I'm sure that none of us would mind paying taxes if we knew that it went to the right programs - instead of a large % of them finding their way into politician's pockets!

That's why people don't want to pay taxes! Why should we help support those who are already rich? Do you guys have any idea of the billions that went missing recently up here in Canada?! And nobody's in jail! But see what happens to you if you're caught stealing a loaf of bread from the corner store!

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Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.

@Robert. "Objectivists": is that based on Ayn Rand's ideas?

Yes, that's right. There are other professional philosophers doing new work within the scope of the framework now of course. The philosophic tradition is logically traceable back to Aristotle as compared to 'competing' schools which tend to originate with Plato.

I have frequently thought, and sometimes said, that in a really free society taxes would be voluntary.

If the roads in my neigborhood need repairing, the most motivated will get prices, distribute the information, collect legally binding pledges, organize fund drives, etc. A larger portion of the people would be involved, each would contribute according to their ability and desire and no one would feel their money was being stolen to pay for others' laziness.

Lots of details to be worked out in my brief example and I like the basic concept but I have no idea what school it should be part of.

I can address this and will be as brief as possible as I don't want to start a philosophy/politics/ethics discussion.

Stites, you're partially right. But 'voluntary taxation' doesn't mean what most people think it means at least within the Objectivist framework.

Take your example of road repairs in your neighborhood. There are many private neighborhood roadways in the US right now, and have been for decades. In my state these roadsigns are blue instead of the customary green. Even cops can't ticket you in there for driving violations. Of course, if you were to drive 90 mph you would surely be in trouble for reckless endangerment, etc. These private roads ARE repaired through the homeowner association or thru trusts established for such a purpose. In the case of what are now government roads Objectivists would advocate privatizing them entirely where the people using them would indirectly pay for their upkeep at a great savings. There's a massive TOME about this one subject of road privatization that made a big splash a few years ago but it costs about $60 and I haven't read it; I've only read the reviews.

As far as taxes being 'voluntary'. This doesn't mean that if you and your local 'chip in for the good of the county' group can't raise the funds for something then it ceases to exist. It relies, in many ways, on 'user pays' income revenues. As a matter of fact, long before there was an income tax in the US state governments had lotteries. I even advocate lotteries for SPECIFIC purposes. You can vote with your dollar that way. There currently exists all sorts of fees and obligations put upon people who exercise some form of government service. For example, marriage licenses, dog licenses (please no jokes here) building permits (always a mystery what purpose this serves), nail care licensing, whatever. If the inane activities of government were stripped away and the crucials were remained then ponder this. You want to enter into a million dollar contract with a vegetable supplier for your chain of grocery stores? Fine. If you want that contract lodged in the courthouse then a contract fee would be assessed so that you and the other party would have access to the binding decisions and processes of the courts in case of dispute.
You could sign that contract and if one party abused it and no contract was filed then pox on the offender's reputation. You have to pay to play.

However no citizen would ever be denied protection from the police, for instance, because they were indigent.

There's a whole ton of papers and philosophic arguments from many different philosophic and political schools regarding this. Typically it's known as the 'Free Rider Problem'. Objectivists don't consider it to be a problem as it is still in one's best interest to have the robber of a homeless man down the street arrested and dealt with accordingly.

Thanks for reading this. I would have made this a more abbreviated post but lacked the time to do so. :-)

EDIT-adding this note on anarchism.

ps No Objectivist is an anarchist. I regard that as a form of non government that will inevitably and logically lead to statism.

Although some radical libertarians advocate absolute anarchism.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

We should all just follow the dolphins.

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But haven't you guys read 'Demon Haunted World'?
If you put some supreme being starting off our Universe, doesn't that just put an extra term into the equation? It only begs the question "Alright, then...where did HE come from, and where was HIS beginning then?"

Any supreme being is probably going to care about you the same amount as you care for a single paramecium on a slide in a biology class. After you've done your diagram of any given paramecium, which as near as you can see, is like any other one, you rinse the slide in the sink, and go off to the pub with your buddies. If an intelligent paramecium believes in HUMANS and worships tham, what will it get him? Do we care? Wouldn't it be better for that paramecium to ignore us and instead work on understanding the universe?

If there were some supreme being (which seems very unlikely as there is NO evidence for one whatsoever; hell, there is more evidence for the existence of Santa Claus,) is he deserving of our worship, given the pain and suffering in the world?

If you mean that praying to God for your team to win their basketball game (or their war) is ridiculous and a waste of time, I have thought that since I was 15.

Gimme a G
Gimme an O
Gimme a D
What's that spell?

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The expansion of the universe is driven by a need to get away from it all ...

But haven't you guys read 'Demon Haunted World'?
If you put some supreme being starting off our Universe, doesn't that just put an extra term into the equation? It only begs the question "Alright, then...where did HE come from, and where was HIS beginning then?"

Any supreme being is probably going to care about you the same amount as you care for a single paramecium on a slide in a biology class. After you've done your diagram of any given paramecium, which as near as you can see, is like any other one, you rinse the slide in the sink, and go off to the pub with your buddies. If an intelligent paramecium believes in HUMANS and worships tham, what will it get him? Do we care? Wouldn't it be better for that paramecium to ignore us and instead work on understanding the universe?

If there were some supreme being (which seems very unlikely as there is NO evidence for one whatsoever; hell, there is more evidence for the existence of Santa Claus,) is he deserving of our worship, given the pain and suffering in the world?

If you mean that praying to God for your team to win their basketball game (or their war) is ridiculous and a waste of time, I have thought that since I was 15.

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David Stites
Pullman, WA USA

I have frequently thought, and sometimes said, that in a really free society taxes would be voluntary.

If the roads in my neigborhood need repairing, the most motivated will get prices, distribute the information, collect legally binding pledges, organize fund drives, etc. A larger portion of the people would be involved, each would contribute according to their ability and desire and no one would feel their money was being stolen to pay for others' laziness.

Lots of details to be worked out in my brief example and I like the basic concept but I have no idea what school it should be part of.

Sounds like a form of Anarchism to me.

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Reality Internet Personality

@Robert. "Objectivists": is that based on Ayn Rand's ideas?

Yes, that's right. There are other professional philosophers doing new work within the scope of the framework now of course. The philosophic tradition is logically traceable back to Aristotle as compared to 'competing' schools which tend to originate with Plato.

I have frequently thought, and sometimes said, that in a really free society taxes would be voluntary.

If the roads in my neigborhood need repairing, the most motivated will get prices, distribute the information, collect legally binding pledges, organize fund drives, etc. A larger portion of the people would be involved, each would contribute according to their ability and desire and no one would feel their money was being stolen to pay for others' laziness.

Lots of details to be worked out in my brief example and I like the basic concept but I have no idea what school it should be part of.

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David Stites
Pullman, WA USA

But haven't you guys read 'Demon Haunted World'?
If you put some supreme being starting off our Universe, doesn't that just put an extra term into the equation? It only begs the question "Alright, then...where did HE come from, and where was HIS beginning then?"

Any supreme being is probably going to care about you the same amount as you care for a single paramecium on a slide in a biology class. After you've done your diagram of any given paramecium, which as near as you can see, is like any other one, you rinse the slide in the sink, and go off to the pub with your buddies. If an intelligent paramecium believes in HUMANS and worships tham, what will it get him? Do we care? Wouldn't it be better for that paramecium to ignore us and instead work on understanding the universe?

If there were some supreme being (which seems very unlikely as there is NO evidence for one whatsoever; hell, there is more evidence for the existence of Santa Claus,) is he deserving of our worship, given the pain and suffering in the world?

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Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.

http://www.americanatheist.org/win98-99/T2/silverman.html

He has said many things I haven't found the words to say.

How many people that read this thread are actual Athiests?

I am an actual agnostic. I haven't seen all the evidence yet, not enough to form a Theory. My hypothesis is that there is no god. But after I die I may gain new evidence, if so I will revize.

At the age of 16 or so I decided it really didn't matter as I was going to live my life my way and accept whatever comes. That I haven't changed.


@Robert. "Objectivists": is that based on Ayn Rand's ideas?

Yes, that's right. There are other professional philosophers doing new work within the scope of the framework now of course. The philosophic tradition is logically traceable back to Aristotle as compared to 'competing' schools which tend to originate with Plato.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

http://www.americanatheist.org/win98-99/T2/silverman.html

He has said many things I haven't found the words to say.

How many people that read this thread are actual Athiests?

I am an actual agnostic. I haven't seen all the evidence yet, not enough to form a Theory. My hypothesis is that there is no god. But after I die I may gain new evidence, if so I will revize.

At the age of 16 or so I decided it really didn't matter as I was going to live my life my way and accept whatever comes. That I haven't changed.


@Robert. "Objectivists": is that based on Ayn Rand's ideas?

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David Stites
Pullman, WA USA

http://www.americanatheist.org/win98-99/T2/silverman.html

He has said many things I haven't found the words to say.

How many people that read this thread are actual Athiests?

I'm an Athiest ... Swear to God!

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The expansion of the universe is driven by a need to get away from it all ...

Nah...when I drink, I get really ornery.

"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes."
Douglas Adams
Thanks Chuk.

With sufficient phenolphthalein in the drinks not to be detectable by taste, but with sufficent power to work on him!

I haven't used that since college chemistry classes, LOL. However, my preference would be Oil of Croton...truely organic with faster and more
violent results from both the distal and proximal.

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Account frozen...

LOL, Dogbytes. I just can't feel the same way about him as some of you guys can. :-(

Come on, you know if everyone were hanging out in a bar we would want to watch Chuck drink down a few....hehe.

With sufficient phenolphthalein in the drinks not to be detectable by taste, but with sufficent power to work on him!

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It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues

LOL, Dogbytes. I just can't feel the same way about him as some of you guys can. :-(

Come on, you know if everyone were hanging out in a bar we would want to watch Chuck drink down a few....hehe.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

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Account frozen...

Interesting. Mirrors some of my own life experiences. Never read his books though. Will have to do that as they have been recommended to me for years...

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

http://www.americanatheist.org/win98-99/T2/silverman.html

He has said many things I haven't found the words to say.

How many people that read this thread are actual Athiests?