Posts by Angela

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21) Message boards : Politics : Energy channeling herbalist nut job (Message 1557586)
Posted 11 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
Both Arm Flapper and SuperMindChick are Scary. And Dangerous Both.

Fair troll, you doth but flatter me!
22) Message boards : Politics : Energy channeling herbalist nut job (Message 1557495)
Posted 12 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
Anniet, I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your friend to breast cancer. I am happy to hear that your friend with colon cancer is doing really well with conventional medical intervention.

Alternative medicine enthusiasts can be the kindest, sweetest, most well-meaning of people, all while being a danger to themselves and to others.
23) Message boards : Cafe SETI : Raccoon Update XX - All are welcome in the Critter Cafe (Message 1557493)
Posted 12 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
OK just had to post this here.

Walkers "Raccoon Crisps"

24) Message boards : Politics : Energy channeling herbalist nut job (Message 1557267)
Posted 12 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
Well said and argued :)

All that's left is for me to say that I agree with you. Its hard to play the devils advocate in this case :P

I thank you for doing so, and for doing so exceedingly well.
25) Message boards : Politics : Energy channeling herbalist nut job (Message 1557193)
Posted 12 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
I agree, I too would place my faith in science. But I wonder in how far you can call what these pharmaceutical companies do 'science'. The point of the scientific method is that you accept the findings and if the findings show that you are wrong, you adjust to that data. But these companies have no problem conveniently forgetting about all the data that shows them their medicine doesn't work because at that point they have invested millions into the development of it and want to be able to sell it to as many people as possible.

I agree that the potential for corruption is something to be concerned about. I would hope that there is not widespread fraud in the pharmaceutical industry.

If these companies are falsifying their data, hiding anything inconvenient, they are not scientists, they are frauds just like faith healers and the naturalistic medicine industry.

Yes. I agree with you completely. I just hope that people like that are the exception and not the rule in medical research.

And yes, the public should be skeptical, but in order to be a skeptic, one needs expert knowledge in an extremely complicated field. Normally, we have special organizations with said experts and the necessary authority to check on these companies, but those companies have truckloads of cash, and can you trust the skeptics to be remain all that skeptical when they are getting paid off by these companies to look the other way or review the evidence in a more favorable light?

We certainly have regulatory agencies in the USA, and I hope most FDA employees are honest. We also have the almighty lawsuit to punish companies that do bad things. Alternative medicine is not regulated, to the best of my knowledge.

If the science is perverted to serve the interests of the boardroom executives instead of the honest truth, its really not any better than people selling you bs with a smile.

You are correct, but since b.s. with a smile is 100% fraudulent, I will throw my lot in with western medicine and hope, perhaps naively, that most medical researchers are honest and that most drugs do what the manufacturers claim they do.

I am healthy now, but there have been times in my life when I have not been well. I had a ruptured ectopic pregnancy in my 30's and I would not have lived were it not for emergency surgery and some nice antibiotics afterwards. I've had pneumonia twice in my life and again I am here today thanks to antibiotics. In my forties I developed very severe anemia and I would not be here today without a series of IV iron infusions and a hysterectomy to eliminate the bleeding problem. Thank goodness I never elected to see arm-waving-nut-job for treatment of these medical conditions. Western medicine may not be perfect, and some medical researchers may be prone to corruption, but western medicine is responsible for eradication of many diseases, elimination of much human suffering and phenomenal extension of the human life span.

Also, another argument one might consider, and that is the rather one sided focus of Western medicine. Its for the most part completely focused on keeping people from dying, whatever the cost. Hence we have come up with expensive machines that can keep people alive even when perhaps its best to simply let them go. There are medicine that can absolutely wreck you, keep you alive but in a way that is not exactly pleasant. Is in such cases it perhaps not better to sell people convincing nonsense, so they might live shorter but more fulfilling lives?

I am pro-euthanasia. I am also pro-patients having access to palliative care if they do not wish to spend their last days fighting against a terminal illness. Eric and I both have gone through the legal process involved in preparing advance health directives. Our documents spell out our wishes clearly regarding life support, and in doing so we hope we have freed our doctors and our loved ones from having to prolong "life" when "life" has clearly left us.

But to be fair, I would hardly call end-of-life heroics a "focus of Western Medicine". Rather, I think all those machines are more an accident of Western medicine. Nobody developed life support machines and techniques to keep somebody's 104 year old grandmother alive! Those machines were developed to give people with some life left in them a chance to recover from a catastrophic event. And sometimes it works out exactly as planned!!! A relative of mine required extensive emergency heart surgery in his 70's. After the surgery, he was placed on life support, in a drug induced artificial coma, for about six weeks. His physicians needed him completely immobile in order to give his body a chance to recover from the tremendously extensive surgery he had required. Cousin Bill is 89 years old now. He still gardens, attends family parties and enjoys the company of his wife, his grown children and his bevy of beautiful grandchildren. Thank goodness Cousin Bill's medical practitioner was not arm-waving-nut-job!!!

Is in such cases it perhaps not better to sell people convincing nonsense, so they might live shorter but more fulfilling lives?

I do not believe that it is ever in any person's best interest to sell "convincing nonsense". Give people the choice to battle illness aggressively or not aggressively. Give people the choice of legal euthanasia provided in a compassionate, supportive manner. Do not give people "convincing nonsense" and leave them to die.
26) Message boards : Politics : Energy channeling herbalist nut job (Message 1556963)
Posted 13 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
So far as i can tell, all these faith-healers, homeopaths, psychics, priests, etc, can be divided into two camps.

1: Those who genuinely believe it works and are trying to help others.
These people are misguided, and relatively harmless. They don't usually try to force it on others.

2: Those who know it's bol-, i mean rubbish, but it makes money.
This group is deeply sinister, and should be stopped. They're the ones more likely to push it onto others, possibly causing more harm in the long run by e.g. telling them to stop taking actual medicine in favour of water that's been near some nettles.

Actually Simon, I think those alternative practitioners who genuinely believe what they are doing works are ALSO quite dangerous. I believe coffee shop nut job was misguided and genuine and sweet and earnest, but definitely NOT harmless. If ever, in her "career" as a healer, or even as an unpaid advice giver to someone who is ill, coffee shop nut job convinced someone (or even herself!!!) to refuse or delay onset of conventional medical intervention for a disease or a medical condition, then nut job has placed a person at medical risk. That is dangerous, even if she has never accepted a penny in exchange for her "gifts".
27) Message boards : Politics : Energy channeling herbalist nut job (Message 1556950)
Posted 13 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
First of all, thank you for your thoughtful comments in this thread. I was waiting for a legitimate challenge and you have provided one for me.

I dunno, it does seem a bit self righteous to go off against someone like that. I mean, how would you like it if someone like that went up to your table while you were talking about going to the doctor and telling you that instead of leading people astray right into the arms of the devil you advice them to seek help from the local priest for some healing prayer.

Of course, you wouldn't like that, but that is because you believe in science and western medicine, which for the record, I agree with you on. But others clearly do not, and in a free society people are allowed to believe in alternative medicine, even if there is no scientific reason to believe it works. People are free to make stupid decisions for themselves.

I will not contest the charge of "self righteous". In fact, I will go even farther and say that I was being quite rude when I matched nut job's extremely distasteful public display with an extremely distasteful public display of my own. But there is a difference between "talking about going to a doctor" and performing a ridiculous, over-the-top, imaginary virus removal, with a subsequent family training session, smack dab in the middle of a public coffee shop. I matched rude and inappropriate behavior with rude and inappropriate behavior yesterday. Perhaps I alienated more people than I convinced? If so, then it was a poor call to act, on my part. I justified my behavior by self righteously deciding that it was in the public interest to call this woman on her nonsense and to remind listeners that there are some serious risks involved in placing trust in spiritual/alternative healers. I stand justly accused of self righteousness and I call upon public health to speak in my defense. If nut job had been just quietly discussing her beliefs at her table, I, and everyone else in the coffee shop yesterday, certainly would have taken no notice. Having normal social skills most of the time, I certainly would not have intruded upon a quiet conversation, even if I had overheard it in its entirety.

Besides, I think a lot of those people genuinely believe that alternative medicine works better, while you at the same time genuinely believe Western Medicine works better.

Yes, I believe that many people genuinely believe that alternative medicine works better. To them I say, in my best t.v. commercial voice, "Ask your doctor about Placebo. Placebo could be right for you."

Who is more naive, the person who believes in vague spiritual nonsense or the person who blindly trusts in large corporations whose primary concern are profits and not your health and well being? Both sides have a good argument for distrusting the other side, so both sides have a roughly equal standing when telling the other person to stop their nonsense.

A partially valid point in my view... Yes, both sides have a good argument for distrusting the motives of those trying to heal people - spiritual/alternative practitioners vs for-profit drug companies. But western medicine has the benefit of the scientific method on its side. Science is the driving force behind investigation of disease processes and attempts to cure them.

The scientific method is why I can answer your question with confidence - believers in vague spiritual nonsense are vastly more naive than those of us who place our trust in medical researchers, our doctors and for-profit pharmaceutical companies.

Of course there are drugs that have done far more harm than good. Of course you can find scandalous abuses in the history of western medicine, but since science is the ultimate driving force of western medicine, I think it is the best place for human beings to place their trust. Not their blind trust, mind you... Happily, skepticism is what makes science ultimately work and I'm really glad that skepticism plays for "my team".
28) Message boards : Cafe SETI : TLPTPW #217: Waiting on Two UPS Packages Today (Message 1556588)
Posted 13 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
29) Message boards : Cafe SETI : TLPTPW #217: Waiting on Two UPS Packages Today (Message 1556577)
Posted 13 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
Say what now?
30) Message boards : Politics : Energy channeling herbalist nut job (Message 1556573)
Posted 13 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
Es, I would certainly have interpreted the Peace Garden site as a clever internet joke.

I had a colleague at work once who was whacky in oh-so-many special ways. Most of the time I bit my tongue at her outrageous beliefs and actions, but in the lunchroom I could not refrain from emitting the occasional wry comment. We maintained an adequate working relationship, but I was not sad when her husband's job transferred him out of state and she moved far, far away. We did not keep in touch.
31) Message boards : Politics : Energy channeling herbalist nut job (Message 1556554)
Posted 13 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
I am 51 years old.
32) Message boards : Cafe SETI : TLPTPW #217: Waiting on Two UPS Packages Today (Message 1556536)
Posted 13 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
Laughing in Politics win!!!
33) Message boards : Politics : Energy channeling herbalist nut job (Message 1556535)
Posted 13 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
Am I just in the wrong boat here?

Yep, I've seen your hair.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What???!!! You don't like the Shredded Wheat that tops my head????!!!
34) Message boards : Politics : Energy channeling herbalist nut job (Message 1556533)
Posted 13 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
Angela, I am surprised you did not erect an S.E.P. field around the nutter.

LOL!!! You know, I usually operate on that level, but today I guess I had just "had it" with crazies and I felt that it was high time one of them got called on it. I suffered no delusion that I would be able to alter the nutter-butter's behavior in the moment, or in the future. I mean... this was clearly not going to happen: "Oh my, angry, middle-aged, gray haired, bespectacled lady. You are soooo right!!! I will STOP being crazy right this minute, enroll in a reputable accredited university, earn an advance degree in biochemistry and another one in molecular biology and then I will start publishing original research in scholarly refereed journals. Thank you sooooo much, angry lady with horribly un-stylish hair, for interrupting my coffee time and showing me the evils of my ways. I shall forever be in your debt."

Don't I wish....

No, I only staged my public-moo-cow-hissy-fit for the benefit of others who might be wondering if they, too, should look into this magical healing nonsense. That is also the reason I decided to share my afternoon adventure here on the Forum... not for those of you who agree with me, but for those lurkers out there who might wish to dabble in magic.

Magical "healing" can kill you if it keeps you from seeking the best medical treatment available for your medical condition.

Magical "healing" will make you lose weight... in your wallet!!!!

People who jeopardize public health by promoting magical "healing" should be confronted and exposed.

Those are my take away points.
35) Message boards : Politics : Energy channeling herbalist nut job (Message 1556528)
Posted 13 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
I'd say one escaped from the zoo .....

I don't know about that. I've never had an animal in a zoo try to "cure" me.

Hey Political People, it is a virtual love-fest in this thread!!! Come on!!! The Politics Forum has a reputation to uphold. Where are all the angry people telling me how wrong I am???

On a related note, Ol' Pookers and I have a dear friend who we love, love, love, but who pretty much embodies all the current coo-coo-for-cocoa-puffs stereotypes you can imagine. She is a vegan, Wiccan, gluten-free, scent-sensitive, pot-throwing, self-help book writing, massage therapist. We met her back in the day when she was a largely sane computer engineer and we will always love her dearly, even if we do not really understand her some of the time. Anyway, the type of massage therapy our friend specializes in is called Reiki, which as far as I can tell is some sort of "energy channeling" thing. Actually touching her clients is optional. Our friend can channel energy, it would seem, just by strategically placing her magical hands here and there, slightly above the prostrate forms of her clients. Ol' Pookers and I always ask each other, "Who the heck pays for a hands-off massage???!!!". Isn't the whole point of a massage having somebody touch you???!!! It all just sounds so utterly mysterious to us, but apparently enough people drink that Kool-Aid that our friend is able to support herself doing it. And she does make lovely pots. And I read her book... it was actually pretty good. And when we visit her, she sure does seem a lot less stressed out than we are.

Am I just in the wrong boat here?
36) Message boards : Politics : Energy channeling herbalist nut job (Message 1556483)
Posted 13 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
Well we get a few of those over here also. I think it may be caused by oxygen deprivation.

LOL!!! Sadly, I can't blame our nutter-butters on oxygen deprivation. I live in a shallow valley!


I'm just like you.

Actually, I'm not usually terribly confrontational, but as I age I find I am more and more likely to say what I think. Boy, if this trend continues, I'm going to be a really difficult senior citizen some day!!!
37) Message boards : Cafe SETI : TLPTPW #217: Waiting on Two UPS Packages Today (Message 1556470)
Posted 13 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
Went to the stupid Doctor today, cause I needed some input, He wouldn't see Me, not unless I was in pain or was sick, I had a CDR to talk to him about, of course I wrote on the form He was too busy to talk to Me, I may need to find that GP and see if IEHP still has that Doc listed for IEHP. So I wasted about 1.5 gallons of gasoline.

Vic, I am so sorry to read this. That is terrible. If you had an appointment he should have seen you.
38) Message boards : Cafe SETI : We all haz badges! (Message 1556462)
Posted 13 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
Uli told me donations have to wait till September to show.

I think that Uli might have been referring to people donating by check or money order when they were purchasing t-shirts. The t-shirts are being provided at cost + shipping, but many people have generously donated additional funds while purchasing shirts. Thank you!

If donors go through the link at this site, the green stars should show up pretty quickly. I think Matt has been processing the green stars for donors who went through other channels.
39) Message boards : Cafe SETI : TLPTPW #217: Waiting on Two UPS Packages Today (Message 1556454)
Posted 13 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
Hope you enjoyed your win!
40) Message boards : Politics : Energy channeling herbalist nut job (Message 1556450)
Posted 13 days ago by Profile AngelaProject donor
I wandered into a coffee shop this afternoon to enjoy a nice brisk cup of black tea. While sitting in the shop enjoying my beverage I witness a woman from a nearby table go over to a gentleman in a wheelchair who was in the shop with a woman, who I assume was his wife or girlfriend, and his/her/their three beautiful children. I over-heard the first woman say something about "energy fields" and "viruses" and then she proceeded to do this ridiculous arm flapping dance in front of the gentleman, in which she "felt" for his "energy field", "pushed" some imaginary thing in the air downwards and "extracted" what she called a "virus" from the bottom of his wheelchair. The gentleman and his wife/girlfriend were oddly and disturbingly receptive to this and shockingly, they requested some training. Nut job lady was more than happy to oblige, right there in the middle of the tea shop. Imagine, if you will, the girfriend/wife flapping her arms in front of the gentleman while original nut job lady gave her "pointers" on how to do it "correctly".

To say I was angry while witnessing this ridiculous display of chicanery would be an understatement of the highest order of magnitude. I waited until the gentleman and his family left. I certainly did not want to traumatize the man's children, because I knew that a "scene" was coming on.

I walked over to nut job's table and waited for her and her friend to look up at me. My comments were along these lines:

Angela: "Madam, you cannot put on a public display like the one I just witnessed without inviting public comment, and so therefore I feel somewhat justified in interrupting you this afternoon. I believe that you THINK you are helping when you do things like what you just did. I would like to tell you that at best you are giving people false hope and at the very worst you may be delaying people from seeking conventional medical intervention. I have.... pardon me, I HAD, a family friend who saw somebody like you for three months before seeking conventional medical intervention for her metastatic breast cancer."

Nut Job: "What do you mean, like me? I'm not anything"
(Truer words were never spoken, thought I!!!)

Angela: "When I say 'like you' I mean an energy channeling, herbalist, self-styled nutritionist, healer nut job. My friend delayed conventional medical treatment for metastatic breast cancer for three months while being 'treated' by somebody like you. She left three children in her wake when she died."

Nut Job: "You seem very angry right now."
(Angela's Thoughts - Didn't say this one out loud....) "YA THINK???!!!! ANGRY???!!! YOU SURE KNOW HOW TO READ 'EM... GOSH, YOU MUST HAVE 'THE GIFT'"

What I did say was "Yes. Enjoy my negative energy"

One person in the coffee shop applauded. The rest of the people, including the transfixed employees, stood there in stunned silence. I gathered my things and left the shop.

Yes, I had put on a scene, but you know what? I would absolutely do it again!!! I think we ALL should put on scenes whenever we stumble across these well meaning, but undeniably harm-inducing whack-a-doos.

The person who applauded me clearly was like minded, and I appreciate that. The nut job I confronted was certainly NOT convinced that I was right and she will no doubt blithely continue to sail through life doing whatever it is she does. Today was obviously a freebie, but I'm guessing she generally charges for her "services". What I do HOPE that I accomplished today was to make some of those coffee shop patrons and employees think a little bit.

Sure we can all go through life with a "live and let live" attitude. Clearly the nutter-butter had the consent of the gentleman and his wife to perform her crazy dance. Clearly they were receptive to her nonsense. Perhaps the man had already been through a medical wringer... I don't know, nor to I think that is even germane to my public display of wrath. I am here to argue that "live and let live" is a dangerous way to go. Not giving public comment to this woman's public display would have given her my tacit consent to continue in her whack-a-doo ways, and I was unwilling to do that today. I believe that what that woman was "practicing" is dangerous to the general public, and so I did my best to point that out, in a most public way.

Your thoughts?

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