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Seti Enhanced Credit Fair?
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SargeD@SETI.USA Send message Joined: 24 Nov 02 Posts: 957 Credit: 3,848,754 RAC: 0 |
And can you tell me how that is equalized by Berkeley's new credit system? I thought the goal was to make them as equal as possible across the different projects? Seems to me that is not the case based on your comment above. Berkeley's goal will only work if all projects participate and apparently they are not. |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19398 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
I was commenting on sideband's lack of observation, inability to understand what he reads and lack of understanding simple facts, and was making no comment on the levelness of the credits across the BOINC projects. If sideband was to use the right app he can for a short period until the end of S4, due to finish mid June, still keep his credits/time up. Andy |
Steve @ SETI.USA Send message Joined: 5 Sep 04 Posts: 189 Credit: 1,016,797 RAC: 0 |
I think sideband's observations were valid and well-informed. He has plenty of experience crunching SETI, and I share his concerns about the new credit system providing less credit for more work. http://www.setiusa.net |
Steve @ SETI.USA Send message Joined: 5 Sep 04 Posts: 189 Credit: 1,016,797 RAC: 0 |
Sarge, I believe you are insinuating that Xaak is being hypocritical. And, I believe you are correct. http://www.setiusa.net |
Idefix Send message Joined: 7 Sep 99 Posts: 154 Credit: 482,193 RAC: 0 |
Hi, I think sideband's observations were valid and well-informed. He has plenty of experience crunching SETI, and I share his concerns about the new credit system providing less credit for more work. Steve (and sideband and Sarge and others), could you please show us the "less credit for more work" on this graph? Thank you. Regards, Carsten |
Steve @ SETI.USA Send message Joined: 5 Sep 04 Posts: 189 Credit: 1,016,797 RAC: 0 |
Carsten: Our team RAC has 'only' dropped from 605k to 549k so far, and ONLY because most of us kept crunching the old 4.18 WUs for as long as we could get them - I still have a day's worth of 4.18 WUs on my notebook. Our RAC is currently in freefall, but there has not been enough time lapse yet to illustrate this dramatically in that chart. It will become dramatic over the next 2 weeks though! http://www.setiusa.net |
Hans Dorn Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 2262 Credit: 26,448,570 RAC: 0 |
Carsten: Since Seti.Germany has hardly been as "optimized" as Seti.USA, there will be a shift w.r.t RAC in the next weeks. Regards Hans P.S: I have no doubt that Seti.USA won't grow enough to catch us again, though :o) |
Steve @ SETI.USA Send message Joined: 5 Sep 04 Posts: 189 Credit: 1,016,797 RAC: 0 |
Since Seti.Germany has hardly been as "optimized" as Seti.USA, there will be a shift w.r.t RAC in the next weeks. Actually, Hans, I am seeing very similar and proportional RAC decreases for all 3 top producing teams - SETI.USA, BBR Starfire, and SETI.Germany. Here are the changes I have observed thus far... SETI.USA: approx. 605k -> 549k BBR Starfire: approx. 597k -> 512k SETI.Germany: approx. 520k -> 457k http://www.setiusa.net |
Crunch3r Send message Joined: 15 Apr 99 Posts: 1546 Credit: 3,438,823 RAC: 0 |
Carsten: Hello, if i'm getting this correct you can allready see the trend of what Steve referes to Anyhow i'm not a "statistical guy" corect me if i'm wrong. P.S. i realy do hate statistics :-( Join BOINC United now! |
Hans Dorn Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 2262 Credit: 26,448,570 RAC: 0 |
Since Seti.Germany has hardly been as "optimized" as Seti.USA, there will be a shift w.r.t RAC in the next weeks. Right. We're dropping even faster than you, oh well... Regards Hans |
zoom3+1=4 Send message Joined: 30 Nov 03 Posts: 66332 Credit: 55,293,173 RAC: 49 |
Here's the graph for the PC Perspective Killer Frogs and You can noticed the drop on the right. This is for Seti Only, Ned Slider is part of the PC Perspective Killer Frogs and one guy there liked being called a Credit Whore when I mentioned It. Me I didn't like It and yes I'm waiting as I have a right to change My mind and at the moment have all the 4.18 WU's been validated and given credit? Possibly not, So I'll wait. Savoir-Faire is everywhere! The T1 Trust, T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, America's First HST |
kevint Send message Joined: 17 May 99 Posts: 414 Credit: 11,680,240 RAC: 0 |
Carsten: I have seen my RAC drop from 30K to 25K as more and more of my machines start crunching the enhanced version. And YES they are all optimized both with 4.11 and enhanced. The drop in daily credits and work produced is across the board, fewer WU's are being crunched, less credit is being claimed/granted. From what I can see on my current machines there will be a 40% total reduction on the work performed. Two steps back, one step forward. If Berkeley/Seti wants to maintain the current amount of work performed they will have to rethink their position on credits granted per WU, otherwise there will be an exodus to other projects that crunchers have determined will grant them the credit due for work completed. I don't think this is what Berkeley had in mind, but I can already see it happening. RAC is going up across the board in other projects, this can only mean one thing, that crunchers are moving away from seti to other projects, and this will continue. |
Idefix Send message Joined: 7 Sep 99 Posts: 154 Credit: 482,193 RAC: 0 |
Hello all, *riesenseufzer* I give up ... It's useless ... Regards, Carsten |
Franz Bauer Send message Joined: 8 Feb 01 Posts: 127 Credit: 9,690,361 RAC: 0 |
Here are some statistics that I have pulled together from 3 different computers using different versions of the Seti app: Genuine Intel (R) Pentium(R) 4 650 CPU 3.40GHz running Microsoft Windows XP Professional Edition, Service Pack 2, (05.01.2600.00) 5.3.12.tx36 BOINC client and standard Seti V4.18 (average of 23 work units) CPU time = 2,072.61 sec., Claimed credit = 16.81 CS/hr., Granted credit = 23.30 CS/hr. 5.3.12.tx36 BOINC client and Crunch3r’s Seti SSE3 V4.11 (average of 97 work units) CPU time = 3,110.58 sec., Claimed credit = 34.90 CS/hr., Granted credit = 29.81 CS/hr. 5.3.12.tx36 BOINC client and Crunch3r’s Seti SSE3 V5.11 (average of 34 work units) CPU time = 12,654.50 sec., Claimed credit = 40.92 CS/hr., Granted credit = 15.71 CS/hr. 5.3.12.tx36 BOINC client and Crunch3r’s Seti SSE3 V5.12 (average of 31 work units) CPU time = 13,751.11 sec., Claimed credit = 14.38 CS/hr., Granted credit = 14.13 CS/hr. Authentic AMD AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3000+ running Linux 2.6.16-1.2108_FC4 5.3.12.tx36 BOINC client and Crunch3r’s Seti SSE3 V5.12 (average of 11 work units) CPU time = 9,033.28 sec., Claimed credit = 13.56 CS/hr., Granted credit = 13.93 CS/hr. Authentic AMD Athlon (tm) 64 Processor 3000+ running Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional Edition, Service Pack 4, (05.00.2195.00) 5.3.12.tx36 BOINC client and Crunch3r’s Seti SSE3 V5.11 (average of 26 work units) CPU time = 11,120.90 sec., Claimed credit = 53.18 CS/hr., Granted credit = 20.08 CS/hr. From the above results, the out and out winner for all of those accused of being credit whores and cheats is the 5.3.12.tx36 BOINC client and Crunch3r’s Seti SSE3 V5.11 combination. This should light up a big bonfire under the backsides of all the self-righteous folks here. For those using older BOINC clients such as 4.25, 4.43 and 4.45 here is an example of someone using the 4.45 BOINC client with the standard Seti 5.15 app: Genuine Intel (R) Pentium(R) M processor 1600MHz running Microsoft Windows XP Professional Edition, Service Pack 2, (05.01.2600.00) CPU time = 79,523.20 sec., Claimed credit = 8.81 CS/hr., Granted credit = 2.56 CS/hr. NOTE: This was right from WinterKnight’s second example (5.12 14,287s granted 56.46 = 14.23/hr wu id=78922770). So who’s the big bad credit whore and cheat now??? Fun aside; it would be nice if those of us that are running other projects could post their CS/hr here so that we may all compare the data. For the comparison, it would be best that TruXoft’s 5.3.12.tx36 BOINC client and computers as close to the ones mentioned above be used. Averages of 25 to 50 work units would great and more would be better. My RAC has dropped from 1980 to 1334. Franz |
Hans Dorn Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 2262 Credit: 26,448,570 RAC: 0 |
Hello all, Don't. The graph Crunch3r posted shows a drop by less than 10%. This means that the overall transition to enhanced worked reasonably well. The bigger drop for us "optimized" folks is a different affair. Regards Hans |
Steve @ SETI.USA Send message Joined: 5 Sep 04 Posts: 189 Credit: 1,016,797 RAC: 0 |
Hello all, In case you missed it, everyone's RAC is just beginning to rapidly drop. It will continue to drop dramatically for some time now. I would give up Carsten, because the data will not support your case. http://www.setiusa.net |
zoom3+1=4 Send message Joined: 30 Nov 03 Posts: 66332 Credit: 55,293,173 RAC: 49 |
My position is that the WU's size doesn't really matter as long as It's not too excessive(Largest is about 4hrs:50mins or so on Joker3, On Joker2 I have 3 files that are HUGE and are at 7:00, 7:18 and 7:23 respectively[hr/min]), All I know is under the previous system I never got the full claimed credit(which is fine), the Granted Credit varied, At times It would be around 8 credits and other times It would be near 24 or so, So It wasn't consistent. Under the New credit scheme You get what the majority files for or so I think(Quorum). If a WU takes 4 hours You get whatever the WU is supposed to be worth, If It has the same value as a shorter WU You are effectively getting less per hour. So as someone who has the optimized Crunch3r app(5.12 SSE3 from Crunch3r), the 5.3.12.Tx36 client from Trux on top of the 5.3.16 Boinc install, I don't see myself as a cheater, We shall see what the drop is for us all, Hopefully something will be done. Right now I'm restricting My internet access to seti, Telling It I have less bandwidth so that maybe I'll get smaller files(If I have to I'll set It to near dial-up speeds), Like smaller than 2.5 hours per WU or so. In any case I'll wait, But not forever. Savoir-Faire is everywhere! The T1 Trust, T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, America's First HST |
1mp0£173 Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 8423 Credit: 356,897 RAC: 0 |
When you are doing statistics, you need to be careful about the sample. In your graph, we have a team, and presumably the team members got everyone on to optimized apps. Your sample is "Members of TEAM OC UK" and is more likely to have had "optimized" apps. The graph below from BOINCstats.com shows project-wide. [img=http://www.boincstats.com/stats/project_graph3.php?pr=sah&table=credits] This suggests that in fact credits haven't changed a whole lot across the entire project. So, yeah, TEAM OC UK is seeing a big drop, but overall things look about the same. Your mileage may vary. |
Steve @ SETI.USA Send message Joined: 5 Sep 04 Posts: 189 Credit: 1,016,797 RAC: 0 |
Ned - that chart is for the entire SETI@Home project. http://www.teamocuk.com/cprojectcred.php?p=SAH http://www.setiusa.net |
Jim-R. Send message Joined: 7 Feb 06 Posts: 1494 Credit: 194,148 RAC: 0 |
My position is that the WU's size doesn't really matter as long as It's not too excessive(Largest is about 4hrs:50mins or so on Joker3, On Joker2 I have 3 files that are HUGE and are at 7:00, 7:18 and 7:23 respectively[hr/min]), All I know is under the previous system I never got the full claimed credit(which is fine), the Granted Credit varied, At times It would be around 8 credits and other times It would be near 24 or so, So It wasn't consistent. Under the New credit scheme You get what the majority files for or so I think(Quorum). If a WU takes 4 hours You get whatever the WU is supposed to be worth, If It has the same value as a shorter WU You are effectively getting less per hour. So as someone who has the optimized Crunch3r app(5.12 SSE3 from Crunch3r), the 5.3.12.Tx36 client from Trux on top of the 5.3.16 Boinc install, I don't see myself as a cheater, We shall see what the drop is for us all, Hopefully something will be done. Right now I'm restricting My internet access to seti, Telling It I have less bandwidth so that maybe I'll get smaller files(If I have to I'll set It to near dial-up speeds), Like smaller than 2.5 hours per WU or so. In any case I'll wait, But not forever. You can set your internet connection to whatever you want. It won't affect the "size" of the wu you get. All work units are roughly the ssame "size" as in filesize. The difference comes in when you look at the "angle range" of the work unit. Some angle ranges simply take longer to crunch than others. You can't tell the angle range by the file size as all wu's are the same size. When you are talking about setting your connection speed, it seems to me like you are asking to get physically smaller files but it doesn't work that way. Jim Some people plan their life out and look back at the wealth they've had. Others live life day by day and look back at the wealth of experiences and enjoyment they've had. |
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