[quote EPA policy here is far more stringant than anywhere in the world.
Looking for blame for a natural disaster is REDICULES !

SHIT HAPPENS !

Hmm... Yes. I suppose that Mongolia, Afghanistan and Bhutan have a bigger impact on air pollution than USA have.
Thank good does not everybody in USA have the same opinion as you that al happen by coincidence

In fact al of the Industrial world contribute to the pollution and now China is on its way to be motorized
so I guess it is too late if that makes you feel any better.[/quote]


Jesus I HATE Foreigners

THEY ARE ALL SUCH FU** KNOW IT ALLS

Big countries big problems .. little countries well mostly they just bitch & moan and want the big countries to take care of them and blame them for everthing.

Jesus I HATE Foreigners

THEY ARE ALL SUCH FU** KNOW IT ALLS

He he he...
Too bad for you cause al of USA ARE foreigners except the indians. ;)

---

Jesus I HATE Foreigners

THEY ARE ALL SUCH FU** KNOW IT ALLS

He he he...
Too bad for you cause al of USA ARE foreigners except the indians. ;)

Gee what Inteligance from the land of BLOND BOOBS

Jesus I HATE Foreigners

THEY ARE ALL SUCH FU** KNOW IT ALLS

You sir, are an @$$...

Ever think that you are a foreigner to a great deal of people?

Jesus I HATE Foreigners

THEY ARE ALL SUCH FU** KNOW IT ALLS

You sir, are an @$$...

Ever think that you are a foreigner to a great deal of people?

Maybe but If I want your shit I'D squezze your head

Gee what Inteligance from the land of BLOND BOOBS

Actually close to 1/2 of the population emigrated to North America in the beginning of 1900, maybe you are a relative to one of them.;)

---

Gee what Inteligance from the land of BLOND BOOBS

Actually close to 1/2 of the population emigrated to North America in the beginning of 1900, maybe you are a relative to one of them.;)

Maybe Your relatives decended from apes

Nice pissing contest but back to serious work gotta go polute something

Maybe Your relatives decended from apes

Nice pissing contest but back to serious work gotta go polute something

Is the name Darwin familiar?

---

Maybe Your relatives decended from apes

Nice pissing contest but back to serious work gotta go polute something

Is the name Darwin familiar?

No is He one of Your relatives

Ladies, gentlemen, primates, please!

If you're not going to do anything for the people dying, please sit quietly in the corner mumbling to yourself.

---

Stewie: So, is there any tread left on the tires? Or at this point would it be like throwing a hot dog down a hallway?

Fox Sunday (US) at 9PM ET/PT

Is the name Darwin familiar?

No is He one of Your relatives

If you don't know who Darwin is I guess science is not one of your interests but what are you doing here then?

---

Is the name Darwin familiar?

No is He one of Your relatives

If you don't know who Darwin is I guess science is not one of your interests but what are you doing here then?

THE PISSING CONTEST IS OVER !!! GET A LIFE

Is the name Darwin familiar?

No is He one of Your relatives

If you don't know who Darwin is I guess science is not one of your interests but what are you doing here then?

THE PISSING CONTEST IS OVER !!! GET A LIFE

This discussion?? (mud throwing...) is really unworthy to appear in this board.
The used language leaves very much to be desired.
Persons using such language are a vexation to the well educated mind and the balanced spirit.

Our thoughts should go in the first place to the victims and the families!!!


HP from Belgium

For what it's worth, my take on this is:

1) This was an expected natural disaster, waiting to happen. It is staggering that the US authorities appeared to have no coherent disaster plan at any level, from evacuating and supporting the NO people up to releasing emergency gas stocks. That is what left the poor people stuck in the middle of the city, and it seems to be related to the American belief in having as little government as possible.


2) Once the emergency services started to respond they were unable to move rapidly because of the violence and armed gangs. This seems to be related to the American belief that giving citizens ready access to guns is a good idea.


3) The emergency services responded to this problem by pulling back. This is what left the poor with no support, and it seems to be related to the US military doctrine of standing back and smothering your enemy with firepower rather than 'getting in close and personal'. Standing back with superior weapons is all very well in a conventional battle - it gives you less casualties at the expense of more collateral damage - but of course it was valueless in this circumstance.

---

For what it's worth, my take on this is:

1) This was an expected natural disaster, waiting to happen. It is staggering that the US authorities appeared to have no coherent disaster plan at any level, from evacuating and supporting the NO people up to releasing emergency gas stocks. That is what left the poor people stuck in the middle of the city, and it seems to be related to the American belief in having as little government as possible.


2) Once the emergency services started to respond they were unable to move rapidly because of the violence and armed gangs. This seems to be related to the American belief that giving citizens ready access to guns is a good idea.


3) The emergency services responded to this problem by pulling back. This is what left the poor with no support, and it seems to be related to the US military doctrine of standing back and smothering your enemy with firepower rather than 'getting in close and personal'. Standing back with superior weapons is all very well in a conventional battle - it gives you less casualties at the expense of more collateral damage - but of course it was valueless in this circumstance.

What a bunch of CRAP
I suggest You rewatch the news and this time pay more attention.
Or may be the facts were different in England

Stuff Your anti americian attitude ... Brittish arrogance !!

Taking Cheap pot shots at a natural disaster is apauling to say the least!

For what it's worth, my take on this is:

1) This was an expected natural disaster, waiting to happen. It is staggering that the US authorities appeared to have no coherent disaster plan .....

What a bunch of CRAP
I suggest You rewatch the news and this time pay more attention.
Or may be the facts were different in England

Stuff Your anti americian attitude ... Brittish arrogance !!

Taking Cheap pot shots at a natural disaster is apauling to say the least!

Thank you for your informative response.

I assume from your post that the US news portrays this as a natural disaster which is being dealt with efficiently by the authorities. Over here the presentation is rather different - a natural disaster which was made initially worse by the authorities response (or rather, lack of one). We would all be interested to know if we have been misinformed, or whether your post is influenced by another common American belief - that nothing you do can possibly be wrong.

---

What do you think the effects of Katrina will be on Seti?

People will move over to CP@H?

For what it's worth, my take on this is:

1) This was an expected natural disaster, waiting to happen. It is staggering that the US authorities appeared to have no coherent disaster plan at any level, from evacuating and supporting the NO people up to releasing emergency gas stocks. That is what left the poor people stuck in the middle of the city, and it seems to be related to the American belief in having as little government as possible.


2) Once the emergency services started to respond they were unable to move rapidly because of the violence and armed gangs. This seems to be related to the American belief that giving citizens ready access to guns is a good idea.


3) The emergency services responded to this problem by pulling back. This is what left the poor with no support, and it seems to be related to the US military doctrine of standing back and smothering your enemy with firepower rather than 'getting in close and personal'. Standing back with superior weapons is all very well in a conventional battle - it gives you less casualties at the expense of more collateral damage - but of course it was valueless in this circumstance.

What a bunch of CRAP
I suggest You rewatch the news and this time pay more attention.
Or may be the facts were different in England

Stuff Your anti americian attitude ... Brittish arrogance !!

Taking Cheap pot shots at a natural disaster is apauling to say the least!

Robert

I hope that when you return to read this you have calmed down a little. :-)

There are four issues here that are getting mixed up. One the hurricane itself and the disaster that is has caused, two the relief effort and whether it was adequate enough, three whether the hurricane was more violent because of global warming and four is global warming related to human activity.

The news here in the UK has shown news-reel footage of victims saying that the effort was too little too late. So our opions aren't anti-American but gleened from Americans in New Orleans itself.

I think that the general consenus is that the recent spate of hurricanes have been more violent because, due to gloabl warming, recent sea temperatures are half a degree higher than they have been in recent times. This may not seem a lot but it provides an enormous amount of additional energy.

The jury is still out on the question of the cause of global warming. But we get the impression that the present American government thinks it is natural whilst many other governments think it is not. That's not anti-American, just an opinion.

To go back to the the question of preparidness there is an article in Scientific American in 2001, it explains how the re-engineering of the Mississippi delta has caused the problem and made the disaster more likely to occur with each passing year. It also gives an insight into how, although the problem was well understood and solutions were available, no-one in the administration could quite get up the energy to actually do anything about it.

Here in the UK we have more of a culture of cristising our Government when things, that we expect them to be reponsible for - such as relief effort, go wrong. We do this in attempt to make sure it doesn't happen again, also politics over here are a lot more adversarial. I get the impression (maybe wrongly) that in the States critsism of the Government (especially by foreigners) is seen as un-American.

So when responding to posts by foreigners understand that they don't necessarily have the same views and backgrounds as yours. :)

---

I'm going to TRY to answer this coherently with no flames... please note that I am answering this for the Americans here - I don't care what the original poster thinks.

For what it's worth, my take on this is:

1) This was an expected natural disaster, waiting to happen. It is staggering that the US authorities appeared to have no coherent disaster plan at any level, from evacuating and supporting the NO people up to releasing emergency gas stocks. That is what left the poor people stuck in the middle of the city, and it seems to be related to the American belief in having as little government as possible.

The American IDEAL is as little government as possible - unfortunately, that's not what we have. We have a federal government that "micromanages" the states, which in turn micromanage the cities. Funding is sucked up to the federal level, leaving the cities and states only what the fed "chooses" to pass back down.

The City of New Orleans declared a "mandatory evacuation", and then promptly did nothing. They didn't assist the hospitals, schools, housing projects, etc. to evacuate. Therefore, only those with the money, health, AND brains to leave did so. Leaving the poor, the helpless, and the stupid in the city, at the mercy of those who stayed because they anticipated "easy pickings", looting, rape, etc. The city was also responsible for having adequate emergency resources on hand for dealing with the disaster, and a solid enough infrastructure to keep at least some power/water/sewage/phone service going.

The State of Louisiana is responsible for immediate emergency relief to the cities, AND for providing the infrastructure to prevent/minimize the flooding, maintain phone and power and water and sewage services to the surrounding area even in emergency situations, etc. They failed in their "preparatory" actions, and they failed miserably in their emergency reaction. Martial law should have been declared as soon as the flood waters began rising instead of falling. The state also is in charge of calling out the National Guard, which was done way too late.

The federal government is "technically" limited in what they CAN do, until martial law is declared by the state - but they have "mandated" that FEMA be "in charge" of all disaster planning, removing that power from the states and cities over the last 20 years. And meanwhile, FEMA has been gutted by prior administrations, then put under "Homeland Security" by this one, making it one of THE most incompetent agencies in the government - and that's saying something. At the federal level, emergency response units should have been stationed "on alert" when Katrina was near Florida - not wait until the disaster was already well under way to even start working on a response. (And they were responsible for maintaining the levies that failed, as well, for some bizarre reason...)

In the late 1970s, I was a member of an emergency response unit. The control then was at the city level, with most support for what we couldn't do because of resource limits coming from the state, and very little beyond that available from the national level. In a disaster, the LOCAL people would be in charge, using those "outside" resources as necessary. Today if a city calls for help, they give up control. As I see it, this situation has just proved that we have too MUCH government involvement - nobody is in charge!

This problem crosses party lines. NEITHER party is the "party of less government", and BOTH parties have failed to plan for, prepare for, or execute an adequate response to this disaster.

2) Once the emergency services started to respond they were unable to move rapidly because of the violence and armed gangs. This seems to be related to the American belief that giving citizens ready access to guns is a good idea.

Yes, ready access to guns is a WONDERFUL idea. Unfortunately, only about 20-40% of those in New Orleans had them; mostly those who probably had the money, health, and brains to leave. There are hundreds of pictures on the web of individuals protecting their loved ones and property with privately-owned firearms, all this last week. If I were trapped in a hospital, office, apartment building, whatever, facing the possibility of thugs armed with clubs, knives, or (gasp!) guns, I'd just as soon have one myself, thank you. This disaster proves beyond ANY doubt that you can't "rely on the police for protection". You are responsible for your OWN protection. Maybe 99% of the time, calling 911 is adequate. The other 1%, it isn't. And yes, I have had to pull a gun for protection myself, so I know about the 1% case, thank you very much. Otherwise, I (and my family) wouldn't be here to have this discussion.

I seriously doubt the people shooting at rescue crews, looting electronics stores, and raping anyone they can catch, had the money to purchase a firearm and the clean criminal background necessary to get a license to carry one. They stole what they're using - possibly from a police officer. Who knows.

3) The emergency services responded to this problem by pulling back. This is what left the poor with no support, and it seems to be related to the US military doctrine of standing back and smothering your enemy with firepower rather than 'getting in close and personal'. Standing back with superior weapons is all very well in a conventional battle - it gives you less casualties at the expense of more collateral damage - but of course it was valueless in this circumstance.

The city police - with NO leadership, no direction, no planning - did what they could, until they were overwhelmed. (Except for a few who seem to have decided "if you can't beat them, join them", and did some looting of their own...) And there was no "backup" ready to come to their aid. Once the "backup" FINALLY started arriving, days (and who knows how many deaths) late, there was no "pulling back". In fact, current reports seem to show that there may be a bit too MUCH aggression - an "everybody left here is probably the enemy" attitude...

The entire thing is a disaster of indescribable proportions. We can (and I'm sure will) debate the causes for months. Global warming or whatever other environmental cause-of-the-day may even have contributed to the intensity of the storm. I don't know. I do know that ALL levels of goverment failed to do their job. The bottom line RIGHT NOW though is to put aside the partisan bickering, and start finding homes, jobs, food, and security for the ONE HALF MILLION people displaced by this. And to start burying and mourning the thousands who have died. THEN we should worry about what to do next. But I'm sure instead, we'll just argue about what should have been done before, and which political party screwed up the worst, and nothing will be accomplished.

To the original poster: You can bash the U.S. all you like - just realize that you have no say in what we do here, and a very imperfect knowledge of how we go about doing it. We're perfectly capable of bashing those who screwed up ourselves - and can do a much better job than you can. Basically, nobody here cares what "your take" on it is. All you accomplish by spouting off from your remote ivory tower, a "subject" rather than a "free man", is to get us angry at you. Nothing constructive, nothing useful - unless it makes your ego feel better to see us "down" for once, instead of our being in the role of having to rescue your country this time. And there are plenty within your own country who would agree much more with me, than with you.

Anyone who wishes to continue to discuss this, I would recommend we take it to email, or at any rate, someplace else. "Number Crunching" really isn't intended for this... My email address is my name (with a dot between first and last) at comcast dot-net. No guarantees how quickly I'll answer anything, but I'll eventually get there.

EDIT:: I said the "poor, the helpless, and the stupid" were left in the city - I should add two more categories - those who have been lied to by government so much that they no longer trust what is said, and stayed because they believed they would be safer in place, and those who stayed because they believed they could be of help to others.

I think it is time for USA government to at least take a second look at and try to reconsider the Kyoto Protocol.

Here is something for you Robert.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/pollution.html#Pollution

---