Chees. Dogbytes your starting to morph into Paul Zimmerman.

Only very rarely, and I try not to, but it does make one think about where this world
is headed when religious fanatics want to control the entire show, everywhere.
Not a day now goes by without a major news article about some atrocity being
committed in the name of someones God.

That link got morphed, here is the photo that I originally linked to about the face of fundementialism...
[snip photo]

It's hard to tell, given the quality of that picture, if it's real or it has
been modified. I vote for modified, though I am aware that stoning does
indeed continue to be practiced some places in the world.

It's genuine. Adultery under the Taliban was a big no-no, unless it was the guy doing it.

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Chees. Dogbytes your starting to morph into Paul Zimmerman.

Only very rarely, and I try not to, but it does make one think about where this world
is headed when religious fanatics want to control the entire show, everywhere.
Not a day now goes by without a major news article about some atrocity being
committed in the name of someones God.

That link got morphed, here is the photo that I originally linked to about the face of fundementialism...
[snip photo]

It's hard to tell, given the quality of that picture, if it's real or it has
been modified. I vote for modified, though I am aware that stoning does
indeed continue to be practiced some places in the world.

Some pretty nasty stuff in this tread-I guess I now have an insight asto why the religious right are so strong headed in the States; there doesn't seem to be much room for polite discourse; even an agreement to disagree.

I am a clergy person-not a fundamentalist, quite interested in seti and in science. Somewhere along the way I have learned, slowly, far to slowly I know, that we have to respect each other and each others views. Mocking people repeatedly isn't at all helpful. This tread proports to be about religion. I would suggest that you change the name to anti-religion; this would perhaps be a little more descriptive asto the trust of the dialogue. I don't like Mr Robertson either and am appauled that he gets so much air time; and he seems be protrayed as representative of what religion is. He is a disturbing individual that needs some help, that is true. But I have to say this cafe is part of the problems also. Peace Les

Well Les, I fear I must disagree with you. In the face of such arrant, un-christian bigotry and stupidity, mockery is the perfect weapon. Unlike the fundamentalists of any religion (e.g., see photo above), it beats the hell out of stoning, hurling anathemas, calls to the basest emotions of the intellectually challanged, and the cursing of the unbeliever to the fires of eternal damnation.
Wickedness and hatefulness must always fall before laughter.

As to whether or not this is a thread about religion, again I must respectfully disagree. Those who, like me, have made a study of comparative religion and theology (purely as a matter of intellectual curiosity may I add), are often forced to the conclusion that organized religions exist mostly, if not solely, for the aggrandizement (pecuniary or for power) of their leaders and/or bureaucracies. This history of religion has shown that in every case:

a. The religious message of the founder his rapidly perverted by those who follow on.
b. The religion soon becomes hermetic, geared to excluding rather than including the non-believers.
c. Often, degenerating into bloodymindedness, if not outright bloodshed. Christianity is no exception to this.

One need only listen to the fundamentalists of any religion to know that whatever the purported "spritual" values being mouthed, the message is invariably hatred of "the other."

So, Les, when this kind of nonsense rears its head, and especially in the U.S. whose founders were quite leery of organized religions, it is the duty of every right thinking citizen to hurl, not anathemas, but rotten eggs and tomatoes at the purveyors of religious hatred. For a man should be beholden to his neighbor without the reward of heaven or the fear of hellfire.

Peace be upon us all.
Jack

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THE MOTHER OF FOOLS IS ALWAYS PREGNANT

I'M TROLLING FOR FOOLS. THIS MUST BE THE PLACE!

Chees. Dogbytes your starting to morph into Paul Zimmerman.

Only very rarely, and I try not to, but it does make one think about where this world
is headed when religious fanatics want to control the entire show, everywhere.
Not a day now goes by without a major news article about some atrocity being
committed in the name of someones God.

That link got morphed, here is the photo that I originally linked to about the face of fundementialism...

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Stare into one of the face of religious fundementalism. Do you see the terror, then think of the past, and the things that have not yet been? In the name of GOD!

Chees. Dogbytes your starting to morph into Paul Zimmerman.

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Red Bull Air Racing

Gas price by zip at Seti

Stare into one of the face of religious fundementalism. Do you see the terror, then think of the past, and the things that have not yet been? In the name of GOD!

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Some pretty nasty stuff in this tread-I guess I now have an insight asto why the religious right are so strong headed in the States; there doesn't seem to be much room for polite discourse; even an agreement to disagree.

I am a clergy person-not a fundamentalist, quite interested in seti and in science. Somewhere along the way I have learned, slowly, far to slowly I know, that we have to respect each other and each others views. Mocking people repeatedly isn't at all helpful. This tread proports to be about religion. I would suggest that you change the name to anti-religion; this would perhaps be a little more descriptive asto the trust of the dialogue. I don't like Mr Robertson either and am appauled that he gets so much air time; and he seems be protrayed as representative of what religion is. He is a disturbing individual that needs some help, that is true. But I have to say this cafe is part of the problems also. Peace Les

This thread is for all expressions about religion, pro and con. Admittedly, the majority of posts lately have been anti-religion, but there is some value to that also, as those who believe in and support religion (the general concept or specific religious views) should try to understand even those with whom they do not agree. For myself, thinking about the criticisms of my beliefs and how to answer those criticisms is a helpful excercise, even if I don't feel it necessary to post my musings in response every time. Also, it should be remembered that this is the fifth incarnation of this thread/topic, so some of us who have followed the discussion from the beginning have already posted responses or original thoughts that support religion.

Some pretty nasty stuff in this tread-I guess I now have an insight asto why the religious right are so strong headed in the States; there doesn't seem to be much room for polite discourse; even an agreement to disagree.

I am a clergy person-not a fundamentalist, quite interested in seti and in science. Somewhere along the way I have learned, slowly, far to slowly I know, that we have to respect each other and each others views. Mocking people repeatedly isn't at all helpful. This tread proports to be about religion. I would suggest that you change the name to anti-religion; this would perhaps be a little more descriptive asto the trust of the dialogue. I don't like Mr Robertson either and am appauled that he gets so much air time; and he seems be protrayed as representative of what religion is. He is a disturbing individual that needs some help, that is true. But I have to say this cafe is part of the problems also. Peace Les

Then take the thread back, provide some balance. All points of view are welcome. Personally, when these religous control freaks leave the rest of us alone, and stop trying to control our lives, I'll back off.

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The Reverend Joseph Chambers, a Pentecostal minister from Charlotte, North Carolina, has decided that two beloved American figures are poster boys for depravity. We're speaking, of course, of Bert and Ernie.

"They're two grown men sharing a house -- and a bedroom!" bellows Chambers, who has a radio ministry that broadcasts in four Southern states. "They share clothes. They eat and cook together. They vacation together and have effeminate characteristics. In one show Bert teaches Ernie how to sew. In another they tend plants together. If this isn't meant to represent a homosexual union, I can't imagine what it's supposed to represent."

Chambers is also the author of "Barney: The Purple Messiah" -- a tract that denounces the world's most insipid dinosaur as a tool of Satan and homosexuals. It's not just that Barney is purple (a clear sign of deviant sexuality); Chambers sees a greater threat: "Barney is much more than just a fun creature of kids' imaginations. He is a politically correct teacher of everything on the liberal left's agenda, from New Age evolution to radical ecology.

"To many children Barney has become a guru of sorts. He teaches transcendental thought and mystical ideas. Nothing comes through Barney's teachings more clearly than the New Age idea of using our minds to create miracles. No one should deny that positive or negative thinking can tremendously affect our lives. But such powers are clearly physical and end with the normal experiences we enjoy. God alone is supernatural."

And here's the heavy stuff: "The idea of a seance is at the forefront of almost every "Barney" program. On one show Mother Goose talks to the children from one of her books. Led by Barney, the children commune with Mother Goose and conduct a seance to bring her to them. As they sing and dance their little ditty she -- poof! -- appears in their presence. The Bible calls that necromancy and says a person who participates in such behavior is an abomination unto the Lord. This kind of occult activity fills the "Barney" material. Conjuring someone up is certainly not kids' play."

It would be funny if it weren't so fashionable among the religious tight to attack PBS -- home of Bert, Ernie and Barney -- for sponsoring "anti-Christian" programming. They call it the culture war -- Saturday morning cartoons versus Sunday morning sermons. Who will win the souls of our children? In Chambers' view, everything that happens outside of church is the work of Satan -- including the antics of big puppets.

Chambers' most recent target is "The Lion King," which he denounces as "the newest idolatry and witchcraft being pawned off on the children of America." Among other things, Chambers says, the animated movie promotes voodoo, necromancy (see Barney), astrology and ESP. Our favorite religious dingbat, the Reverend Donald Wildmon, has joined the battle against Disney, claiming that two stars of "The Lion King" -- Timon the meerkat and Pumbaa the warthog - are "the first homosexual Disney characters ever to come to the screen."

Wildmon latched on to an interview with Ernie Sabella and Nathan Lane (the actors who provided voices for the cartoon characters) that ran in the New York Times. "Timon is a feisty little cheerful fellow," Lane says. "He and Pumbaa seem to have a very nice arrangement -- though I couldn't say what the extent of their relationship is."

Sabella laughingly dismisses the suggestion, saying, "I know what Nathan says about them -- these are the first homosexual Disney characters ever to come to the screen. You can call Timon a gay character. Just don't say he reminds you of Jackie Gleason."

And then there's the American Life League, a Virginia-based anti-abortion group. The group claims that clouds in "The Lion King" form the word sex over Simba's head, that the minister in "The Little Mermaid" has a hard-on and that a voice on the soundtrack of "Aladdin" urges, "Good teenagers, take off your clothes."

Finding Satan's hand in the world of entertainment is almost as old as religion. The Roman philosopher Tertullian condemned the "pleasures of the spectacle" -- exhorting his fellow Christians to avoid wrestling, chariot racing, the circus, the theater and the show of gladiators. But our modern crusaders are fixated on art forms that are far less adult. That Chambers and Wildmon find deviance lurking behind a child's delight is not surprising. Their view of sexuality is a cartoon. We hear that Chambers next target will be the incredibly decadent and morally mischievous Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers. When will the ridiculous right grow up?

Timmy, say it ain't true! Is our beloved Captain gay?

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Some pretty nasty stuff in this tread-I guess I now have an insight asto why the religious right are so strong headed in the States; there doesn't seem to be much room for polite discourse; even an agreement to disagree.

I am a clergy person-not a fundamentalist, quite interested in seti and in science. Somewhere along the way I have learned, slowly, far to slowly I know, that we have to respect each other and each others views. Mocking people repeatedly isn't at all helpful. This tread proports to be about religion. I would suggest that you change the name to anti-religion; this would perhaps be a little more descriptive asto the trust of the dialogue. I don't like Mr Robertson either and am appauled that he gets so much air time; and he seems be protrayed as representative of what religion is. He is a disturbing individual that needs some help, that is true. But I have to say this cafe is part of the problems also. Peace Les

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Voters reject return of cross to city seal

Associated Press

November 14, 2005

REDLANDS - Voters in this town known as the City of Churches rejected a ballot measure calling for a cross to be restored to the city seal. Fifty-nine percent of voters cast ballots against Measure Q on Tuesday. City officials decided to delete the religious symbol after the American Civil Liberties Union threatened a costly lawsuit last year. They estimated the litigation could cost more than $500,000.

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me@rescam.org

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Who might they be, and where and what power do they have. Be specific.

Almost exactly half of the policians in federal gov't and up until recently they maintained contol of the federal gov't for 40 years. The overwhelming majority of politicians in larger urban areas, as demonstrated in a county by county red/blue map.

And they have a LOT of power. The design the bureaucracies and regulations, the write laws, they influence judge selection at all levels, et cetera. They created the abortion of the "commerce clause" that results in nearly any law you might wish. The Education and Energy Depts, and on and on and on and on. They influence tax code, 10K pages of Barbra Streisand.

And please don't try perpetrating myths and generalities like the so called "liberal media."

The media is what it is. The individual members of large news media outlets, like the NYT, the Chicago Trib, CNN, the big networks, especially the Big Three, et cetera, vote, 90% and above for liberal politicians. If there is a slant, it certainly isn't towards the Ann Coulter side of the spectrum. While they may not be as skeptical of Dubya et al as you might wish, they must for the most part present the picture of unbiased journalism. Editorializing a la Peter Arnett is generally discouraged. Overt bias is mostly not allowed.

Must be the voices in your head.

Ah. Nice tone to set.

Oh, BTW, this is primarily the religious thread in case you hadn't noticed. I was directly commenting on religion and politics. WTF does your response have to do with that.

When you said "And yes, I'm being sarcastic since the division between state and religion is getting blurred here in America by the ultra right wing conservatives.... and the rest of it, you presented that position as if it is somehow worse when Dubya and the religious right does it, when, in reality, that is exactly what the left does as well: they take what they believe or have faith in (i.e. dear god we'll all die without welfare or the Dept. of Education) and use gov't force to make us eat it.

Kindly take your robo-conservatism to the political thread. You're in danger of losing it.

I have no idea what this means, what is robo-conservatism? Danger of losing what?

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