Why classic SETI@home is closing down and other facts of life.
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Why classic SETI@home is closing down and other facts of life.
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 Angus Send message Joined: 26 May 99 Posts: 459 Credit: 91,013 RAC: 0 
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I think you missed his point completely. Just start now... it's better than nothing... and most of the post-Classic results are still in the accounts. They will want to go one step further and ask for Eistein/CPDN/Folding/etc/etc credits to be counted and converted to Classic units. Again - more noise about stuff that has no relevance to SETI. 
ID: 218677 ·  |
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Ingleside Send message Joined: 4 Feb 03 Posts: 1546 Credit: 15,832,022 RAC: 13 
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Why not let the Classic users that have been discriminated against (because they didn't get notified about BOINC until the end and are now two years in arrears in credit) continue to count WUs if they want? Is one more column in a table somewhere going to make that much difference? Not even noticable. Well, for one thing, then Seti_Enhanced "soon" is released, expect 15x difference in cpu-times for different wu, meaning "1 wu = 1 credit" doesn't make much sence. Or, are you maybe going to start saying "fast wu = 1 credit", "slow wu = 15 credits"? But, hang on, this is exactly that BOINC is currently doing, if a fast result takes 2h to crunch and gives 20 Cobblestones, another result that on the same computer takes 30h will be worth 300 Cobblestones... As for another reason against to use a wu-count, since old "done" wu is purged from database, some SETI@Home/BOINC-users will lose 17+ months of "wu-credit". Do you think it's more fair the users that has kept crunching "classic" till now should get an advantage over the SETI@Home/BOINC-users? For anyone not remembering the news, a snippet from this: October 6, 2003 Plans for our transition to BOINC are here. What will happen to my workunit totals? This means, any comments asking for a wu-count is by now over 2 years too late... As for not being notified about BOINC... Well, you had the news already mentioned from 06.10.2003, add to this: June 22, 2004 And, not to forget:  August 25, 2002  Read about our exciting new future projects. The current SETI@home search will wind down over the next year or so. However, we are working on new projects that will continue to use the computer power of millions of volunteers to further SETI and other scientific research. Our plans include the following: So, the problem isn't that "classic"-users wasn't notified about the switching to BOINC, it's rather some users haven't even visited the homepage the last 3 years. Someone that isn't atleast ocassionally looking on the homepage likely wouldn't read an email either, so wouldn't detect the shutdown anyway before the gui started popping-up the warning-message... Since it was announced over 9 months before SETI@Home/BOINC started, and repeated when SETI@Home/BOINC started, that everyone would start at zero under BOINC, the "classic"-users can't really claim they've been discriminated when they was choosing to continue running "classic" till shutdown. ID: 218725 · |
Geek@Play  Send message Joined: 31 Jul 01 Posts: 2467 Credit: 86,146,931 RAC: 0 
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Ingleside Well Said!! Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....Boinc.... ID: 218734 · |
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Angus Send message Joined: 26 May 99 Posts: 459 Credit: 91,013 RAC: 0
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Why not let the Classic users that have been discriminated against (because they didn't get notified about BOINC until the end and are now two years in arrears in credit) continue to count WUs if they want? Is one more column in a table somewhere going to make that much difference? Not even noticable. Nope - I said that that should be a new project - SETI-2 - with new stats. So don't put words in my mouth. But, hang on, this is exactly that BOINC is currently doing, if a fast result takes 2h to crunch and gives 20 Cobblestones, another result that on the same computer takes 30h will be worth 300 Cobblestones... Well, I guess they have their BOINC credits to keep them warm at night... For anyone not remembering the news, a snippet from this: All this is assuming ( a BAD thing) that most folks actually visited the SETI home page regularly. That's probably not very accurate. I know when I was crunching Classic, I NEVER visited the home page. I either had saved links to the stats page, or mainly used the team's 3rd party stats. Anything else was just fluff.
ID: 218739 · |
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cjsoftuk Send message Joined: 3 Sep 04 Posts: 248 Credit: 183,721 RAC: 0 
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I wish people would realise that BOINC is BOINC and it's here to stay. It is really easy to set up as long as people can be slightly more inclined to have a bigger download that does much more. I see no reason for the classic people not to be warned, because when I started crunching Classic last year I saw the notice about BOINC and started to investigate and then, in early January i switched after less than 1 month on classic I switched to BOINC and I saw the development work that goes in. I realised how good this could be, if only people could make it so. Classic people -> Please stop moaning. Moaning ablut credits is wrong because the new system is downright fairer than the old one. How can a WU that took 2 hours to process be the same as 5 minute WU. If anything was actually true, the old system was unfair. The new system works and shows how much work the participant has done in terms of CPU time. Ingleside -> Well done on keeping this under control. Everyone -> Just stop fighting one another for one week. It's nearly Xmas so be kind. Chris The views above are not shared by all participants and as a result please not attack my comments. They are my feelings and so they represent me alone, not multiple people, nor the BOINC Community. Do not in any way take these as demands as to how people behave or speak. 
ID: 218748 · |
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koldphuzhun Send message Joined: 19 Feb 01 Posts: 69 Credit: 288,938 RAC: 0
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Ok, they wanted war, so let it be war. All you credit counters out there, answer this. What is S@H? Why was it started? Why did it keep going? Why did they change from Classic to BOINC? I'll give you my answers. SETI@Home: Search for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence @Home Where does it say anything about "Credit counting@home" or "Credit cheaters@home" or "Credit rewards@home"? I don't see it, so maybe you can point it out to me. Started: SETI@home started as a project to show the world that network computing was possible using a test project of searching for life signs. It was not started to make a project for people to count credits and make really big numbers. In fact, I would dare say that the credit system was an afterthought and took some time to implement. So, you're lucky you're getting a credit count at all! Still going: SETI@home is still going because of the continual advantages of networked computing. As technology grows and changes, so do the experiments that feed it. BOINC is an EXPERIMENT. It will feed the growing technology. Which answers the last question. Classic's technology PEAKED! It could go no further and therefore ran out of funding. If you want funding, find a new peak. BOINC. So it comes down to this. All you credit counters out there that continually whine and gripe about things that are MEANINGLESS. I for one could care less if my credits disappeared, as would most people who watch this forum. (Except for the occasional and repetitive posters here, and I won't mention names because it's completely obvious who you are.) SETI@Home is just like a college research paper. It's like an Eagle Scout's project. It is the dream of a group of people who wanted to prove something. The only way they could do it was to allow the masses to participate. And guess what. They are willing to give you credit for your participation! They don't need to, but they are. I've yet to see an Eagle Scout give credit to everyone that helped them on their plaque. And even though they were willing to give credit, some people took advantage of that and cheated! Now are you a cheater, maybe so, maybe not. I can't say. But if you want to take the fire from these overworked people trying to keep up with their project, then shame on you. That's THIEVERY. People are punished constantly for plaigerism. You trying to grab all (or any of) the credit you can from this project makes you a THIEF, a low down dirty thief that steals from those who deserve it just to satisfy the appetites and desires that burn within. Those of us who aren't complaining about this understand this. We are perfectly happy donating our time silently in the background so that this and many other projects can move forward. We are perfectly happy getting what light the creators are willing to shine on us to make their project better. And to demand that they satisfy you is like telling an Eagle Scout "Nice park. But you should bring in more toys for the kids, a path for walkers and how about a couple of parking lots and ponds so people (me) can enjoy themselves more?" The creators could shut this project down right now if they wanted to. END EVERYTHING! But they don't. They don't need to keep it running, but they do. They don't need to give you an ounce of credit for their design and dream, but they do. So yes, it is about the people at Berkeley. It is about the wants of a few. It is about them and it needs to STAY about them, because without them, there would be no this. There would be no BOINC, a project that is uniting hundreds of thousands in a way never done before. So if you want to continue stealing their limelight, GO AWAY! NOW! DELETE BOINC AND LEAVE! We don't like thieves and their ways so good riddance. ID: 218768 · |
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Ingleside Send message Joined: 4 Feb 03 Posts: 1546 Credit: 15,832,022 RAC: 13
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Nope - I said that that should be a new project - SETI-2 - with new stats. So don't put words in my mouth. Please read the Transition Plan: This lets us upgrade and extend SETI@home without requiring you to download and install new software. It will make it easy for us to integrate new algorithms, such as analyzing our 8 bit/sample reobservation data, or looking for other types of radio signals such as short pulses from evaporating black holes. Seti_Enhanced is just one of these new algorithms, and since crediting is the same across the different applications they don't need to zero credit for each new algorithm. All this is assuming ( a BAD thing) that most folks actually visited the SETI home page regularly. That's probably not very accurate. Actually, as already mentioned, my assumption is that anyone that haven't checked the homepage if anything important has happened the last 3 years, like maybe a new faster client or bug-fixes has been released if nothing else, likely wouldn't read an email-message either. Not to forget, many email-addresses isn't working any longer. Meaning, the only way to get a message across to these users was to start popping-up the warning-message... But, atleast some users has claimed that this popup-message in the gui halts crunching, meaning it would have been a bad idea to send a popup back in 2004 when SETI@Home/BOINC started. As for anyone using a cli, wouldn't normally have seen the message anyway... Yes, there's likely millions of users that have never visited the home-page after downloading the seti-client. But, seeing neither email-message nor client-message is a reliable way to get info out to the users, that better method than using the home-page is there, and is there any point for users to start complaining about lack of news when they themselves has choosen to not read the news? Anyway, the bottom line is, you are over 2 years too late trying to change the SETI@Home/BOINC credit-system. ID: 218777 · |
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Angus Send message Joined: 26 May 99 Posts: 459 Credit: 91,013 RAC: 0
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That's THIEVERY. People are punished constantly for plaigerism. You trying to grab all (or any of) the credit you can from this project makes you a THIEF, a low down dirty thief that steals from those who deserve it just to satisfy the appetites and desires that burn within. This is so over the top... I don't know WHAT you think is being stolen, or plagarized.... So because some of us are unhappy with the 2 year overlap of SETI-Classic and SETI-BOINC which has made a shambles of any credits that people have been earning since 1999, we should all DELETE BOINC and not run ANY projects? That's an intelligent suggestion... You must have missed the part about credit systems being the fuel that drives Distributed Computing projects. Projects that screw up stats or don't provide good and accurate credit systems tend to lose a LOT of participation - very quickly. The other BOINC projects have clean stats, because they are *only* BOINC projects, and didn't have to migrate. (except CPDN, and who knows how THAT one works... ?) If SETI had turned off Classic and turned on the BOINC version, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But becasue the two systems of crunching the same WUs were allowed to co-exist for so long, NOW there is a stats problem, and an associated PR problem, which SETI refuses to address in a reasonable manner to suit all players. We get "CAN'T" do anything when really it's we "WON'T" do anything.
ID: 218784 · |
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Geek@Play Send message Joined: 31 Jul 01 Posts: 2467 Credit: 86,146,931 RAC: 0
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If SETI had turned off Classic and turned on the BOINC version, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But becasue the two systems of crunching the same WUs were allowed to co-exist for so long, NOW there is a stats problem, and an associated PR problem, which SETI refuses to address in a reasonable manner to suit all players. We get "CAN'T" do anything when really it's we "WON'T" do anything. They, the developers, have replied. The reply is "The scores will not be combined." This was the answer two years ago and is still the answer. If you can't accept that answer that is your problem. "I didn't know" will NOT win your case in any court on this planet. GET OVER IT! Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....Boinc.... ID: 218792 · |
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koldphuzhun Send message Joined: 19 Feb 01 Posts: 69 Credit: 288,938 RAC: 0
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I don't know WHAT you think is being stolen, or plagarized.... Isn't it obvious? You want more credit than what is honestly deserved. You want the creators to keep such a meticulous record of the things your computer did that if they met your demands, there would be no BOINC because they would be employing all available resources to track your pleasures. This steals from THEIR project and is therefore THIEVERY. And plagarism was just an example, not an accusation. So because some of us are unhappy with the 2 year overlap of SETI-Classic and SETI-BOINC which has made a shambles of any credits that people have been earning since 1999, we should all DELETE BOINC and not run ANY projects? That's an intelligent suggestion... SHOW me where your credits are messed up. SHOW me where Classic failed to track your credits the way it was programmed to. SHOW me where BOINC failed to track your credits the way it was programmed to. SHOW me where the cross between the two dropped any/all of your credits and left you in the dirt. They could dump Classic credits just as easily as they dumped the classic program. But instead they have gone to great lengths to not only preserve, but make available your nearly worthless numbers. I mean that's all they are, numbers. It's not like my bank where I can turn those numbers in for a trip to somewhere. And these efforts of trying to preserve old statistics is taking from their focus on their current project and thereby stealing time. Thief. And yes, if you're only in it for numbers, drop the program. Your complaints hinder more than help and therefore you are retarding the program's progress. You must have missed the part about credit systems being the fuel that drives Distributed Computing projects. Projects that screw up stats or don't provide good and accurate credit systems tend to lose a LOT of participation - very quickly. Again, all I have to say is thieves. People who are willing to honestly help are also willing to go without recognition as long as the job gets done. And if you think you can write a better credit tracker system, give the creators a break and WRITE ONE! It's all open-source so you don't have any excuses. The other BOINC projects have clean stats, because they are *only* BOINC projects, and didn't have to migrate. (except CPDN, and who knows how THAT one works... ?) When will you and others understand that all these projects are watching SETI@Home because it is the pilot program? They are not having these problems because they (a) cap enrollment, (b) implement only code that works and (c) use only proven integrations and hardware patterns? That's why SETI is the one with the problems. It's also the one with the solutions. And if you don't like the problems, drop SETI and give them one less burden on their systems so they have more to work with. Apparently the other projects could use you more anyways so they can have problems too. If SETI had turned off Classic and turned on the BOINC version, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But becasue the two systems of crunching the same WUs were allowed to co-exist for so long, NOW there is a stats problem, and an associated PR problem, which SETI refuses to address in a reasonable manner to suit all players. We get "CAN'T" do anything when really it's we "WON'T" do anything. Ok. You maintain several old machines, review and revise programs not only for the user end, but also the server end of things with 2 people (that's all they have that can do that), keep the people funding you happy, AND do all that with 100% uptime, all the while keeping the masses constantly notified and happy with what they're hearing, then you can officially have all authority necessary to command the people at Berkeley around. Until then, shut your mouth and let them do their jobs! ID: 218798 · |
Mr.Pernod  Send message Joined: 8 Feb 04 Posts: 350 Credit: 1,015,988 RAC: 0 
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what a waste of bandwidth and storagespace this thread has become.... thread title: "....and other facts of life" scroll to original post and read point 7. ID: 218800 · |
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koldphuzhun Send message Joined: 19 Feb 01 Posts: 69 Credit: 288,938 RAC: 0
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I so agree. I wish it would all stop, but until they've been burned, they won't put out the fire. I apologize for my long (and repetitive) posts. Hopefully, they will serve some good by showing the bigger picture. Happy Holidays! Matt ID: 218805 · |
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ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20258 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20
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what a waste of bandwidth and storagespace this thread has become.... At least not a complete waste. There's some good reference points in there (thanks Ingleside and others) that can be referenced for various other mini-flame-fests. There are those whom seem to be against any form of change. I guess some had found their "utopia" in the stats game surrounding s@h-classic and are now aggrieved that that game has come to an end. There's even more grievance that the "new" stats game for Boinc-s@h is different and that some already have a "2 year" lead on the new game rules... I guess out of the half million or so users, we're actually seeing remarkably few spoil-sports and spoilt-brats types. All good for the "other facts of life" and meeting up with reality. Happy crunchin', Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 218825 · |
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ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20258 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20
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...You must have missed the part about credit systems being the fuel that drives Distributed Computing projects... And also the fuel for a few angst flame-fests. Perhaps we should have an annual reset-all-scores-to-ZERO to avoid accumulating such a huge build up of angst (and sometimes hate) in the future... Looks like for some on s@h-classic, no matter how any transition over to Boinc-s@h was organised, there always was going to be a no-win crunch! Note that s@h-classic users still have their old scores to brag about for posterity. Happy crunchin', (It's all good science: Space, ET, and life on Earth!) Regards, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 218860 · |
Fuzzy Hollynoodles  Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 9659 Credit: 251,998 RAC: 0 |
what a waste of bandwidth and storagespace this thread has become.... No, this is certainly not a complete waste and to meet up with reality, I think it's time to recognize and appreciate, that developing the distributed computer project as the Classic Seti@Home, which became obsolete, and now is replaced with the BOINC Seti@Home, has become a landmark in the ability to compute data. That I, with my "little" computer, am able to participate in some very important scientific research! We owe the guys here at Seti@Home a huge thank you, because they made it possible for us to participate in projects of different kind. I was just over at the Rosetta boards (haven't been for a while, sorry! :-( ) and there I saw a thread that made me extremely happy and proud of being able to participate in a BOINC project: Fighting malaria and HIV And I quote David Baker from his first post there: "With the wonderful contributions all of you are making, we can now make much more rapid progress on the disease fighting front." All thanks to the guys here at Seti@Home!!! If it hasn't been for their visions and foresight, this wouldn't happen! About the credit, yes, the participation should be gratifying in itself, but let's face the facts, people wants to see some output of their input! So the credit system is there to give us some kind of pay back. It can't be used for anything except braggingrights, but still, I want to show off mine in my sig! And that's Ok, I think. But the main reason for us to participate in any project is to participate in the science and offer every little amount of contribution, we're able to! My  "I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me 
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koldphuzhun Send message Joined: 19 Feb 01 Posts: 69 Credit: 288,938 RAC: 0
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Thank you! Someone else who knows what I'm talking about. As illustrated in previous posts, I am so not against having anyone on this project. In fact, the more, the merrier (or more stressed). I just wish that conditions can be accepted the way they are. To meet the demands of all, they have compromised to the middle and set. But all in all, I think things are very good. So, Happy Holidays everyone and Merry Christmas! Matt ID: 219085 · |
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koldphuzhun Send message Joined: 19 Feb 01 Posts: 69 Credit: 288,938 RAC: 0
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Hey, here's a thought for any web designers out there. I'm not intelligent in this field, but I figure this is possible seeing some webpages out there. But why not set up a page on the BOINC site that lists ALL the projects registered with BOINC, and have it so it links to a central account. That way, you set up one account, go to this page, and put a checkmark next to whatever project you wanted to participate in. Then not only could you see what you were doing and your stats for each project, but maybe the status of each project and some other stuff that would be handy in one central location. Just a thought. Oh, I didn't know where would be a good spot to post this. I figured many people read this forum so somebody would be able to at least quote it or link it in a more appropriate forum. Matt ID: 219092 · |
Tern  Send message Joined: 4 Dec 03 Posts: 1122 Credit: 13,376,822 RAC: 44
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ID: 219140 · |
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koldphuzhun Send message Joined: 19 Feb 01 Posts: 69 Credit: 288,938 RAC: 0
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Oh, I didn't know where would be a good spot to post this. Noted and posted. Matt ID: 219145 · |
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Grant (SSSF) Send message Joined: 19 Aug 99 Posts: 13727 Credit: 208,696,464 RAC: 304 
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This is soooo not true - it is nothing to tick two counters when a WU is validated - one for WU count and one for BOINC points. I didn't say it couldn't be done, i said they're not comparable. Hence to do so would be pointless in the extreme. And to use your argument- rip off all those that helped with the development of BOINC. Grant Darwin NT ID: 219152 · |
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