Good fun. I thought I would objectively shake the trees and see what falls.

Well, just so you know, it takes very little to make me fall ... :)

Paul you must have too much time on your hands, or you type fast. Some clarification:

Actually both are true. I don't type as fast as I would like, but pretty fast. I also read fast too ... I think I killed 4 books this week ... just wrapped up Hunt for Red October and am in Cardinal ...

And, when I am too screwed up to work, I can still do this ... so, instead of me looking here twice a day (first thing in the morning and then just before quiting) I come back a lot ...

* "Angry monster" is not me, it is the seti client universe who keeps asking those poor folks for more wu's. I robbed the phrase more or less from one of the developer's post I saw somewhere.

Ah, Ok ...

It just seemed to me that your tone in the quoted post fit that expression. But, I am awake now ... :)

* 'Shut-up' is not a quote, but a succinct summary of what is being replied by the peanut butter crew when object criticism (and sometimes frustration) is presented to this community. I could be more foul mouthed and mean spirited, like John Crapper, but there is no reason to be.

Well, I don't quite agree with this. But, I don't pick up on emotional content well, so, it has to be pretty blatent for me to see it. But, I agree that at times the answers can be more curt than I would wish. I can understand it though because, usually, the curtness comes from he frustration of the normal helpers who are trying to get everyone on the same page and to have 20 threads with essentially the same question is, um, ah, er, frustrating. I know that I read all the threads and look at the news flashes, etc. before I ask ... but, not everyone does that, unfortunately.

So, frustration on the part of the person that does not understand why the system is not working as expected, and frustration by the forumees who try to help people. If you hang out here you will sometimes see me remonstrate both sides of the, um, er, disorder. Being on the help desk is thankless for the most part and very frustrating. But, in general, the help is neutral in tone. As it should be. But, none of us are perfect. Heck, in my history I have had my moments too ... but the time Heffed and I went for a walk in the woods, well, I own my part there ... I should have behaved better. But, we grew out of it and I think now we are friends, and even friends have disagreements (aside: Heffed, I debated mentioning this, but, it is the best example I can think of - so, forgive?)

* I don't buy the 'system' idea, but it is an appropriate one. However, I'm not personally excited with most of the objectives of the other boinc projects, many of which would probably better done on captive DC computers (not to get into that here). But very few investors would support the seti objective, except via donation of used equipment, etc., so that is where we come in. Maybe Microsoft Vista will provide a hook to their system idle process for distributed computing. Perhaps I shouldn't have said that because the MS-Haters will come out of the Aether.

You are correct that many of the projects could be done "faster"/"better" on a dedicated system. But, again, from the system perspective, especially from a funding perspective it is hard to beat "free" resources. Again, looking at things from the total system perspective this has to be overwhelmingly the "best" way to get from here to there.

* Lack of credibility: I guess that is part of my original post; the peanut butter crew keep tell us about how the seti staff have a life outside of seti, that we have used up all the work units seti can produce so add other projects, and so on, instead of tell us something concrete, like yesterday's technical post provided (i.e. that the network architecture needs to be revamped a bit). Perhaps objectivity should precede credibility. I'm not too worried whether anyone thinks I'm personally credible, since I am not in the decision path of the project.

Between you and me, it is strange that these kinds of posts elicit all sorts of traffic, but if one actually poses a scientific question, very little response is heard. It must be easier to demagogue in the computer science community than in the mathematical and astronomical community.

Well, most of the science is over my head. I read a lot, did electronics as a sailor, so I know the basic concepts behind what they are doing ... but, not my field so all I can say is a summarization of the overall goal ...

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Thought I'd just de-lurk to assure you that your great work is appreciated.

Is that anything like de-cloaking?

Jim

[Waaaay OT] Yeah, you know, it's hard to do ceerleading with a cloak on,

Ayone want any peanut butter?[/OT]

*g,d&r*

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Good fun. I thought I would objectively shake the trees and see what falls.

Paul you must have too much time on your hands, or you type fast. Some clarification:
* "Angry monster" is not me, it is the seti client universe who keeps asking those poor folks for more wu's. I robbed the phrase more or less from one of the developer's post I saw somewhere.
* 'Shut-up' is not a quote, but a succinct summary of what is being replied by the peanut butter crew when object criticism (and sometimes frustration) is presented to this community. I could be more foul mouthed and mean spirited, like John Crapper, but there is no reason to be.
* I don't buy the 'system' idea, but it is an appropriate one. However, I'm not personally excited with most of the objectives of the other boinc projects, many of which would probably better done on captive DC computers (not to get into that here). But very few investors would support the seti objective, except via donation of used equipment, etc., so that is where we come in. Maybe Microsoft Vista will provide a hook to their system idle process for distributed computing. Perhaps I shouldn't have said that because the MS-Haters will come out of the Aether.
* Lack of credibility: I guess that is part of my original post; the peanut butter crew keep tell us about how the seti staff have a life outside of seti, that we have used up all the work units seti can produce so add other projects, and so on, instead of tell us something concrete, like yesterday's technical post provided (i.e. that the network architecture needs to be revamped a bit). Perhaps objectivity should precede credibility. I'm not too worried whether anyone thinks I'm personally credible, since I am not in the decision path of the project.

Between you and me, it is strange that these kinds of posts elicit all sorts of traffic, but if one actually poses a scientific question, very little response is heard. It must be easier to demagogue in the computer science community than in the mathematical and astronomical community.

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May this Farce be with You

before you give PhonAcq an idea, it's de-constructive. ;)

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Thought I'd just de-lurk to assure you that your great work is appreciated.

Is that anything like de-cloaking?

Jim

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With a tight grip on my pom-poms ...

[Snippage...]
Very well said, sir. I totally agree to your post.

Thought I'd just de-lurk to assure you that your great work is appreciated.

greetings from Germany.

Now, I'll exercise a bit with those pom-poms...

Rah!

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Over the last few days there was a lot of bits burned by the pom-pomers claiming that people should just shut up about the recent seti operations issues and run other projects because Seti cannot produce enough work units. That is, the seti community computes too fast and that there will not be enough data (at least right now from Arecibo) to keep the angry monster happy.

With a tight grip on my pom-poms ... I don't recall anyone saying that anyone else should "shut-up". A person in search of information about the problems had their questions answered, for the most part, with the best information available. I grant you I can no longer drive, so I cannot go to UCB and peek in their windows. But, I spent more than 30 years studying systems and analyzing their problems. So, I am not a complete novice. When I am expressing an opinion I am usually real clear about what is an objective fact and what are my opinions about what is going on.

One of those facts is that BOINC is intended to be a robust system that is fault tolerant as a system. The point that many miss is that the part that they see at home is only one small part of a much more complex system. The ability of any project to provide a continuous stream of work is not guarenteed nor expected. As additional examples, LHC@Home has a history of periods of time, as long as a couple of months where there is no work to be had ... SETI@Home is experencing one for a different reason.

Our encouragement of people to participate in other projects is a realization that the BOINC System is actually the sum of all of the BOINC Powered Projects (I like that phrase ... especially as I invented it ... and my less favorite Research Powered by BOINC). With that in mind, the system component you see on your desktop is best run while connected to more than one project.

If you choose to run it otherwise, like with attachment to only one project; well, you have just sub-optimized the BOINC System. From there, it is a choice. Run the BOINC System as intended, or, experience sub-optimal performance. It is like using a two seater sports car to haul 20 tons of dirt ... you can get the job done, but not efficiently.

Your insults are interesting reading, but mostly serve to destroy your credibility. Another choice. I prefer to look at the positive side of things (also stated by another person (forgive me I am too messed up to look up your name - but you said it well)) rather than dwelling on the negitive side of the, um, challenges. Your post seems to imply the position that you are "owed" somthing when, again, as others have said, we volunteered for this.

Most interesting to me is your self-charicterization as "... the angry monster". Perhaps a moment of reflection would let you consider that perhaps, just perhaps, the anger may be getting in the way? Just a thought.

But then I read today's technical section and learned that the seti professional's know there is a bottleneck in wu production and are taking steps to fix it. The implication is that there is a lot of data to analyze. That is great! (And thanks to the seti-pro's for the good work and information!)

Again, here we see that you use an informational message as a confirmation of your points but fail to see that this very same post validates what us, um, "Cheerleaders" have been saying. BOINC is a work in progress. While in progress there are going to be problems. Many, if not most, or almost all, are such that the ability to do science is not compromised. Through almost the entire time I have been doing BOINC I have been doing valuable science. While SETI@Home was having this latest "snit", I was still doing science. Some for SETI@Home, more for other projects when I could not get SETI@Home.

I respect those that want to do one project only. I don't agree with that philosophy for the reasons explained above. But I do not denigrate them, their choices, or their opinions. I don't agree with your opinion, and I have stated why. But I have never applied a "label" to you, or your opinion. Can you say the same?

Yes, there was a problem, It was spotted, and something was done to correct it. But, that correction does not solve all problems, nor does it guarentee that we will have unlimited work, now, or in the future.

So I guess the pom-pomers (you know who you are!) really don't know stuff, are only guessing, and prefer to spread thick peanut butter over any difficult situation. I, for one, would appreciate truely objective information, and not somebody's emotives.

Yes, A lot of what I say are guesses. Guesses made based on experience. Labeled as such. Things I can tie down and assert with authority I do so. Again, almost always as "As best as I can determine this is ..." ...

And just so there is no misunderstanding, I am not posting this to convince you, to try to change your mind. I am only doing this rebuttal for those that might come here and be led astray by an apparent inability to exchange opinions without a descent into the sewer. If you are truly in search of answers, we have some. Many that cannot be absolutely pinned down unequivically. But, most backed by experience and research.

Rah!

Feel free to call me names ... I am autistic, it is unlikely that you are going to find one that I will understand as an insult ...

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I think we also forgot that we VOLUNTEERED for this. I love Boinc. It's a really neat idea, flaws and all. But I VOLUNTEERED for the whole package, good and bad.

Nothing is keeping you here if you don't like it. You VOLUNTEERED to be here, and if you don't like it, you can use your computer resources for something else.

And I would like to mirror John's sentiment: If you really want it to work well, perfectly, every time, go to CA and help. Or donate money. Don't complain from behind a keyboard.

---

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I, for one, would appreciate truely objective information, and not somebody's emotives.

So get off your *ss, move to California and volunteer your time and expertise as their mouthpiece. I'm sure they could use a straight-talking PR person to 'inform the masses'.

Not possible?

Then shut up, quit pestering them and let them do their job. If they have time left over, they'll write about what's going on. If not (and you don't like it), find something else to do; b*tching is a waste of time and bandwidth.

[end soapbox mode]

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Stewie: So, is there any tread left on the tires? Or at this point would it be like throwing a hot dog down a hallway?

Fox Sunday (US) at 9PM ET/PT

We cheerleaders have never claimed that SETI / BOINC was perfect. We've all said there was room for improvement. We also see the realistic side of things. Instead of complaining about the fact there was not enough WU, we've decided to take our energies and place them into other projects. We know we don't know everything about BOINC and SETI, but we take the information given to us and make educated guesses and apply them in constructive answers to question that others have.

You, on the other hand, take your extra energy to try to make others look bad. You look for every possible excuse to use the word "cheerleader" and its associated terms in a derogatory manner. Many others like to take a little bump in the road and make it into a major catastrophe, the end of SETI / BOINC, and the end of the world!

I hope you have a nice day.

Jim

Over the last few days there was a lot of bits burned by the pom-pomers claiming that people should just shut up about the recent seti operations issues and run other projects because Seti cannot produce enough work units. That is, the seti community computes too fast and that there will not be enough data (at least right now from Arecibo) to keep the angry monster happy.

But then I read today's technical section and learned that the seti professional's know there is a bottleneck in wu production and are taking steps to fix it. The implication is that there is a lot of data to analyze. That is great! (And thanks to the seti-pro's for the good work and information!)

So I guess the pom-pomers (you know who you are!) really don't know stuff, are only guessing, and prefer to spread thick peanut butter over any difficult situation. I, for one, would appreciate truely objective information, and not somebody's emotives.

---

Besides, Seti has a few tricks up it's sleeve. Such as planning to process data from other telescopes, as well as the Astropulse project.

And doubling the sensitivity of the search which takes more time/wu.

But then I read today's technical section and learned that the seti professional's know there is a bottleneck in wu production and are taking steps to fix it. The implication is that there is a lot of data to analyze. That is great! (And thanks to the seti-pro's for the good work and information!)

I'm not sure I follow you. What does the bottleneck in WU production have to do with the amount of data there is to process? I believe people were saying it's a theoretical possibility of over reaching the output capacity of Arecibo given enough users. Not that it was imminent. But if you feel the technical news is some sort of vindication, then have fun with it! :)

And before you start saying who knows or doesn't know what, wasn't it David Anderson who foresaw the possibility of Seti running dry at times? I don't know how much more legitimate you can get than the project head...

Besides, Seti has a few tricks up it's sleeve. Such as planning to process data from other telescopes, as well as the Astropulse project.

So I guess the pom-pomers (you know who you are!) really don't know stuff, are only guessing, and prefer to spread thick peanut butter over any difficult situation. I, for one, would appreciate truely objective information, and not somebody's emotives.

I guess that means you will stop putting Seti/Boinc in a negative daylight at every opportunity you get? Or flame bait? Can you even post posts around here without some kind of flame bait embedded in them? If not, please seek out the correct threads in the Cafe.

---

Over the last few days there was a lot of bits burned by the pom-pomers claiming that people should just shut up about the recent seti operations issues and run other projects because Seti cannot produce enough work units. That is, the seti community computes too fast and that there will not be enough data (at least right now from Arecibo) to keep the angry monster happy.

But then I read today's technical section and learned that the seti professional's know there is a bottleneck in wu production and are taking steps to fix it. The implication is that there is a lot of data to analyze. That is great! (And thanks to the seti-pro's for the good work and information!)

So I guess the pom-pomers (you know who you are!) really don't know stuff, are only guessing, and prefer to spread thick peanut butter over any difficult situation. I, for one, would appreciate truely objective information, and not somebody's emotives.

---

May this Farce be with You

looks much better now

Ready to send 15,878

Thanks to the Dev Team

Greetings from Germany NRW
Ulli

Thanks for the news Mike, I missed that one.

And they are getting serious @ 07:30 they have 8477 units ready.

Andy

You are welcome.
Nice weekend.

greetz from Germany
Mike

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With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.

Thanks for the news Mike, I missed that one.

And they are getting serious @ 07:30 they have 8477 units ready.

Andy

Hi
<blockquote>
July 23, 2005 - 00:15 UTC
We are looking for bottlenecks in workunit production. We may have found one. A number of processes that read and write to the upload/download storage device (eg, splitters, the data server, validators) now do so across the ethernet switch that connects our data closet machines to the SSL LAN. This 100Mbps switch may well be overloaded.
We are moving intra-closet data intensive traffic to a separate 1Gbps switch. Today we moved the data server machine and one of the machines which does both splitting and validation over to this swtich for their upload/download traffic. Where we had been seeing NFS (Network File System) errors on both of these machines before the move to the new switch, we are not seeing errors or either of them now.
</blockquote>
Looks better now.

greetz Mike

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With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.

Hey their gaining on us at 05:10 there was 220 units ready to DL.

Andy

And, at 06:30 UTC, it's 2840. :)

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Be lucky

Neil

Hey their gaining on us at 05:10 there was 220 units ready to DL.

Andy