no work from project AGAIN!!!

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Pathogen

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Message 11504 - Posted: 22 Jul 2004, 20:42:36 UTC - in response to Message 11476.  
Last modified: 23 Jul 2004, 20:20:12 UTC

>Keeping the volunteers informed is not only not the idea of distributed computing, it's barely even a >requisite. It is nice, and a wise thing to do.
***
Respectfully, I have to disagree with you here. If the point of distributed computing is to break larger problems into smaller problems that can then be farmed out for solution to thousands of clients (and it is), then it is not only "wise" or "nice" for the organization desiring the processing power of these clients to keep those individuals informed, it is a MAJOR requirement. People who are uninfomed about status tend to become angry and drop off (as we've seen here), passing their bad experiences on to their friends and acquaintences. This reduces the pool of availible CPUs. Projects like Seti are not about getting 1,000 or 10,000 or even 100,000 computers working for them. They are about getting as many people as possible to crunch numbers for them. Period. Treating people like the unfortunate baggage that must be tolerated in order to get someone's CPU time is rude, and short-sighted. Statements like, "if you don't like it, then leave" will be the death knell for Seti. A lot of talk is made here that no one is "forcing" people to crunch numbers here. True. But then again, no one is forcing developers to code for Seti either. The simple fact of the matter is, Seti is a symbiotic relationship of unequal partners. Seti needs number crunchers more than number crunchers need Seti.

> Rom for one
> has been doing that far more than I think he really has too. I so amazed to
> see someone on the Dev Team actually posting I almost didn't believe it. So
> back off and give it a rest.
***
No arguements with that... except this. Virtually NONE of the developers should be responding here. Instead, their insights should be collated and added to a status page, one that actually contains useful information instead of the often vague and rarely updated (or after the fact) "News" section currently being used. Having a central place for this sort of information would stop a lot of the bickering going on here as well as free developers up for more important things, like coding. Getting involved in personal spats on a message board is not effective utilization of their talents. Furthermore, if everyone knew there was a single place to look, we woudn't have the same questions asked over and over, anmosity would diminish and it would not take so long to find the answer to something that is wrong at the project level. As it stands now, you have to wade through a lot of crap on these boards to find out whether your problem is local to your machine or at the project level.
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Profile Christopher Hauber
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Message 11507 - Posted: 22 Jul 2004, 20:47:50 UTC - in response to Message 11494.  

Once you've verified the horse is dead, there is no sense in continuing to beat it.

You are beating at least two dead horses right now.

> After an 8 hour workday.
>
> SETI classic: 2 WU downloads, 1.6 completed
>
> BOINC: 0 downloads, 0 completed
>
> So what if I'm re-crunching data. Down here we call that verifing
> results......and "busy" work is better than no work at all.

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Message 11570 - Posted: 23 Jul 2004, 21:11:21 UTC - in response to Message 11491.  


> I am reason. That is who I am, telling you to grow up. Grow up and shut up
> while you're at it.
>
> (Of course you won't shut up, because now I've wounded your precious male
> online ego pride. Prattle away.)
>
>

You seem to be a very disillusioned person, I cannot call you young because I do not know you. You seem to enjoy trying to inflame people into joining your petty insults, they will not work with me because I have better uses for my time.
Enjoy your pathetic existance troll.
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Message 11574 - Posted: 23 Jul 2004, 21:19:11 UTC - in response to Message 11570.  

Yet you have plenty of time to whine about not having workunits on a newly released distributed computing platform being powered by machines not really designed for the load they are get because the better hardware is wrapped up in an older version that when operating at full capacity will not provide enough workunits to fill the demand (at least eventually that will be the case and sling petty insults back. Some "better" use of time...

Chris

> You seem to be a very disillusioned person, I cannot call you young because I
> do not know you. You seem to enjoy trying to inflame people into joining your
> petty insults, they will not work with me because I have better uses for my
> time.
> Enjoy your pathetic existance troll.
>
>
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Message 11575 - Posted: 23 Jul 2004, 21:19:22 UTC - in response to Message 11507.  

Let me see if I understand something correctly. We are DONATING our services to SETIBOINC or SETIClassic we are not getting paid to complete work units. Essentially we are doing charity work. When I volunteer to do charity work I don't get pissy and act childish when the charity has to cancel an event.

So maybe someone can explain why all this childish behavior is occuring - other than the fact that too many people are here not for the good of the project but for bragging rights or some other reason. Let's keep our focus on the big picture and show some maturity and maybe find something else to do for a while instead of obsessing about the problems here.

This is certainly one of largest computing projects undertaken (except maybe the IRS systems and we know how well they are going) so expecting it to run flawlessy out of the box is foolish. The folks at SETI are busting their butts to get this thing up and running and to keep us informed (look at all the info being provided on the home page vs on SETIClassic) so cut them some slack - I am sure they are not being highly compensated for this.


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Message 11592 - Posted: 23 Jul 2004, 21:42:22 UTC - in response to Message 11570.  


> Enjoy your pathetic existance troll.


Aww, that's sweet. Thanks for thinking about me cutie ;)
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Message 11594 - Posted: 23 Jul 2004, 21:47:12 UTC - in response to Message 11504.  

They HAVE been keeping us informed. I don't know what more you want from them. I don't really know of a time that Classic EVER kept us even half as updated as we are on here. And it has been down plenty of times. When the only "MAJOR" problems are either units not being split fast enough or the schedulers aren't responding, you can bet that they are working on it. Why? Because they have a vested interest in the research. When things aren't happening like they should, they don't get their research done. They have something to lose. We don't. Period. And I do not think for one second that the SETI team has been treating us like "baggage." They are doing their best to get things set so that their project works smoothly. All we can do is let them send us data when they have it. The less data they get sent out, the less they get done, and we are no better or worse off than before. Point is, since we the users aren't affected either way by this, stop crying about it and let things happen when they happen.

Are you daft? You can't post a problem before you have it. You can't even post a problem when you do have it until you figure out what it is. That is exactly what they have been doing. On the news page. Rom has just been nice enough to come on the boards and answer specifics that a lot of people just don't have, as well as put to rest a lot of speculation. And being the only one to ever post somewhat consistantly, that seems to more or less satisfy "virtually none." A lot of information is centrally located. Pascall posts links to help guides on every one of his posts. People needing help can easily find it, many just choose not to for some reason. Yes it isn't the place to have these little spats that keep happening. That's what all the garbage you have to scroll through is; people making stupid, irrational, ignorant comments and demands and bickering about things. The animosity isn't from repeated questions. It's from people's inability to accept things for what they are. They act as if they have been cheated and have this bizzarre sense of entitlement as if their lives were at stake or something.

Chris

> Respectfully, I have to disagree with you here. If the point of distributed
> computing is to break larger problems into smaller problems that can then be
> farmed out for solution to thousands of clients (and it is), then it is not
> only "wise" or "nice" for the organization desiring the processing power of
> these clients to keep those individuals informed, it is a MAJOR requirement.
> People who are uninfomed about status tend to become angry and drop off (as
> we've seen here), passing their bad experiences on to their friends and
> acquaintences. This reduces the pool of availible CPUs. Projects like Seti are
> not about getting 1,000 or 10,000 or even 100,000 computers working for them.
> They are about getting as many people as possible to crunch numbers for them.
> Period. Treating people like the unfortunate baggage that must be tolerated in
> order to get someone's CPU time is rude, and short-sighted. Statements like,
> "if you don't like it, then leave" will be the death knell for Seti. A lot of
> talk is made here that no one is "forcing" people to crunch numbers here.
> True. But then again, no one is forcing developers to code for Seti either.
> The simple fact of the matter is, Seti is a symbiotic relationship of unequal
> partners. Seti needs number crunchers more than number crunchers need Seti.
>

> No arguements with that... except this. Virtually NONE of the developers
> should be responding here. Instead, their insights should be collated and
> added to a status page, one that actually contains useful information instead
> of the often vague and rarely updated (or after the fact) "News" section
> currently being used. Having a central place for this sort of information
> would stop a lot of the bickering going on here as well as free developers up
> for more important things, like coding. Getting involved in personal spats on
> a message board is not effective utilization of their talents. Furthermore, if
> everyone knew there was a single place to look, we woudn't have the same
> questions asked over and over, anmosity would diminish and it would not take
> so long to find the answer to something that is wrong at the project level. As
> it stands now, you have to wade through a lot of crap on these boards to find
> out whether your problem is local to your machine or at the project level.
>
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Message 11607 - Posted: 23 Jul 2004, 22:31:56 UTC

Plenty of work now! Everybody happy?

---

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Pathogen

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Message 11619 - Posted: 23 Jul 2004, 22:50:44 UTC - in response to Message 11594.  

> They HAVE been keeping us informed. I don't know what more you want from them.
***
Oh, simple things like if they are taking the project down for a day for planned maintence, posting the expected time frame of that maintenence. Providing a Problem FAQ to say, "If you see this error, it is because we are having this problem." Providing MORE updates. Sometimes they go a couple of days without saying anything. I saw yesterday they did two posts. Wow! With as many problems as they are obviously having at this point, I would say multiple updates PER DAY are needed, even if they just say, "Same status as above." They should also include the time the update was posted. In essence, they should provide something similar to what Earthlink does:
http://netstatus.earthlink.net/netstatus/netstatus.aspx

Naturally, it does not need to be anwhere as detailed as that but what is currently being done is insufficient.

> I don't really know of a time that Classic EVER kept us even half as updated
> as we are on here. And it has been down plenty of times.
***
I think Classic did just as well as the Boinc version... poorly.

> When the only "MAJOR"
> problems are either units not being split fast enough or the schedulers aren't
> responding, you can bet that they are working on it.
***
If we could always assume that people are working on the correct problems at the correct time, we would never need to get the status of anything. In fact, that word probably would not have been invented.

> Why? Because they have a
> vested interest in the research. When things aren't happening like they
> should, they don't get their research done. They have something to lose. We
> don't.
***
I never said Seti had nothing to lose by being down. Please point to where I did.

> And I do not think for one second that the SETI team has been
> treating us like "baggage." They are doing their best to get things set so
> that their project works smoothly.
***
The comment was directed more to rabid "Seti can do no wrong" defenders but I absolutely DO NOT feel Seti has done a good job with COMMUNICATION.

> Point is, since we the users aren't
> affected either way by this, stop crying about it and let things happen when
> they happen.
***
First, I wasn't "crying" about it. Second. It is called expressing an opinion. If you don't like it- TOUGH.

> Are you daft?
***
I started off trying to be civil with you but I can from your above comments and this "daft" comment that probably is not an option.

> You can't post a problem before you have it. You can't even post
> a problem when you do have it until you figure out what it is.
***
Oh please! I'm a software developer. You certainly are aware of potential problems with the app and often have an idea what is causing a particular problem.

> Rom has just been nice enough to
> come on the boards and answer specifics that a lot of people just don't have,
> as well as put to rest a lot of speculation.
***
While it is nice, instead, he should be posting that on a central status page easy for everyone to find, not posting back to individual posters.


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Message 11640 - Posted: 23 Jul 2004, 23:38:00 UTC - in response to Message 11619.  

Ok first, now that there are workunits, maybe we can put an end to this thread which has seen way too much bickering.

Second, not everything I have posted necessarily applies to the person I am responding to because sometimes I like to combine things.

The rest I have to say in reply to you specifically I will do on a "paragraph item" basis..

> Oh, simple things like if they are taking the project down for a day for
> planned maintence, posting the expected time frame of that maintenence.
> Providing a Problem FAQ to say, "If you see this error, it is because we are
> having this problem." Providing MORE updates. Sometimes they go a couple of
> days without saying anything. I saw yesterday they did two posts. Wow! With as
> many problems as they are obviously having at this point, I would say multiple
> updates PER DAY are needed, even if they just say, "Same status as above."
> They should also include the time the update was posted. In essence, they
> should provide something similar to what Earthlink does:
> http://netstatus.earthlink.net/netstatus/netstatus.aspx
>
> Naturally, it does not need to be anwhere as detailed as that but what is
> currently being done is insufficient.

I think that adding more updates gets to the point where they are spending more time providing updates than they need to be. They provide enough to let us know what is going on. And at the moment, there doesn't seem to be much "planned" maintnance. It just happens because they discover something that needs to be fixed quickly. When they do plan to be down or stay down, they post it and do a pretty good job of that. The two posts were more than sufficient, as they explained the problem briefly and told their response. HOWEVER, I have posted another message asking for a form of automatic updating when and if feasible because I do think it would be nice to find out that there is a problem and have some idea of what it is until clarification can be given. You can search my posts and read it if you want.

> I think Classic did just as well as the Boinc version... poorly.

I don't think Classic did poorly. It had some downtime, but was one of the most reliable solid programs I've ever run, and it was free. BOINC works too, but it is essentially still beta, a public release beta if you will.

> If we could always assume that people are working on the correct problems at
> the correct time, we would never need to get the status of anything. In fact,
> that word probably would not have been invented.

I think I've already basically replied to this above. No sense repeating it again.

> I never said Seti had nothing to lose by being down. Please point to where I
> did.

No. This comes from the implication (largely by others) that SETI isn't doing their jobs and isn't fixing anything and so forth. It is just to point out that they DO have something to lose and it isn't really OUR problem if things aren't done. It isn't OUR project so WE don't have anything to lose. Many people take it as a personal insult that not everything works properly yet.

> The comment was directed more to rabid "Seti can do no wrong" defenders but I
> absolutely DO NOT feel Seti has done a good job with COMMUNICATION.

Well difference of opinion. I don't see why we need to know everything that happens. I don't see why we need to know anymore about the outages while they are happening than we already do. More thorough explanations are great after the fact though when the problem at hand no longer requires intent focus.

> First, I wasn't "crying" about it. Second. It is called expressing an opinion.

No, but others have been. Again, not necessarily directed at you.

> I started off trying to be civil with you but I can from your above comments
> and this "daft" comment that probably is not an option.

Civility is great. And as far as I can tell, out of pretty much everyone who has been complaing about things, you have been one of the most civil so I am sorry for digging into you so badly, but constant irritation from the ignorance that abounds from some of the people posting on here can do that.

> Oh please! I'm a software developer. You certainly are aware of potential
> problems with the app and often have an idea what is causing a particular
> problem.

I've done a small amount of simple programming. I was very good at what I did. Sometimes I had an idea of what might work and what might. Often I did not. And sometimes the problem was just not where I expected at all. Those were just relatively small programs. I can only imagine the difficulties of such a large scale multicomponent system such as the BOINC SETI project. When things go wrong and start degrading, you react to the problem, not go announce it to everyone and then work on it. Maybe sometime in dealing with it someone can go explain what's going on if it's taking a while. But otherwise the primary focus should be on correcting the problem. Reporting to us should only be a secondary agenda at that point.

> While it is nice, instead, he should be posting that on a central status page
> easy for everyone to find, not posting back to individual posters.

He does a lot of the posting on the main page. There are help files. There are clear instructions. There are lots of users who help on the userboards. And I am sure you noticed that this forum has more activity and the bulk of the users go through here to get information and help, and that to me, makes this a fairly good central place for him to post. Additionally, as a Developer a lot of what he has to say can be a bit more technical than most of the people who are struggling need/want/can understand, and most of the people here know what is going on and can translate for others having trouble on this and other forums.

Chris
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Message 11644 - Posted: 23 Jul 2004, 23:49:17 UTC

Lets give them a chance to see if all the downtime fixed the problems




<a> [/url]
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Message 11658 - Posted: 24 Jul 2004, 0:07:56 UTC
Last modified: 24 Jul 2004, 0:09:53 UTC

i have getting enought Work wort the next Days

http://home.teleos-web.de/ubrinkschmidt/test/p4-6.JPG

Picture about 250 kb


Greetings from Germany NRW
Ulli [/url]
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Message 11659 - Posted: 24 Jul 2004, 0:14:50 UTC - in response to Message 11658.  

that should hold you for a while :)

[url=http://setiweb.ssl.berkeley.edu/team_display.php?teamid=55755]
>
>
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Message 11676 - Posted: 24 Jul 2004, 1:06:26 UTC
Last modified: 24 Jul 2004, 1:11:38 UTC

Here's how I see it.
Seti@Home (Classic) has over 5,000,000 users. If 1% (percent)
come over to BIONC then that's 50,000 PCs waiting for work every
2 to 5 hours. Given the fact that the guys at Berkeley have had
a lot problems with equipment, bugs in the software and down time at the observatory and the pressure being applied by the users, I think
the Seti Team at Berkeley has done a fantastic job. I wouldn't
want to be in their shoes. Guys, cut them some slack.

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Message 11677 - Posted: 24 Jul 2004, 1:07:38 UTC

Here's how I see it.
Seti@Home (Classic) has over 5,000,000 users. If 1% (percent)
come over to BIONC then that's 50,000 PCs waiting for work every
2 to 5 hours. Given the fact that the guys at Berkeley have had
a lot problems with equipment, bugs in the software and down time at the observatory and the pressure being applied by the users, I think
the Seti Team at Berkeley has done a fantastic job. I wouldn't
want to be in their shoes. Guys, cut them some slack.

If some of you really are impatient and want to heat up your processors
that bad, Stanford U. could use some help with the protien project.


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Message 11678 - Posted: 24 Jul 2004, 1:08:03 UTC
Last modified: 24 Jul 2004, 1:18:21 UTC

Now that I got that off my chest, I have a question.
Does anyone know how to check the status of pending
credits? Those WUs that have been reported but not
yet credited? I know I saw a thread on this subject but I'll be
darned if I can find it.
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Message 11681 - Posted: 24 Jul 2004, 1:16:43 UTC - in response to Message 11678.  

> Here's how I see it.
> Seti@Home (Classic) has over 5,000,000 users. If 1% (percent)
> come over to BIONC then that's 50,000 PCs waiting for work every
> 2 to 5 hours. Given the fact that the guys at Berkeley have had
> a lot problems with equipment, bugs in the software and down time at the
> observatory and the pressure being applied by the users, I think
> the Seti Team at Berkeley has done a fantastic job. I wouldn't
> want to be in their shoes. Guys, cut them some slack.
>
> If some of you really are impatient and want to heat up your processors
> that bad, Stanford U. could use some help with the protien project.
>
>
>
> Don. Derry NH USA
>
Good post Kilted One..........

I believe the total active base is closer to 500,000..

The below is posted for those that want more info, all I can say is that you do not read the info you have...........

THis is a link from the front page of BOINC Seti@H Finite Work Supply Check out the paragraph named Finite work supply

This from the Classic website under Tech. News May 4 2004

Most of our technical effort over the past year has been focused on ramping up SETI@home II, which involves an entirely new client/server architecture we are developing called BOINC. BOINC has been in alpha/beta test for a while now, and we're hoping to release an early version soon. The bottom line is we are currently running two SETI@home-sized projects on the same amount of hardware that up until recently ran just one project. This is difficult to say the least, but BOINC's flexible server architecture and several recent hardware donations from our major sponsors are making for a smoother transition.
Tech. News May 4 2004

Bah!!! I am in it for the money.

Message from the Head ;o) of the
Horse Head Nebula Branch of Seti@Home,

Check is in the mail
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Message 11683 - Posted: 24 Jul 2004, 1:22:42 UTC - in response to Message 11681.  
Last modified: 24 Jul 2004, 1:26:23 UTC

> > Here's how I see it.
> > Seti@Home (Classic) has over 5,000,000 users. If 1% (percent)
> > come over to BIONC then that's 50,000 PCs waiting for work every
> > 2 to 5 hours. Given the fact that the guys at Berkeley have had
> > a lot problems with equipment, bugs in the software and down time at the
> > observatory and the pressure being applied by the users, I think
> > the Seti Team at Berkeley has done a fantastic job. I wouldn't
> > want to be in their shoes. Guys, cut them some slack.
> >
> > If some of you really are impatient and want to heat up your processors
> > that bad, Stanford U. could use some help with the protien project.
> >
> >
> >
> > Don. Derry NH USA
> >
> Good post Kilted One..........
>
> I believe the total active base is closer to 500,000..
>
> The below is posted for those that want more info, all I can say is that you
> do not read the info you have...........
>
> THis is a link from the front page of BOINC Seti@H <a> href="http://setiweb.ssl.berkeley.edu/sah_about.php">Finite Work Supply[/url]
> Check out the paragraph named Finite work supply
>
> This from the Classic website under Tech. News May 4 2004
>
> Most of our technical effort over the past year has been focused on ramping up
> SETI@home II, which involves an entirely new client/server architecture we are
> developing called BOINC. BOINC has been in alpha/beta test for a while now,
> and we're hoping to release an early version soon. The bottom line is we are
> currently running two SETI@home-sized projects on the same amount of hardware
> that up until recently ran just one project. This is difficult to say the
> least, but BOINC's flexible server architecture and several recent hardware
> donations from our major sponsors are making for a smoother transition.
> Tech. News May 4
> 2004

>
> Bah!!! I am in it for the money.
>
> Message from the Head ;o) of the
> Horse Head Nebula Branch of Seti@Home,
>
> Check is in the mail
>
Don. Derry NH USA

Oops, Did I leave out a zero. Who said a zero has no value.
500,000 PCs every 2-5 hours, and of course everyone wants at least
5 or 10 WUs with each download. Thats a lot of holes to fill.
Patience folks, "If you ask, They will come."
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Message 11684 - Posted: 24 Jul 2004, 1:23:43 UTC - in response to Message 11678.  
Last modified: 24 Jul 2004, 1:35:34 UTC

> Now that I got that off my chest, I have a question.
> Does anyone know how to check the status of pending
> credits? Those WUs that have been reported but not
> yet credited? I know I saw a thread on this subject but I'll be
> darned if I can find it.
>

I do not think you can check at this time and I remember a post also but if memory serves me, they shut it down..... Sometimes it takes up to 2weeks to be credited to your acct....


Documentation Menu
Release Notes
BOINC FAQ
BOINC Owner's Manual
SETI@Home Web Site Owner's Manual
SETI FAQ (pdb)

Bah!!! I am in it for the money.

Message from the Head ;o) of the
Horse Head Nebula Branch of Seti@Home,

Check is in the mail
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Message 11691 - Posted: 24 Jul 2004, 1:48:17 UTC - in response to Message 11683.  

> > > Here's how I see it.
> > > Seti@Home (Classic) has over 5,000,000 users. If 1% (percent)
> > > come over to BIONC then that's 50,000 PCs waiting for work every
> > > 2 to 5 hours. Given the fact that the guys at Berkeley have had
> > > a lot problems with equipment, bugs in the software and down time at
> the
> > > observatory and the pressure being applied by the users, I think
> > > the Seti Team at Berkeley has done a fantastic job. I wouldn't
> > > want to be in their shoes. Guys, cut them some slack.
> > >
> > > If some of you really are impatient and want to heat up your
> processors
> > > that bad, Stanford U. could use some help with the protien project.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Don. Derry NH USA
> > >
> > Good post Kilted One..........
> >
> > I believe the total active base is closer to 500,000..
> >
> > The below is posted for those that want more info, all I can say is that
> you
> > do not read the info you have...........
> >
> > THis is a link from the front page of BOINC Seti@H Finite Work
> Supply

> > Check out the paragraph named Finite work supply
> >
> > This from the Classic website under Tech. News May 4 2004
> >
> > Most of our technical effort over the past year has been focused on
> ramping up
> > SETI@home II, which involves an entirely new client/server architecture
> we are
> > developing called BOINC. BOINC has been in alpha/beta test for a while
> now,
> > and we're hoping to release an early version soon. The bottom line is we
> are
> > currently running two SETI@home-sized projects on the same amount of
> hardware
> > that up until recently ran just one project. This is difficult to say
> the
> > least, but BOINC's flexible server architecture and several recent
> hardware
> > donations from our major sponsors are making for a smoother transition.
> > Tech. News May
> 4
> > 2004

> >
> > Bah!!! I am in it for the money.
> >
> > Message from the Head ;o) of the
> > Horse Head Nebula Branch of Seti@Home,
> >
> > Check is in the mail
> >
> Don. Derry NH USA
>
> Oops, Did I leave out a zero. Who said a zero has no value.
> 500,000 PCs every 2-5 hours, and of course everyone wants at least
> 5 or 10 WUs with each download. Thats a lot of holes to fill.
> Patience folks, "If you ask, They will come."
>
>Sorry, I did not make myself clear, there are only about 500,000 active in both Classic and BOINC Seti@H. I read somewhere that about 20,000 are in BOINC, but who knows lolol

Bah!!! I am in it for the money.

Message from the Head ;o) of the
Horse Head Nebula Branch of Seti@Home,

Check is in the mail
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Message boards : Number crunching : no work from project AGAIN!!!


 
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