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Profile Ed and Harriet Griffith
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Message 137589 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 3:58:46 UTC - in response to Message 137542.  

Problem almost solved-That is great news, but it should be posted on the front page rather than hidden in the forums. I too love SETI, but I do wish they would communicate more frequently even if it is too say we are still working on the problem. I am not an expert, but I would not wait so long. Nonetheless, that is being more than fair to classic users. It is much easier to be patient if all computers are crunching for BOINC. Please do not let the migration slide any further.

Timeline... eMail sent out on Wednesday of this week. September 1, no more downloads. September 15, server transfered to BOINC as client upload (UCB download). October 1, no more uploads. October 15 server transfered to BONIC as client upload. October 16, all the VOLUNTEERS (note correct spelling) are happy. Things might still not be 100% due to the added BONIC users, however, atleast all of the resources will be dedicated to BOINC, which is obviously where the project is going.

Problem solved IMHO.

Chris

[/quote]

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Message 137593 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 4:14:34 UTC - in response to Message 137589.  

Problem almost solved-That is great news, but it should be posted on the front page rather than hidden in the forums. I too love SETI, but I do wish they would communicate more frequently even if it is too say we are still working on the problem. I am not an expert, but I would not wait so long. Nonetheless, that is being more than fair to classic users. It is much easier to be patient if all computers are crunching for BOINC. Please do not let the migration slide any further.

Timeline... eMail sent out on Wednesday of this week. September 1, no more downloads. September 15, server transfered to BOINC as client upload (UCB download). October 1, no more uploads. October 15 server transfered to BONIC as client upload. October 16, all the VOLUNTEERS (note correct spelling) are happy. Things might still not be 100% due to the added BONIC users, however, atleast all of the resources will be dedicated to BOINC, which is obviously where the project is going.

Problem solved IMHO.

Chris


[/quote]

I think you might have misunderstood.. This is my theory on what would work. Not what UCB is gonna do.

- cJ

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Message 137595 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 4:19:07 UTC - in response to Message 137574.  
Last modified: 17 Jul 2005, 4:22:20 UTC

BONIC

The correct spelling is BOINC.

If you want to correct the spelling of volunteers anyway. ;)

Berkeley Open Infrastructure Network Computing.

Not...

Berkeley Offered Nothing In Crunching.

8-D



"BOINC" is what you do to a cheap date. You may have to be an american to understand this popular meaning of the term. "Yup, I BOINC'ed her last night". Been in use since the 60's.. Check your slang dictionary..... :-)
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Message 137598 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 4:25:28 UTC - in response to Message 137595.  

Check your slang dictionary..... :-)

Check your online dictionary again. ;)



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Message 137601 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 4:31:21 UTC - in response to Message 137551.  
Last modified: 17 Jul 2005, 4:44:57 UTC

Perhaps I've been lucky, or I've stumbled on a workaround...
After having some WUs sitting in the queue for hours, I decided to take a chance and aborted the transfer. At worst I'd lose 1.5 hours worth of crunching. To my surprise, after I aborted the transfer, the WU uploaded almost immediately and it's now showing as complete, with credits pending.
Maybe it was a fluke, but perhaps it's an answer to our problems (and maybe it's a clue to the seti sys admins too)

It's more likely you looked at the wrong WU. ABORT = ABORT. It's that simple! You'll get a VALIDATE ERROR and zero credits for your troubles. Just for giggles unplug your internet connection and hit the Abort button. The WU will still disappear just as if it was sucessfully uploaded. At least it'll keep you from tying up the server with all your validate errors.
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Message 137602 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 4:32:35 UTC - in response to Message 137532.  

The classic folks have been told that there will be a "global email" to all users prior to the shutdown of Classic.

In addition there will be a popup message to those with the screensaver enabled.
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Message 137605 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 4:36:37 UTC - in response to Message 137555.  
Last modified: 17 Jul 2005, 5:16:15 UTC

I read about this "work around" already today. Although I've personally not tried it, several others were saying that it really doesn't upload it, but rather kills the WU and the result was showing as invalid. Just something to keep in mind before running headlong into this work around.

Absolutely correct! Bill Barto and myself have already shown specific WUs that were aborted and given the validate error with 0 credit. There are some participants who seem to be stuck in a state of denial about this; but the only thing they are denying themselves are their own cobblestones.
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Message 137607 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 4:37:47 UTC - in response to Message 137598.  

Check your slang dictionary..... :-)

Check your online dictionary again. ;)




Notice I said "slang" dictionary, as thats for terms that might not make it to a "standard" dictionary. I raised the "name" back in the the beta, but was considered a "non cheerleader", and was ignored!

Rah, Rah. "Boinc me baby!"


They've been joking about this on the clasic forums as of late too... But then again, as a cheerleader, you wouldn't check, would you!

Ageless, I think you're too old to get it, but I did.. I'm 47....

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Message 137611 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 4:50:34 UTC - in response to Message 137551.  

Perhaps I've been lucky, or I've stumbled on a workaround...

After having some WUs sitting in the queue for hours, I decided to take a chance and aborted the transfer. At worst I'd lose 1.5 hours worth of crunching. To my surprise, after I aborted the transfer, the WU uploaded almost immediately and it's now showing as complete, with credits pending.

Maybe it was a fluke, but perhaps it's an answer to our problems (and maybe it's a clue to the seti sys admins too)


Here we go again. This has (I thought) been cleared up. Aborting a result does just that, it throws it away. Your result will show pending until two other hosts manage to upload and report theirs. Once that happens you will have a validate error as your result is not there to compare.

Go here to see the result of aborting a result:

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=16939#137355
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Message 137614 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 4:57:25 UTC - in response to Message 137607.  

But then again, as a cheerleader, you wouldn't check, would you!

It gets confusing here.

The cheerleaders, are they for Boinc only or are they for Seti as well? If you read through this thread the cheerleaders are mentioned multiple times.

Yet since there's no problems with Boinc, but someplace at Seti (now we have been informed), what does that make the cheerleaders then? Just fans of Boinc or fans of Seti?

If the first, what are all the people on about in this thread?
If the latter, where are all the Classic crunchers?

I raised the "name" back in the the beta, but was considered a "non cheerleader", and was ignored!

Don't flatter yourself, you're being ignored by half the community here. You're only heard when they themselves have something to complain about and you can chime in.

As soon as this problem is solved, you'll fall back into oblivion as the person who will always complain about the minutest of things, making a mountain out of a molehill and ignoring people's good advice.

As for my age, I could try to explain to you what my age is, but you wouldn't understand.
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Message 137619 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 5:08:15 UTC - in response to Message 137611.  
Last modified: 17 Jul 2005, 5:43:38 UTC

I also got the VALIDATE ERROR. So obviously this scheme doesn't work and participants who "abort transfer" are just blindly throwing away their WUs. In a nutshell: DON'T DO IT!

I read about this "work around" already today. Although I've personally not tried it, several others were saying that it really doesn't upload it, but rather kills the WU and the result was showing as invalid. Just something to keep in mind before running headlong into this work around.

Absolutely correct! Bill Barto and myself have already shown specific WUs that were aborted and given the validate error with 0 credit. There are some participants who seem to be stuck in a state of denial about this; but the only thing they are denying themselves are their own cobblestones.

Here we go again. This has (I thought) been cleared up. Aborting a result does just that, it throws it away. Your result will show pending until two other hosts manage to upload and report theirs. Once that happens you will have a validate error as your result is not there to compare.

DO NOT ABORT YOUR WORK UNITS!

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Message 137624 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 5:16:10 UTC - in response to Message 137611.  

Perhaps I've been lucky, or I've stumbled on a workaround...

After having some WUs sitting in the queue for hours, I decided to take a chance and aborted the transfer. At worst I'd lose 1.5 hours worth of crunching. To my surprise, after I aborted the transfer, the WU uploaded almost immediately and it's now showing as complete, with credits pending.

Maybe it was a fluke, but perhaps it's an answer to our problems (and maybe it's a clue to the seti sys admins too)


Here we go again. This has (I thought) been cleared up. Aborting a result does just that, it throws it away. Your result will show pending until two other hosts manage to upload and report theirs. Once that happens you will have a validate error as your result is not there to compare.

Go here to see the result of aborting a result:

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=16939#137355



Bill.. This all get's back to the fact that the interface to Boinc (seti/pp/CP/etc) is just not as easy to understand as Classic. I know, I know, Paul Buck has his 700+ page document available and there are thread on what "not" to do. But the truth of it is, most won't read the wiki stuff.. It's got to be a message box that asks "are you sure you want to do this as the result will be XYZ". And note, It's more than "are your sure you want to do this" That's where the "unfriendliness" with Boinc comes in.

Put on your "I'm new to this" hat, and read messages displayed, and ask if they really tell you what's the result. This is a very common problem with software. They display the level of info needed by someone that understands the software (the folks doing the coding or people that have been testing it for some time), but often forget the folks that are new to the SW..

Igoringing this requirement is a SURE way to get new users really unhappy, and as many have pointed them at the 700 page documentation to find the answer is a way to get get them to leave...

The App must get much better at "self documenting". Instead of "do you want to do this Yes/no" it needs to be "do you want to do this Yes/no, but if you pick Yes, the result will be SOMETHING"

Heck.. I'll bet that VERY FEW new users will spend the time with the 700 page Paul Buck document. They might use it AFTER the system is running ok and they find a problem.
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Message 137629 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 5:23:49 UTC

Surely one of the ways to cut some of the communications problems is to stop sending units to those still using Boinc CC Versions before 4.19. They are causing download errors, which will upset people who crunch the unit sucessfully because there isn't enough good returns to form a quorum. I've already aborted 3 units for this reason, I check because I've crunched these before (on old computer 14hrs/unit) only for the system to say too many errors, unit abandoned.

And maybe they should rethink the upload sequence. Rather that blindly sending the results to an overloaded/faulty server, a short message be sent from the host requesting bandwidth to upload x number of units with a deadline of MM/DD/YY HH:mm
and then if the server was busy it would give preference to those near the deadline until the problem at the server is resolved.

I've got one unit that finished crunching at about 14:00 GMT on the day of the breaker replacement it's still sitting here trying to upload, under the transfers/time col. it says 02:34. I'm glad I'm not on a modem with auto-connect. But other units seem to finish and report within minutes.

Andy
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Message 137630 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 5:25:38 UTC - in response to Message 137624.  
Last modified: 17 Jul 2005, 5:26:35 UTC

Think they will ever press F1 or go to Help in the Boincmanager? For if they do, it is pointing to documented help these days.

But no, most will not even try to figure out how things work, but they will manage to come on here and say that the old was Better!

Windows 95 was better than 3.11, Windows 98 was better than 95. XP is apparently better than 2000. I'll always ask them why they want to upgrade their whole computer, hardware and software, but refuse to go with a better program to find Seti. If someone can answer that to me, I'll stop asking.

Plain. Simple.
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Message 137635 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 5:34:33 UTC - in response to Message 137630.  

Think they will ever press F1 or go to Help in the Boincmanager? For if they do, it is pointing to documented help these days.

But no, most will not even try to figure out how things work, but they will manage to come on here and say that the old was Better!

Windows 95 was better than 3.11, Windows 98 was better than 95. XP is apperently better than 2000. I'll always ask them why they want to upgrade their whole computer, hardware and software, but refuse to go with a better program to find Seti. If someone can answer that to me, I'll stop asking.

Plain. Simple.


Plain. Simple.. It should be there for the user without hitting F1 (in the message box) as there's no question about what they are saying yes/no to.

If you require "F1", most will just answer as they assume they know the result. Simple and basic user interface design.

Again, you assume the user understands enough to ask a question. That's poor design for new users. "Do you want to about this Y/N" could be a simple "Y" if you don't know what the impact would be....

How often do you change your cheerleader outfit? I'm sugesting things to IMPROVE the system for new users and you keep saying "it's not a problem!"


Rah, Rah... Bonic me... I like it!


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Message 137639 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 5:44:41 UTC - in response to Message 137624.  

Perhaps I've been lucky, or I've stumbled on a workaround...

After having some WUs sitting in the queue for hours, I decided to take a chance and aborted the transfer. At worst I'd lose 1.5 hours worth of crunching. To my surprise, after I aborted the transfer, the WU uploaded almost immediately and it's now showing as complete, with credits pending.

Maybe it was a fluke, but perhaps it's an answer to our problems (and maybe it's a clue to the seti sys admins too)


Here we go again. This has (I thought) been cleared up. Aborting a result does just that, it throws it away. Your result will show pending until two other hosts manage to upload and report theirs. Once that happens you will have a validate error as your result is not there to compare.

Go here to see the result of aborting a result:

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=16939#137355



Bill.. This all get's back to the fact that the interface to Boinc (seti/pp/CP/etc) is just not as easy to understand as Classic. I know, I know, Paul Buck has his 700+ page document available and there are thread on what "not" to do. But the truth of it is, most won't read the wiki stuff.. It's got to be a message box that asks "are you sure you want to do this as the result will be XYZ". And note, It's more than "are your sure you want to do this" That's where the "unfriendliness" with Boinc comes in.

Put on your "I'm new to this" hat, and read messages displayed, and ask if they really tell you what's the result. This is a very common problem with software. They display the level of info needed by someone that understands the software (the folks doing the coding or people that have been testing it for some time), but often forget the folks that are new to the SW..

Igoringing this requirement is a SURE way to get new users really unhappy, and as many have pointed them at the 700 page documentation to find the answer is a way to get get them to leave...

The App must get much better at "self documenting". Instead of "do you want to do this Yes/no" it needs to be "do you want to do this Yes/no, but if you pick Yes, the result will be SOMETHING"

Heck.. I'll bet that VERY FEW new users will spend the time with the 700 page Paul Buck document. They might use it AFTER the system is running ok and they find a problem.


When I first saw the "abort transfer" button I knew that it couldn't be anything good, sounded really bad. I just stayed away from it. If you put the mouse cursor over the button you get this information bubble:

"Click "Abort Transfer" to delete the file from the transfer queue. This will prevent you from being granted credit for this result."

That statement doesn't leave much room for interpretation. I guess the problem is that people just don' read it or want to believe it. Misfit and I, being the curious types, tried it to see what would happen. I wanted to see what kind of error message would come up. We both reported back on what happened. I havn't seen anyone else come back and say it doesn't work. Including the first person to bring it up who supposedly did it to 26 results.

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Message 137640 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 5:48:51 UTC - in response to Message 137639.  

That statement doesn't leave much room for interpretation. I guess the problem is that people just don' read it or want to believe it. Misfit and I, being the curious types, tried it to see what would happen. I wanted to see what kind of error message would come up. We both reported back on what happened. I havn't seen anyone else come back and say it doesn't work. Including the first person to bring it up who supposedly did it to 26 results.

And we did it the intelligent way by only aborting ONE unit as an experiment. Not the entire lot as those who have been fooled into this scheme. The experiment failed. But even with the proof in the pudding some still wont believe it. I expect those are the ones who will convince themselves they are still uploading Classic units long after that project is dead.
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Message 137642 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 5:52:46 UTC - in response to Message 137635.  

I could do without you putting words in my mouth.

I bet you never read the EULA that you are pressing Yes/No to. I never read it. 99% of the people out there don't read it. So you want a whole installation program that first leads you through what the software does, before you can install it? Who in his right mind will install that? If a skip button is added, what do you think people will choose?

Adding a button on the installer that may go to a website that explains what Boinc does, will most probably be ignored. Just as the EULA is ignored.

Take a look around any games/programs forums and see how many people neglect to read the readme text where things are explained. before you bring up that splendid idea.

So go ahead and improve some more, prefesser.
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Message 137666 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 9:17:50 UTC - in response to Message 137642.  


Good morning everyone, ive just read this whole thread to much amusement, who FORCED people to be here and why look for alien lifeforms on other planets when we obviously have so many now right HERE ;) . You guys voluntered right ?????? , are we in a life and death situation here ??? , will my arms fall off or my computer blow up if i CANT upload these *few* seti wu`s. I really really hope not and if they dont happen life will still be as sweet as it is now(as a human).Like I said GOOD morning everyone.

Peace :)
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Message 137672 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 9:41:47 UTC

The point is we donate our CPU time voluntarily to do the work that Seti asks of us volunteers, yet Seti is always down, and I mean down when compared to the other Boinc applications. They may have problems once in a while, but not constantly as Seti does. I am about to drop Seti and just do the work of the other Boinc projects


To the person, who pretty much posted that that the world does not end if they cannot upload a few Seti Wu's, I would like to say to you that I hope we don't make contact with alien life anytime soon as it would probaly bore you.


You too, Good Morning!
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