from 1980 to 1334.

Franz
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Message 312768 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 22:37:21 UTC - in response to Message 312757.  
Last modified: 21 May 2006, 22:38:28 UTC

Hello all,

*riesenseufzer*

I give up ... It's useless ...

Regards,
Carsten


Don't.

The graph Crunch3r posted shows a drop by less than 10%. This means that the overall transition to enhanced worked reasonably well.

The bigger drop for us "optimized" folks is a different affair.

Regards Hans
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Message 312772 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 22:40:17 UTC - in response to Message 312768.  
Last modified: 21 May 2006, 22:41:34 UTC

Hello all,

*riesenseufzer*

I give up ... It's useless ...

Regards,
Carsten


Don't.

The graph Crunch3r posted shows a drop by less than 10%. This means that the transition to enhanced worked reasonably well.

Regards Hans


In case you missed it, everyone's RAC is just beginning to rapidly drop. It will continue to drop dramatically for some time now.

I would give up Carsten, because the data will not support your case.

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Message 312785 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 22:51:01 UTC
Last modified: 21 May 2006, 23:31:37 UTC

My position is that the WU's size doesn't really matter as long as It's not too excessive(Largest is about 4hrs:50mins or so on Joker3, On Joker2 I have 3 files that are HUGE and are at 7:00, 7:18 and 7:23 respectively[hr/min]), All I know is under the previous system I never got the full claimed credit(which is fine), the Granted Credit varied, At times It would be around 8 credits and other times It would be near 24 or so, So It wasn't consistent. Under the New credit scheme You get what the majority files for or so I think(Quorum). If a WU takes 4 hours You get whatever the WU is supposed to be worth, If It has the same value as a shorter WU You are effectively getting less per hour. So as someone who has the optimized Crunch3r app(5.12 SSE3 from Crunch3r), the 5.3.12.Tx36 client from Trux on top of the 5.3.16 Boinc install, I don't see myself as a cheater, We shall see what the drop is for us all, Hopefully something will be done. Right now I'm restricting My internet access to seti, Telling It I have less bandwidth so that maybe I'll get smaller files(If I have to I'll set It to near dial-up speeds), Like smaller than 2.5 hours per WU or so. In any case I'll wait, But not forever.
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Message 312806 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 23:30:10 UTC - in response to Message 312703.  
Last modified: 21 May 2006, 23:30:56 UTC



Hello,

if i'm getting this correct you can allready see the trend of what Steve referes to



Anyhow i'm not a "statistical guy" corect me if i'm wrong.
P.S. i realy do hate statistics :-(

When you are doing statistics, you need to be careful about the sample.

In your graph, we have a team, and presumably the team members got everyone on to optimized apps.

Your sample is "Members of TEAM OC UK" and is more likely to have had "optimized" apps.

The graph below from BOINCstats.com shows project-wide.

[img=http://www.boincstats.com/stats/project_graph3.php?pr=sah&table=credits]

This suggests that in fact credits haven't changed a whole lot across the entire project.

So, yeah, TEAM OC UK is seeing a big drop, but overall things look about the same.

Your mileage may vary.
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Message 312809 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 23:36:50 UTC

Ned - that chart is for the entire SETI@Home project.

http://www.teamocuk.com/cprojectcred.php?p=SAH

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Message 312810 - Posted: 21 May 2006, 23:40:59 UTC - in response to Message 312785.  

My position is that the WU's size doesn't really matter as long as It's not too excessive(Largest is about 4hrs:50mins or so on Joker3, On Joker2 I have 3 files that are HUGE and are at 7:00, 7:18 and 7:23 respectively[hr/min]), All I know is under the previous system I never got the full claimed credit(which is fine), the Granted Credit varied, At times It would be around 8 credits and other times It would be near 24 or so, So It wasn't consistent. Under the New credit scheme You get what the majority files for or so I think(Quorum). If a WU takes 4 hours You get whatever the WU is supposed to be worth, If It has the same value as a shorter WU You are effectively getting less per hour. So as someone who has the optimized Crunch3r app(5.12 SSE3 from Crunch3r), the 5.3.12.Tx36 client from Trux on top of the 5.3.16 Boinc install, I don't see myself as a cheater, We shall see what the drop is for us all, Hopefully something will be done. Right now I'm restricting My internet access to seti, Telling It I have less bandwidth so that maybe I'll get smaller files(If I have to I'll set It to near dial-up speeds), Like smaller than 2.5 hours per WU or so. In any case I'll wait, But not forever.

You can set your internet connection to whatever you want. It won't affect the "size" of the wu you get. All work units are roughly the ssame "size" as in filesize. The difference comes in when you look at the "angle range" of the work unit. Some angle ranges simply take longer to crunch than others. You can't tell the angle range by the file size as all wu's are the same size. When you are talking about setting your connection speed, it seems to me like you are asking to get physically smaller files but it doesn't work that way.
Jim

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Others live life day by day and look back at the wealth of experiences and enjoyment they've had.
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