Lee, I have no clue where Alec is going with this... but if you get a hang of this SQL (Server) thing... I get first dibs! :P

that's fine by me ;)
it's just for personal gain at present, but if i get a job out of it then i won't be complaining

thanks for the info everyone, especially about which access methods are faster, might as well do it properly from the start :)

i'm sure you'll be hearing from me again when i run into trouble lol just gotta get that G1 working now, anyone got some spare 128 DIMMs they wanna send me? lol

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Check it out:

NOW, You can also get the development system for ASP.NET as well, FREE, too:

Visual Studio.NET 2005, FREE:

http://www.learn2asp.net/Campaign.aspx

In addition to that, you may also now get the backend DB engine for free here as I mentioned below/earlier:

SQLServer 2005 Express Edition = FREE

http://msdn.microsoft.com/sql/express/

:)

* A "1-2 punch" I've been using the past 1/2 year or so now, & like it very much... faster than ASP code, & if you come from a VB type development environs?

IMO, it's SIMPLE to get used to + use really!

(Just a few more "moving parts", vs. say, VB6, to get used to using is all in your ASP.NET forms you design... plus a few more added datastructures to pass around in functions/subroutines/classes you use is all, like HttpResponse, HttpRequest, Sessions, etc./et all)...

APK

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http://torry.net/authorsmore.php?id=1781

"The object's hull is made of SOLID neutronium: A single StarShip cannot combat it!" quote Mr. Spock, Star Trek original series, episode title: "The Doomsday Machine"

All of my reply could have also been phrased: I agree.

Green Beer Day!

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Overclock with the MSI G31M3-L and Intel E8600 3.33Ghz
Intel D865GLC Socket 478 Motherboard
~How To Overclock The Eee ASUS 1005HA Netbook To 1.9Ghz~

Alec, moving routine DB connection operations to a single public function saves a lot of debugging time as well. Instead of tracing a connectivity problem across multiple forms, you can quickly determine the problem in one function.

That's what I said, isn't it?

It's HOW I have been designing applications since the early 1990's in fact...

(For ANY function I build that has repeated use in code as INLINED code in other subroutines/procedures where I see that pattern emerging)

To wit (quoting 2 statements in that regard from myself earlier):

I.E. -> 1 point of actual "engine", reused thruout areas where the same basic function is performed in code, but with diff. parameters in those areas...

&

In fact, I have used this method of design (I usually start out inlined code, & then reduce it to functions I reuse again & again if I start noting a pattern of it, for that very reason & what I state below) in most applications I have built over time, for ease of maintenance & just for good "design/architecture"...

:)

* Take a read below. Perhaps you misunderstood me, or just skimmed past those 2 statements of mine I just quoted above.

APK

P.S.=> It happens - it's A.M. here, & if it is morning there too, I can see skimming & such happening - our brains are still "rebooting"!

LOL, either that (and this is just a joke, not taking a poke @ you directly) OR, you have been starting your St. Patrick's Day celebrating early?? LOL...

And, that said?? Happy St. Patrick's Day everyone... apk

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http://torry.net/authorsmore.php?id=1781

"The object's hull is made of SOLID neutronium: A single StarShip cannot combat it!" quote Mr. Spock, Star Trek original series, episode title: "The Doomsday Machine"

Lee, I have no clue where Alec is going with this... but if you get a hang of this SQL (Server) thing... I get first dibs! :P

Seriously:
Alec, moving routine DB connection operations to a single public function saves a lot of debugging time as well. Instead of tracing a connectivity problem across multiple forms, you can quickly determine the problem in one function.

Our firm has discovered that reporting errors to a DB table with: date+time, station name, user name and any avaialable variable values; saves a lot of time. This to can be handled by a global function. A worst case failover is also programmed in, text file error reporting if the DB cannot connect.

I find being concerned with program size vs adding "flair" to the program... the "flair" always wins. With today's focus on MHZ, programming could never be easier.

---

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Intel D865GLC Socket 478 Motherboard
~How To Overclock The Eee ASUS 1005HA Netbook To 1.9Ghz~

(LOL, I am trying to drag it back on-topic, noting the SINGULARITY OS that Microsoft Research is working on due to conversations I had with Rom Walton, but it's still running off the tracks... as most interesting topics do!)

well yes it's gone off vista specifically, but a question like "is vista better?" isn't a simple one, and obviously leads to other discussions

for a thread like that, personally it's fine, because those who want to discuss vista, usually want to discuss other related things, rather than looking for a quick simple answer

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and doing everything manually, you have to duplicate a lot of stuff

Agreed, & I have heard that before from web-folks... it lessens your workload, & ALSO, by limiting points of maintenance too, by reducing repeated "inlined" (same lines of code reused in functions everywhere instead of using a single instance of said code in a function call publicly accessible by others functions or subroutines) code, which also makes your app bulkier, & in many instances? LARGER...

Yes, that's right - When apps get compiled with inlined code, they are bigger in the .exe file (in VB.NET and VB6 @ least, I never really paid attention before in other languages when I built exe's in them but it is probably true as well).

In fact, I have used this method of design (I usually start out inlined code, & then reduce it to functions I reuse again & again if I start noting a pattern of it, for that very reason & what I state below) in most applications I have built over time, for ease of maintenance & just for good "design/architecture"...

It is JUST (well, almost) like how using object oriented class functions &/or module function calls can reduce the points of failure potentially in applications, and certainly for easier maintainability...

I.E. -> 1 point of actual "engine", reused thruout areas where the same basic function is performed in code, but with diff. parameters in those areas...

I think I said this before here: "The more things change, the more they stay the same"... or, rather I said it in our dicussion in the "infamous VISTA thread" lol, which is STILL kicking!

(LOL, I am trying to drag it back on-topic, noting the SINGULARITY OS that Microsoft Research is working on due to conversations I had with Rom Walton, but it's still running off the tracks... as most interesting topics do!)

:)

APK

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http://torry.net/authorsmore.php?id=1781

"The object's hull is made of SOLID neutronium: A single StarShip cannot combat it!" quote Mr. Spock, Star Trek original series, episode title: "The Doomsday Machine"

NO problem man, for whatever I put in that may help you... one day, you may end up paying me back in kind (on the web-development front, I am NOT as strong as you are there admittedly imo @ least - it's your "forte", & with this? You're going to WAY improve yourself with it...)

yup, everyone's input was helpful, i didn't actually know there was a free version of MS SQL server, but everyone else had helpful input too

as for the web side of things, then yes, i do pride myself on having learnt the basics properly, and working from the ground up
i see so many "fancy" sites, which just neglect the very basic stuff, which is just backwards to me, and is like learning to fly before you can walk lol
basics first

Heh, I just hope you don't end up hating us for turning you onto what can be a truly really headache based nightmare @ times, but massively rewarding too, when you create something really nice, albeit via struggling thru it!

not at all, i know it's a complicated area that i'll have to get my head round with lots of reading, but DBs are just so handy, especially for doing fancy web stuff, styling is easy to change if using CSS properly, but content/layout/structure is another thing
and doing everything manually, you have to duplicate a lot of stuff
like if you have a news section, you have an HTML version with styling, an RSS version with styling, and probably an Atom version with styling lol
with a database you just have 1 version of content, and "insert" it into the various formats, much easier to manage

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thanks everyone for the comments

my deciding factors are going to be system requirements, and download size lol

MySQL is small, and can run on nothing (apparently), so i think i'll give that a go first, and try the others later

NO problem man, for whatever I put in that may help you... one day, you may end up paying me back in kind (on the web-development front, I am NOT as strong as you are there admittedly imo @ least - it's your "forte", & with this? You're going to WAY improve yourself with it...)

:)

* Heh, I just hope you don't end up hating us for turning you onto what can be a truly really headache based nightmare @ times, but massively rewarding too, when you create something really nice, albeit via struggling thru it!

APK

P.S.=> Doesn't matter which backend DB you use really, just learn that SQL... it'll make you functional to a HIGH degree, on any of the server-class database engines we mention below... apk

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http://torry.net/authorsmore.php?id=1781

"The object's hull is made of SOLID neutronium: A single StarShip cannot combat it!" quote Mr. Spock, Star Trek original series, episode title: "The Doomsday Machine"

thanks everyone for the comments

my deciding factors are going to be system requirements, and download size lol

MySQL is small, and can run on nothing (apparently), so i think i'll give that a go first, and try the others later

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Hi again, Lee
Yes, the "middleware" doesn't just exist for php either. You can get it for c, perl, python, java, or just about any programming language you want to use. Since I'm only familiar with pgsql and mysql I can't tell you what different interfaces exist for all the others, but I'm sure at least most of them support the above languages, and possibly others.

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Jim

Some people plan their life out and look back at the wealth they've had.
Others live life day by day and look back at the wealth of experiences and enjoyment they've had.

SQLServer 2005 Express Edition = FREE

http://msdn.microsoft.com/sql/express/

:)

* And, I'm going to state something that the Linux folks here may not like: If you stick by Microsoft, you assure yourself a place in the working world out there, like it or not...
apk

Go Alec!

I am troubled somewhat about your post though... no mention of ANTS at all? :P

LOL, no, sorry... I don't know what the costs of it are is mainly why I avoided mentioning it, & we already know it's not free.

:)

APK

---

http://torry.net/authorsmore.php?id=1781

"The object's hull is made of SOLID neutronium: A single StarShip cannot combat it!" quote Mr. Spock, Star Trek original series, episode title: "The Doomsday Machine"

SQLServer 2005 Express Edition = FREE

http://msdn.microsoft.com/sql/express/

:)

* And, I'm going to state something that the Linux folks here may not like: If you stick by Microsoft, you assure yourself a place in the working world out there, like it or not...
apk

Go Alec!

I am troubled somewhat about your post though... no mention of ANTS at all? :P

---

Overclock with the MSI G31M3-L and Intel E8600 3.33Ghz
Intel D865GLC Socket 478 Motherboard
~How To Overclock The Eee ASUS 1005HA Netbook To 1.9Ghz~

thanks for the info alec

but maybe i should word my question differently:
which would be the "best"/easiest to learn with

Heh, Jim gave the advice (on that account) I was going to dispense: Learn SQL, period... it's pretty easy, until (imo @ least) you have to do joins, they are probably one of the tougher things to understand... unions possibly too.

The most used statement is the SELECT statement, hands-down. It's how you query the system for data for answering questions.

INSERT & UPDATE you will use to write & update records in tables.

DELETE fries records from tables.

Those will be the ones you MOST LIKELY use the most, learn them.

i think i'll start with something easy, make a few dummy tables and then do the real stuff with something better once i've got the basics sorted

That's the way to do it, you learn to walk, & then run.

Just to point out something, if you pick any of the "sql" databases, you will learn the basic sql statements you will need for any system. There are minor differences in syntax when you get into complicated queries and stuff but the basic syntax is there.

Yup, Jim's "dead-on" there, & I stated it in the other thread we spoke about this in (the "infamous VISTA thread" lol) & others here as well - learn SQL! It's your pal in ALL of them, but some things vary (such as security statements for example - the sp_ stuff in SQLServer doesn't exist afaik, in Oracle SQL for example).

Also if you will be using php for a web style interface the syntax there will be similar also. Php uses calls to a "client back end" which then converts the actual code into calls to the server. So when you learn the sql language then how to write an interface in php the only difference you would see is in the actual calls to the client interface used by the particular database you use.

The "client-back-end" is typically called a "middleware" & is called OO40 (last time I used it @ least) for Oracle, & ADO/ADO.NET for SQLServer, as two examples. You can use ADO for BOTH Oracle & SQLServer, but OO40 (the last iteration I used on Oracle) was faster for writes (very ODBC syntax-like imo) than ADO was, but ADO was faster for reads.

In the project I utilized it on? We actually used BOTH (OO40 for writes (INSERT/UPDATE/DELETE) & ADO for reads (SELECTS)) to get the BEST/utmost out of the app performance-wise to Oracle!

Anyhow - that 'middleware' communications layer allows you to make connections strings, or other forms of connections in the Windows-World @ least, to the DB engine to either:

1.) Execute "inlined" SQL statements in your ASP type web pages directly to the server (causes more network traffic than using #2 method below though, keep this in mind) from your webpage or application!

(The latter (using it in apps, not webpages) I am FAR more familiar with than the web-side, other than ASPX type .NET generated pages, which I am pretty much @ home with now, ASP only as an afterthought because of legacy stuff I am converting over or am forced to work with because of an older model of Crystal Reports (8.5) that can be fired via ASP & JavaScript, & runs in your browser!)

OR

2.) Using Stored Procedures - this you send a single call to the backend server, a function call basically, with a query string that passes parameters ONLY (not entire SQL statements inlined in your application or webpage) to prebuilt SQL statements stored on the server waiting for parameters from your programs/webpages, & it is faster with less traffic on your LAN/WAN as well.

* Learn BOTH ways & like Jim said? Learn SQL, it's pretty simple for the MOST part!

APK

P.S.=> Also, learn about INDEXING properly (putting an index on fields you typically based queries on, speeds up stuff MASSIVELY & avoids "table scans" which take many orders of magnitude longer to do than indexed field querying)...

OH, also keep in mind that VIEWS are better than table driven apps as well for security imo, only "show what you have to" & also remember that STORED PROCEDURE USE (I mention it above as method #2) is faster & less prone to network congestion than inlined SQL in your apps is... apk

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http://torry.net/authorsmore.php?id=1781

"The object's hull is made of SOLID neutronium: A single StarShip cannot combat it!" quote Mr. Spock, Star Trek original series, episode title: "The Doomsday Machine"

thanks for the info alec

but maybe i should word my question differently:
which would be the "best"/easiest to learn with

i think i'll start with something easy, make a few dummy tables and then do the real stuff with something better once i've got the basics sorted

Just to point out something, if you pick any of the "sql" databases, you will learn the basic sql statements you will need for any system. There are minor differences in syntax when you get into complicated queries and stuff but the basic syntax is there.
Also if you will be using php for a web style interface the syntax there will be similar also. Php uses calls to a "client back end" which then converts the actual code into calls to the server. So when you learn the sql language then how to write an interface in php the only difference you would see is in the actual calls to the client interface used by the particular database you use.

---

Jim

Some people plan their life out and look back at the wealth they've had.
Others live life day by day and look back at the wealth of experiences and enjoyment they've had.

thanks for the info alec

but maybe i should word my question differently:
which would be the "best"/easiest to learn with

i think i'll start with something easy, make a few dummy tables and then do the real stuff with something better once i've got the basics sorted

---

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SQLServer 2005 Express Edition = FREE

http://msdn.microsoft.com/sql/express/

:)

* And, I'm going to state something that the Linux folks here may not like: If you stick by Microsoft, you assure yourself a place in the working world out there, like it or not...

(Mainly because they're everywhere in the greatest numbers/surface area, all the way from desktops/laptops, thru midranges departmental servers, up to enterprise class backend servers... & you can't avoid them typically in business environs (where you get employ typically)).

Economics & survival, a powerful incentive - arm yourself for it.

Ms' stuff is just the most widely used, & best priced for function imo (e.g.-> Pricing for Oracle &/or IBM DB/2 is far more expensive, especially for UNIX or zOS/OS400 rigs), so you can't really go wrong if you're looking to first startup in learning something that will make you a living, enjoying what it is you do for that living (which makes ALL the diff. imo).

Barring the absolute freebies like MySQL for instance. If you have a site that isn't out to "scale to a billion users hitting it @ once" etc., you can't beat zero-dollar costs... I haven't used it, but you don't hear MySQL classed up w/ the "Big 3" in Oracle, IBM DB/2, or Microsoft SQLServer 2005...

I suppose, it ALL really depends on YOUR personal goals really.

SQLServer 2005, when paired with ASP.NET or VB.NET thin-client webpage db driven site development?

Well, you have easy tools (and, by comparison to previous RAD development tools &/or API's, even Win32) in .NET via Visual Studio 2005 to build with that talk not ONLY to SQLServer, but other DB engines as well, easily with fast development cycles for MANY diff. kinds of apps, not just web ones.

That's another "something to consider": Being able to build for many diff. types of scenarios, not just web stuff, if you need that.

APK

P.S.=> Your choice in Oracle isn't a bad one either, but imo & experience, it's tougher to learn BUT, you ready yourself for UNIX/Linux as well using it, since it runs on those platforms natively as well as Win32 ones... apk

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http://torry.net/authorsmore.php?id=1781

"The object's hull is made of SOLID neutronium: A single StarShip cannot combat it!" quote Mr. Spock, Star Trek original series, episode title: "The Doomsday Machine"

I've been doing some reading, and poking about

i discovered that Oracle appears to be free, and considering i've heard it's a better database than MySQL (more scalable) would i be better off starting with that rather than strating with MySQL and trying to migrate to Oracle later on

any advice on which is "better" ?

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Lee,
Just reread the post I made about the version checking. I had said that if I upgraded one I needed to upgrade the "others", That should have read that whatever it was that I was upgrading had to have "one" other to be upgraded but I found the set that upgraded them all. I really don't remember which because it was back last fall and I didn't keep notes. Now I wish I had!

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Jim

Some people plan their life out and look back at the wealth they've had.
Others live life day by day and look back at the wealth of experiences and enjoyment they've had.

...you might want to check on the version dependencies before you actually decide on which version you get.

well if there are going to be dependancy and compatibility issues i think i'll just go got 5
i've got php 5.1.2 installed on my web server anyway
i'll just go for 5 then, seems it'll be easier in the long run

thanks everyone for the help :)
i'll post back if i have any other newbie questions ;)

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