Venus Express Has Reached Its Final Orbit

Venus Express entered its target orbit at apocentre on 7 May 2006 at 15:31 (CEST), when the spacecraft was at 151 million kilometres from Earth.

still more to do before the science starts

Until beginning of June, Venus Express will continue its "orbit commissioning Phase", started on 22 April this year. "The spacecraft instruments are now being switched on one by one for detailed checking, which we will continue until mid May. Then we will operate them all together or in groups"said Don McCoy, Venus Express Project Manager. "This allows simultaneous observations of phenomena to be tested, to be ready when Venus Express' nominal science phase begins on 4 June 2006," he concluded.

Full story published 9th May 2006 at http://www.venustoday.com/news/viewpr.rss.html?pid=19797

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Ongoing Venus Orbit Commissioning

Thought it had been quiet but this is the latest project update:

In the reporting period two apocentre lowering manoeuvres have been executed as part of the orbit insertion phase, which is proceeding as scheduled. These manoeuvres have been interleaved with payload commissioning activities involving most of the instruments.

Published 2nd May 2006 http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=39189

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Hot Discovery: Dark Vortex on Venus

The latest images from Venus show a previously suspected dark vortex over the south pole of the planet.

Sending the first ever images of this planet's south pole, the European Space Agency's (ESA) Venus Express mission shows the unexplained formation from a distance of 128,283 miles (206,452 kilometers).

Full story at http://www.space.com/mission launches/060413_venus_images.html

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Chemical structure of sulfonic acid.
and it's sulfonic, sulfuric, sulfurous, sufuryl,.
I am a US citizen.

The English-speaking world extends somewhat past the borders of the USA.

The above structure wouldn't be stable, having a tendency to rearrange itself to

  OH
  |
O=S:
  |
  OH

which is sulphurous (sulfurous) acid. Molecules like this one, with several tautomers or resonance structures, are usually treated as existing in an intermediate or 'averaged' state.

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This will sound like a joke, and maybe it is, but I almost think that it would be easier to build some sort of gigantic vacuum cleaner (Spaceballs anyone?) and suck up all the atmosphere from Venus and then start from scratch. It sounds ludicrous, I know, but Venus will be a though nut to crack.

We would need to know the secret combination to the atmosphere :-)

Actually, a chemical reaction (whether bilogical or not) would likely cause a huge amount of material to precipitate as solids or liquids and cover the surface. Less gas would tend to lead to less pressure.

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.

I am NOT a chemist ...
But I have an overactive Google finger !!! ;-))

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/s1/sulfonic.asp

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Get with the Power of Computing ... USE A MAC, dammit, USE A MAC ! ;-))

Chemical structure of sulfonic acid.
and it's sulfonic, sulfuric, sulfurous, sufuryl,.
I am a US citizen.

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TEAM
LL

I think you have a bad view of acid. Volcanos spew CO2, and SO2. The latter is turned into sufonic acid which is an active cosmic ray deflector.

Sulphuric acid H2SO4 (not sulphonic, just what is sulphonic acid?).

The name (assuming you've correctly translated "sufonic") would imply an acid formed from the sulphonyl radical, hence HOSO2H, but this turns out to be a resonance structure for sulphurous acid (hydrogen sulphite). Sulphonic acids, however, are a class of organic compounds analagous to the carboxylic acids, with a sulphonyl group substituted for the carbonyl. (American readers are free to substitute "f" for "ph" in any of the above.)

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Cosmic rays are not enough of an effect. The heat comes from sunlight.

That was assuming that the sun produces most of the cosmic rays/radiation near us. I guess technically cosmic rays come from beyond the sun but SO3H does reflect much radiation.

Sulphuric acid H2SO4 (not sulphonic, just what is sulphonic acid?). Coal is carbon, but not much in the way of carbonates (CaCO3 is calcium carbonate, and does not burn at all)..

Sulfonic acid is SO2 plus H2O. There is sulpher in coal, that's what scrubbing is all about. It was causing acid rain which is sulfonic acid and it pits limestone (calcium carbonate) buildings. You don't burn carbonates but it's most commonly found as limestone which much of the US has built it's buildings.
Why would you burn carbonate?

You almost conviced me that I'm not a chemist.

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TEAM
LL

What's the use of having good atmosphere if you end up with a surface so acid you can't stand on it?

I don't know enough about chemistry, that's for certain. Whatever the solution, the byproducts of fixing the atmosphere have to either be benign, or easily cleaned up.

I think you have a bad view of acid. Volcanos spew CO2, and SO2. The latter is turned into sufonic acid which is an active cosmic ray deflector. The more in the atmosphere, the cooler the atmosphere. Our last mini-ice age (which was in the last 300 years) was a direct result of a large release from a volcano which released a huge amout of SO2 to cover the earth.

Cosmic rays are not enough of an effect. The heat comes from sunlight.

SO2 will get converted to sulphates and sulfites which is integral to life as we know it. That's why it's a common ingredient in coal which is dead/old organic matter. It would not be too acidic here, for example, because of the carbonates which is a base. Carbonates come from CO2 and water. This is why venus needs to be bombarded with icy meteors. You need the acids and bases for the chemistry of life. There are ammonium carbonates that would be conceivable from N2 and CO2. N2+3H2+(metal catalyst)=2NH3.

Sulphuric acid H2SO4 (not sulphonic, just what is sulphonic acid?). Coal is carbon, but not much in the way of carbonates (CaCO3 is calcium carbonate, and does not burn at all).

Metal catalysts are very commmon in chemistry of life as well. If you look on a box of miracle grow, you will see trace metals. The reason it is so good is directly because they include those metals. The plants use the metals to do reductions and oxidations to produce the compounds they need.

First, you'd have to decide what you wanted to happen. Then determine what equilibrium you want and then you could calculate how much you need to add. Once you got to a certain point, you would probably want to introduce bacteria to consume the CO2 the rest of the way. Let it find it's own balance for life.

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BOINC WIKI

What's the use of having good atmosphere if you end up with a surface so acid you can't stand on it?

I don't know enough about chemistry, that's for certain. Whatever the solution, the byproducts of fixing the atmosphere have to either be benign, or easily cleaned up.

I think you have a bad view of acid. Volcanos spew CO2, and SO2. The latter is turned into sufonic acid which is an active cosmic ray deflector. The more in the atmosphere, the cooler the atmosphere. Our last mini-ice age (which was in the last 300 years) was a direct result of a large release from a volcano which released a huge amout of SO2 to cover the earth.

Yes, chemistry is not my strong suit. Thanks for the explanation.

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There are three basic types, Mr. Pizer, the wills, the won'ts, and the can'ts. The wills accomplish everything, the won'ts oppose everything, and the can'ts won't try anything.

What's the use of having good atmosphere if you end up with a surface so acid you can't stand on it?

I don't know enough about chemistry, that's for certain. Whatever the solution, the byproducts of fixing the atmosphere have to either be benign, or easily cleaned up.

I think you have a bad view of acid. Volcanos spew CO2, and SO2. The latter is turned into sufonic acid which is an active cosmic ray deflector. The more in the atmosphere, the cooler the atmosphere. Our last mini-ice age (which was in the last 300 years) was a direct result of a large release from a volcano which released a huge amout of SO2 to cover the earth.

SO2 will get converted to sulphates and sulfites which is integral to life as we know it. That's why it's a common ingredient in coal which is dead/old organic matter. It would not be too acidic here, for example, because of the carbonates which is a base. Carbonates come from CO2 and water. This is why venus needs to be bombarded with icy meteors. You need the acids and bases for the chemistry of life. There are ammonium carbonates that would be conceivable from N2 and CO2. N2+3H2+(metal catalyst)=2NH3.

Metal catalysts are very commmon in chemistry of life as well. If you look on a box of miracle grow, you will see trace metals. The reason it is so good is directly because they include those metals. The plants use the metals to do reductions and oxidations to produce the compounds they need.

First, you'd have to decide what you wanted to happen. Then determine what equilibrium you want and then you could calculate how much you need to add. Once you got to a certain point, you would probably want to introduce bacteria to consume the CO2 the rest of the way. Let it find it's own balance for life.

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TEAM
LL

It's a long term project for sure. It's about turning it into something workable.

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TEAM
LL

Mars is close to exiting the habitable zone. It would have to be venus for times sake since Venus is barely into the habitable zone. i.e a good distance from the sun.

The real way to convert it would be with a catalyst that works well under pressure and heat which most need. The catalyst would have to convert it to something that would not simply convert back quicker than it's generated.

For example:

Hydrogenation of supercritical carbon dioxide: Supercritical carbon dioxide can be hydrogenated rapidly with Ru(II) complex catalysts to afford formic acid, methyl formate, and dimethylformamide in high yield.

Hydrogenation of supercritical carbon dioxide

Particularly one might find one that could use N2 as a reactant. I'll give it a look if I remember and have time.

The problem I see with chemical solutions to the problem is that all that matter (plus the reactants) in the atmosphere has to end up somewhere... the surface. Terraforming is not only the act of converting the atmosphere into something more palatable, but also the ground, the soil. What's the use of having good atmosphere if you end up with a surface so acid you can't stand on it?

I don't know enough about chemistry, that's for certain. Whatever the solution, the byproducts of fixing the atmosphere have to either be benign, or easily cleaned up.

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There are three basic types, Mr. Pizer, the wills, the won'ts, and the can'ts. The wills accomplish everything, the won'ts oppose everything, and the can'ts won't try anything.

Another consideration would be something that would produce compounds that would reflect cosmic rays like some acids do. Sulpher containg compounds perhaps.

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TEAM
LL

Mars is close to exiting the habitable zone. It would have to be venus for times sake since Venus is barely into the habitable zone. i.e a good distance from the sun.

The real way to convert it would be with a catalyst that works well under pressure and heat which most need. The catalyst would have to convert it to something that would not simply convert back quicker than it's generated.

For example:

Hydrogenation of supercritical carbon dioxide: Supercritical carbon dioxide can be hydrogenated rapidly with Ru(II) complex catalysts to afford formic acid, methyl formate, and dimethylformamide in high yield.

Hydrogenation of supercritical carbon dioxide

Particularly one might find one that could use N2 as a reactant. I'll give it a look if I remember and have time.

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TEAM
LL

What steps need to be taken, and in what order so that we can Terraform Venus? Would that be an easier and more practical job than Terraforming Mars?

Actually, it might be easier to Terraform Mars. At least a lot more has been written about and considered with our red neighbor.

This will sound like a joke, and maybe it is, but I almost think that it would be easier to build some sort of gigantic vacuum cleaner (Spaceballs anyone?) and suck up all the atmosphere from Venus and then start from scratch. It sounds ludicrous, I know, but Venus will be a though nut to crack.

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There are three basic types, Mr. Pizer, the wills, the won'ts, and the can'ts. The wills accomplish everything, the won'ts oppose everything, and the can'ts won't try anything.

Lol, at a pressure of 9300 kPa compared to our 100 kPa atomosphere, the algae would likely float somewhere in the middle. It's curious that they pussure is so high, the CO2 would have to be consumed and put in storage by the carbon cycle such as on earth where the carbon gets stored as organic matter such as oil, graphite, styrofoam, etc. Not to mention the lack of water.

It needs to be bombarded with 0.18 earth weights of icy meteors.

And WOOOOHOOOOOO! Way to go ESA!

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TEAM
LL

What steps need to be taken, and in what order so that we can Terraform Venus? Would that be an easier and more practical job than Terraforming Mars?

When one searches for information on terraforming Venus, it appears that no one has seriously considered the process since probes showed the planet's surface to be a high-pressure kiln.

The original plans were to dump some sort of algae or other hardy photosynthesizing life form into the clouds and watch the planet magically turn intself into a paradise. We now know that the very high-level clouds actually lower the surface temperature by reflecting sunlight into space. The algae would need to be seeded at or very near the surface and survive the extreme heat and pressure there.

Another problem would be Venus's very slow rotation. A solar day on Venus is a bit over half of a Venus solar year, and it would make local farming problematic... unless one used a crop that could grow to harvetable maturity within a solar day (then just make a belt all the way around the planet with crops at various stages of growth). On the positive side, a vehicle would only have to move about 4mph to remain directly under the Sun if there was a need for such a thing. It is likely to be far more efficient to adapt to Venus's rotation than to attempt to change it... Venus appeared to be in some sort of tidal lock with Earth's orbit.

If the surface atmosphere could be converted into something that doesn't trap heat so efficiently, then the upper clouds could be tackled with a similar approach. This would actually be easier than modifying the lower atmosphere, and one of the challenges of the project would be to modify the lower atmosphere without accidentally changing the upper layers.

I don't know how the extremely high atmospheric pressure could be changed without increasing Venus's rotational speed by a couple orders of magnitude. Some sort of chemical reaction to trap atmospheric gasses in the crust might be possible, depending on what minerals are present on the planet.

Current models of Venus predict that any water that had been present has been split into hydrogen and oxygen. The latter would have seeped out into space and the former gobbled up into CO2. This greatly complicates efforts to colonize the planet, although it's possible that some minerals in the crust could have some hydrogen in them. In any case, if we go to all the effort to terraform the planet, it's not unreasonable to divert several hundred comets or Kuiper Belt objects to re-seed the planet with water.

In all, Mars seems to be the lower-cost (but also lower-reward) terraforming project. Mars will likely be green before Venus.

(edit for spelling)

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.

What steps need to be taken, and in what order so that we can Terraform Venus? Would that be an easier and more practical job than Terraforming Mars?

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Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.