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Profile Paul D. Buck
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Message 137800 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 17:15:12 UTC - in response to Message 137793.  

Well Paul again you argue your case well , you support it. For my part I think we are very much in agreement; with the exception of classic perhaps. I will think about the modelling but time is against me....but I will think about it.

All anyone can ask. Who knows, you may start it an learn all about it and improve your math skills.

As for this thread having no merit......well may I disagree.

I hope all who read here see that a marker has been set down...a line in the sand.....that will encourage people to speak up with ideas and views and know they will not be slammed. A marker that will encourage people to articulate what they feel is wrong and how that might corrected AND what is right and give due credit. I think it serves a good purpose to get this in the open and serve notice that debate is important and valuable. So......glad the breakfast was good!

Nancy is a fantastic cook, one of the reasons I am, um, thin challenged ...

With regard to the rest, I can only hope. I don't have to agree with you, or your position. But I do understand why you see it the way you do.

I did put a short note on the dev mailing list ... so ... it is back to the project to make the call ...
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Message 137813 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 17:59:00 UTC - in response to Message 137800.  
Last modified: 17 Jul 2005, 18:00:29 UTC

Well Paul again you argue your case well , you support it. For my part I think we are very much in agreement; with the exception of classic perhaps. I will think about the modelling but time is against me....but I will think about it.

All anyone can ask. Who knows, you may start it an learn all about it and improve your math skills.

As for this thread having no merit......well may I disagree.

I hope all who read here see that a marker has been set down...a line in the sand.....that will encourage people to speak up with ideas and views and know they will not be slammed. A marker that will encourage people to articulate what they feel is wrong and how that might corrected AND what is right and give due credit. I think it serves a good purpose to get this in the open and serve notice that debate is important and valuable. So......glad the breakfast was good!

Nancy is a fantastic cook, one of the reasons I am, um, thin challenged ...

With regard to the rest, I can only hope. I don't have to agree with you, or your position. But I do understand why you see it the way you do.

I did put a short note on the dev mailing list ... so ... it is back to the project to make the call ...


Cool...... thanks.

All in the spirit of - "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Voltaire

Regards
Ian


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Message 137821 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 18:23:13 UTC - in response to Message 137793.  
Last modified: 17 Jul 2005, 18:26:31 UTC

...I will think about the modelling but time is against me....but I will think about it.

If you hadn't noticed, we are the model! We are also very much part of the Boinc experiment and development.

Sorry, but sometimes the real world can simulate reality in real time and much more accurately than any artificial model. No spare monkeys (ooops undergrads) required ;)

I think it all comes down to overhyped expectations and a lack of clear feedback as always. Add a little heat and let the frustrations rise...

OK, so we're likely part of a social engineering project also! ;P

If cheer leader translates into passion then fine...

Well meaning or well directed passion sounds good ;)

I hope all who read here see that a marker has been set down...a line in the sand.....that will encourage people to speak up with ideas and views and know they will not be slammed. A marker that will encourage people to articulate what they feel is wrong and how that might corrected AND what is right and give due credit. I think it serves a good purpose to get this in the open and serve notice that debate is important and valuable. So...

A good example how a flamefest should be conducted! (All very British :) )

Meanwhile, my uploads and downloads are trickling through for s@h. No doubt they'll find the latest glitch or bottleneck and the system will be reshuffled some more. Should be good food for thought for getting the system to be yet more robust. All good science.

Perhaps start a new thread to guess what the latest hiccup is?...

Regards,
Martin
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Message 137836 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 18:40:53 UTC

Something just popped to my mind again:
An old article from the Planetary Society, about bandwidth problems. It's only 3 years old, but some seem to have forgotten this.
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Message 137837 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 18:41:20 UTC - in response to Message 137821.  

...I will think about the modelling but time is against me....but I will think about it.

If you hadn't noticed, we are the model! We are also very much part of the Boinc experiment and development.

Sorry, but sometimes the real world can simulate reality in real time and much more accurately than any artificial model. No spare monkeys (ooops undergrads) required ;)

I think it all comes down to overhyped expectations and a lack of clear feedback as always. Add a little heat and let the frustrations rise...

OK, so we're likely part of a social engineering project also! ;P

If cheer leader translates into passion then fine...

Well meaning or well directed passion sounds good ;)

I hope all who read here see that a marker has been set down...a line in the sand.....that will encourage people to speak up with ideas and views and know they will not be slammed. A marker that will encourage people to articulate what they feel is wrong and how that might corrected AND what is right and give due credit. I think it serves a good purpose to get this in the open and serve notice that debate is important and valuable. So...

A good example how a flamefest should be conducted! (All very British :) )

Meanwhile, my uploads and downloads are trickling through for s@h. No doubt they'll find the latest glitch or bottleneck and the system will be reshuffled some more. Should be good food for thought for getting the system to be yet more robust. All good science.

Perhaps start a new thread to guess what the latest hiccup is?...

Regards,
Martin


LOL thanks for bringing me back down to earth. I've had a funny few days tbh....but.....to BE the model is most worrying.

Two pints...I mean points......

Is computing a science?......or art>.....or engineering?......worth a thread in its own right for sure.

Second.....damn its gone!

l8r!
Regards
Ian


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Message 137848 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 18:50:55 UTC - in response to Message 137837.  
Last modified: 17 Jul 2005, 18:52:37 UTC

LOL thanks for bringing me back down to earth. I've had a funny few days tbh....but.....to BE the model is most worrying.

I think most of the UK has! Some of my conversations with some people have been very strange (in a positive sense) since last week...

Watch out for the white mice!!! (a la Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy :) )

Two pints...I mean points......

Yep, I'll be doing that later. Just a bit more engineering to do first... (OK, 4 or 6 holes to be drilled next, a compression joint, and then play.)

Is computing a science?......or art>.....or engineering?......worth a thread in its own right for sure.

Phew! Out the fire and into the furnace!...

I studied Computer Engineering (Computer Science + Electronics + Maths :( )

Second.....damn its gone!

Was that a quantum thought?! :P


Enjoy the heat!

Cheers,
Martin

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Message 137852 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 18:57:02 UTC

OMG White Mice....I remember that. Hey they making a film of that I hear!

I think I will start that thread on computing!

Have a decent drink......proper beer I hope from a hand pump!

Regards

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Message 137863 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 19:12:53 UTC - in response to Message 137852.  

OMG White Mice....I remember that. Hey they making a film of that I hear!

Which planet are you on? :O

That got made, been seen, soon to be on DVD!

(Rather good also. Shame it and the humour had to be dumbed down for the Amerikans :(

Cheers,
Martin

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Message 137866 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 19:20:04 UTC - in response to Message 137863.  
Last modified: 17 Jul 2005, 19:20:35 UTC

OMG White Mice....I remember that. Hey they making a film of that I hear!

Which planet are you on? :O

That got made, been seen, soon to be on DVD!

(Rather good also. Shame it and the humour had to be dumbed down for the Amerikans :(

Cheers,
Martin


Damn.
I retired recently and have had my mind on others things. I miss Londona lot, I miss my old buddies and I also miss new movies apparantly....well did War of the Worlds. Well I must get that DVD.......damn how one slows down with age lol!. Dumbed down......heh......its different humour and needs presenting more slowly perhaps.......but dumbing down !!!!

l8r


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Message 137893 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 19:56:10 UTC - in response to Message 137863.  
Last modified: 17 Jul 2005, 19:57:19 UTC

OMG White Mice....I remember that. Hey they making a film of that I hear!

Which planet are you on? :O

That got made, been seen, soon to be on DVD!

(Rather good also. Shame it and the humour had to be dumbed down for the Amerikans :(

Cheers,
Martin

Must have been a flop. I never even saw advertisments for it. From: a "dumb AmeriKan". >:-(

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Message 137898 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 20:04:33 UTC - in response to Message 137866.  

....
....
Damn.
....
Dumbed down......heh......its different humour and needs presenting more slowly perhaps.......but dumbing down !!!!

Such a screwed up attitude.... From reading your posts, I suggest looking into a mirror much more often....


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Message 137902 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 20:15:12 UTC - in response to Message 137898.  

....
....
Damn.
....
Dumbed down......heh......its different humour and needs presenting more slowly perhaps.......but dumbing down !!!!

Such a screwed up attitude.... From reading your posts, I suggest looking into a mirror much more often....

(In a Homer Simpson voice, with special effects of slap on forehead)
Duh, missed that one!

(Normal voice and no specials)
Guess you missed that humour also.

;P

BTW: Sorry, no mirrors down here. They break too easily...
(Mirror, mirror, On the wall, Who is... ;) )

Cheers,
Martin

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Message 137910 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 20:43:03 UTC - in response to Message 137555.  
Last modified: 17 Jul 2005, 21:04:33 UTC

I read about this "work around" already today. Although I've personally not tried it, several others were saying that it really doesn't upload it, but rather kills the WU and the result was showing as invalid.

Just something to keep in mind before running headlong into this work around.

Jim

Perhaps I've been lucky, or I've stumbled on a workaround...

After having some WUs sitting in the queue for hours, I decided to take a chance and aborted the transfer. At worst I'd lose 1.5 hours worth of crunching. To my surprise, after I cancelled te transfer, it uploaded almost immediately and it's now showing as complete, with credits pending.

Maybe it was a fluke, but perhaps it's an answer to our problems (and maybe it's a clue to the seti sys admins too)



OK, so I throw away my three results. The intersesting part is that those results have been sitting there for so many days (since July 13!) and that they will expire soon - in a few hours. Lost is lost! No matter what happens with validation. The problem is that the uploads work fine for results finished today or yesterday, but uploads for results finished july 13 or july 14 do not work. Is that a client problem? Or a uploader problem? Because I think that the uploader or client should give higher priority to those results which are close to expiration rather than to those who will expire in a few days!
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Message 137945 - Posted: 17 Jul 2005, 22:16:54 UTC

Many wu are passing the deadline and we can't upload!

I hope that tomorrow they find a solution for this problem!

Anyway, if they need more hardware and SUN can't provide them, they can write in homepage a news for donation.....

my 2 cent....bye....
GHz
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Message 137986 - Posted: 18 Jul 2005, 0:38:41 UTC - in response to Message 137800.  
Last modified: 18 Jul 2005, 0:41:07 UTC

Paul,

I did put a short note on the dev mailing list ... so ... it is back to the project to make the call ...

Great, thanks! :)

I was wondering... what if they set up a frontend server to handle the UL/DL queue(s)... and perhaps issue tokens...? Maybe it's time to put "gates" into service again - even if he has a short memory! LOL ;)

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Message 137993 - Posted: 18 Jul 2005, 0:55:58 UTC

To the Boinc detractors: Who said there's anything wrong with cheerleaders?

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Message 137994 - Posted: 18 Jul 2005, 0:56:44 UTC - in response to Message 137705.  

They can and will be returned for credit (as long as they don't go past the deadline.)

I've been watching my upload ques for the past few days. They fill up with WU's to upload, then they empty, then fill up then empty.

I know the WU's are going through, just be patient.

Jim

"July 15, 2005
The data server is continuing to drop connections, which is very unusual this long after an outage. We are working to figure out why."
It is the 17th and I am losing wu's due to the delays and drops. It had been this way most of the week. It is a shame! What is the point of getting new units if the done ones cannot be returned for credit? Busy work? Waste of electricity?

Nick


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Message 138008 - Posted: 18 Jul 2005, 1:15:09 UTC - in response to Message 137715.  

BOINC is a work in progress. The Dev team has had to prioritize the problems. They are working on the higher priority problems. This means they maybe working on problems that are not visible to us the end users.

I've said this elsewhere, but we as end users do not have all the information about what goes on at SETI and BOINC. Why have they not closed classic? I don't know, but I'm sure the Dev team knows why they haven't. Just because we cannot understand why classic is still running does not mean they should close it today. We do not have enough information to make an educated assessment of the situation.

Why is there not a separate UL / DL server? One of the basic principles of economics is resources are limited. Sure, they could separate the UL and DL servers to two different machines, but what would they have to shut down or what would suffer as a result? Are you willing to "pay the price" for this move?

Documentation... Goes back to prioritizing. You and I may think that documentation should be #1, but if documentation is put at #1, what will have to be moved to #2? If they have to take the time to write and re-write the documentation then who will be available to work on the bugs?

Model -- Who says there isn't a model? Perhaps there is a model drawn on Dr. Anderson's dry erase board in his office. Perhaps he has big arrows pointing to the bottlenecks and the problem areas. Perhaps those arrows have numbers beside them showing where they are on the priority list.

People getting disenchanted -- People as a whole are never going to be satisfied. This project will lose some people and it will gain some people. However, I don't see a mass exodus from BOINC. Quite the opposite actually. As more and more projects turn to the BOINC architecture, BOINC will gain a larger user base.

Hardware / software testing -- So, I guess, you want everything to work perfectly the first time around. I would wager money that the Dev team would love to have everything work perfectly the first time around. If it worked the first time, then they could go home for supper, spend time with the wife and kids, and sleep peacefully at night. Even if it worked perfectly the first time, people would still complain.

I'm not sure what people are expecting from the dev team. Give them some time and some positive support. It will go a long way.

Jim

ML1 you are right for sure....I still use MS OSs and Linux...they get me where I need to be but it can be hard work for sure and $$$ with MS.

I also agree BOINC is the right approach. I still question though (yes....endlessly) -

UCB's means of communicating problems to us and how they will be fixed. I feel we are left hanging in mid air for days on end.

I still cannot understand why it has taken so long to move classic off and re-deploy the hardware for the premier system - boinc. This would be so useful right now.

I still don't understand why there is not a seperate UL/DL server given the work it has to get through - especially after down time periods.

There needs to be better documentation for folk to refer to on how it works. Wiki is a start so well done Paul.

I still think a model of the whole system would be appropriate to highlight weaknesses and to better identify the efftects of points of failure; thus improving the ruggedness of the system.

I still believe the overall availability of the entire system is lower than it should be hence reliability can be considered poor.

I understand the design goals of doing other projects - some people only want seti.

I understand the grant given to this work was commended for its interesting ways of achieving good user engagement - I read the report - but I feel these (which included this forum, credits, competition and teams) are being neglected somewhat and users are becoming disenchanted. Disengagement threatens!

I think hardware and software testing (including integration testing) is the poor relation. This forum is littered with examples of new core clients etc not working. I have to ask how is the testing conducted? Do they need a bigger audience? More time invested here is always worth while in my experience.

I believe the impact of classic coming across is unknown. I have asked them to estimate it but I doubt this has happened. Right now I think the few that have migrated add dirctly to long recovery times. It WILL get worse. There must be a plan including some excellent PR.


To address the High Priest / Priestesses & Gurus (aka Cheer Leaders) criticisms of the above or anything else I say:

- This is everyone's forum.....you do not own it.
- All are free to express their views and should not be the subject of petty harrassment and rubbishing.
- Your view is a view....make it...its no better than anyone else's and no worse........don't deprecate other peoples' views.





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Message 138016 - Posted: 18 Jul 2005, 1:26:52 UTC

Well said Jim.

I just waited 3 1/2 minutes for this box to load so I could reply. Suggestion to the Author of this thread. You have the power to edit the title of this thread at your fancy. Might I suggest that you make this topic a bit more "Dial up" friendly. You can do this by making a post explaining why you are closing this thread, and maybe direct people to a New thread you start. You might label it "Upload (2), or Upload II". After you make the post then go back and edit your post. You will see the Title in a box, just edit the box to include "CLOSED" at the front and back. Submit the edit. Then Create the new thread. Thank you for your consideration

tony
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Message 138061 - Posted: 18 Jul 2005, 2:48:45 UTC

I second the idea of closing this thread and making a new one to explain the difficulties. The signal/noise ratio in this one is asymptotically approaching zero.
<a href="http://www.davidcthompson.com">David Thompson</a>, Intellectual Property Law

<a href="http://www.stanford.edu/group/slaps/">Stanford Law and Policy Society</a>
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