Posts by Hev


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41) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1554090)
Posted 9 Aug 2014 by Profile Hev
Just thought I'd slip this in here somewhere. Pertains to "us and them".

othering-101: what is "othering"?
42) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1554048)
Posted 9 Aug 2014 by Profile Hev
Still on some of the thoughts comparing South Africa and Israel, here is the latest from Noam Chomsky in an interview with Amy Goodman of Democracy Now.

"Part 2 of our conversation with famed linguist and political dissident Noam Chomsky on the crisis in Gaza, U.S. support for Israel, apartheid and the BDS movement. "In the Occupied Territories, what Israel is doing is much worse than apartheid," Chomsky says. "To call it apartheid is a gift to Israel, at least if by 'apartheid' you mean South African-style apartheid. What’s happening in the Occupied Territories is much worse. There’s a crucial difference. The South African Nationalists needed the black population. That was their workforce. … The Israeli relationship to the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories is totally different. They just don’t want them. They want them out, or at least in prison."

Israel's Actions in Palestine are "Much Worse than Apartheid" in South Africa

For those with some intellectual curiosity surrounding the complex relationship between Israel and Palestine this is well worth listening to.
43) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1554004)
Posted 8 Aug 2014 by Profile Hev
Oh dear... my head is spinning with posts... and I STILL haven't caught up with ones dating from when I was so firmly muzzled... but this one from John Neale...

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

My country is now ruled by the African National Congress (ANC), which is an alliance with, among others, the South African Communist Party.

The global icon of the 20th century, Nelson Mandela, was once regarded by many in the western world as a terrorist, including Great Britain and the United States. In the USA, this continued long after Mandela's release from prison, and even long after he became the first president of the democratic South Africa.

So be careful with labels. They come unstuck.

More on topic: how did the ANC progress from terrorist organisation to ruling party? Well, maybe Benjamin Netanyahu should have a chat with FW de Klerk and ask him what he did.


... I absolutely endorse... :) and weren't the South African population (both the oppressed and their former oppressors) amazing! :) I was so proud of them all!! :)

(off for another rummage in the thread now... bye!)


I'm still working on your previous post anniet. I didn't know about the South Africans who settled in Israel and their connection to the IDF. Some people are making comparisons between Gaza and a Bantustan.

Gaza is a Bantustan

But I also need to do more digging and that does take time.
44) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1553167)
Posted 7 Aug 2014 by Profile Hev
Nothing wrong with pinkos and commies Clyde.
45) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1552133)
Posted 4 Aug 2014 by Profile Hev
Latest article from Chris Hedges, American journalist and a member of the New York Times team that won the Pulitzer Price in 2002.

"George Orwell in his novel “Nineteen Eighty-Four” called this form of propaganda doublethink. Doublethink uses “logic against logic” and “repudiate[s] morality while laying claim to it.” The Big Lie does not allow for the nuances and contradictions that can plague conscience. It is a state-orchestrated response to the dilemma of cognitive dissonance. The Big Lie permits no gray zones. The world is black and white, good and evil, righteous and unrighteous. The Big Lie allows believers to take comfort—a comfort they are desperately seeking—in their own moral superiority at the very moment they have abrogated all morality."

In this article he states that neither he nor any journalist he knows has seen any evidence that Hamas uses civilians as human shields.
He is also a socialist.

Why Israel Lies

And he is just a journalist. He can say what ever his heart desires for the world to belive or not belive.
Im sure if your country was getting a damn missle attack all the time, You would want it to stop.
I think both sides are being stupid. And I think the rest of the world should take a HELL of a lot of that blame for not finding a solution.


Funny you should say that. I lived in London UK during the IRA bombing campaign but not once did I ever think that the government should go and flatten the people of Ireland.
46) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1552128)
Posted 4 Aug 2014 by Profile Hev
Latest article from Chris Hedges, American journalist and a member of the New York Times team that won the Pulitzer Price in 2002.

"George Orwell in his novel “Nineteen Eighty-Four” called this form of propaganda doublethink. Doublethink uses “logic against logic” and “repudiate[s] morality while laying claim to it.” The Big Lie does not allow for the nuances and contradictions that can plague conscience. It is a state-orchestrated response to the dilemma of cognitive dissonance. The Big Lie permits no gray zones. The world is black and white, good and evil, righteous and unrighteous. The Big Lie allows believers to take comfort—a comfort they are desperately seeking—in their own moral superiority at the very moment they have abrogated all morality."

In this article he states that neither he nor any journalist he knows has seen any evidence that Hamas uses civilians as human shields.
He is also a socialist.

Why Israel Lies
47) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1551521)
Posted 2 Aug 2014 by Profile Hev
"When they destroy your mosques, call your prayers from our churches" Father Manuel Musallam

Solidarity between Christian minority and Muslim majority is growing in Gaza as both suffer under the Israeli offensive, with churches sheltering all religions and prayers being offered up on all sides
48) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1551357)
Posted 2 Aug 2014 by Profile Hev
Hello everyone :) Sorry for the delay Sirius. Had to unblock a drain... a bit whiffier than I usually am but hopefully the gorilla won't mind :)

...here is the 500lb gorilla...

However, with Islam having 25% of the world's population, where are those nations condemnation? Where is the consolidation into one people to put a stop to what is happening?

...hmm, is it because they much prefer $$$ like Quatar & Fifa in the disgusting situation regarding the 2022 World Cup? Not paying their foreign workers for over 5 months with some not being paid for a year & those workers living in camps with squalid conditions?.


And here are some bananas :) There are a lot out there, but you have to really look for them :/ I will cite just a couple of examples (in addition to those you've raised above) because in many ways this gorilla may need a thread of it's own (given how bound and tied and gagged it is). Okay... this is basically the issue... the people are protesting... but their governments are not.

Report dated July 20th
Indian troops open fire on protesters who clash with security forces during demonstration against Gaza operation

Dozens of protesters have been injured in the protests against the Israeli military campaign in Gaza.
The protests have been occurring on an almost daily basis in the Kashmir valley, which has been at the center of a quarter-century revolt against Indian rule.
The fighting, and India’s tense relations with nuclear-armed rival Pakistan, have made Kashmir one of the most militarized zones in the world and has left tens of thousands dead, mostly civilians.

Israel has long been a key arms supplier to the Indian government. Israel’s relations with Hindu-majority India have long been viewed with suspicion and hostility by the South Asian nation’s large Muslim minority.

India is also one of the top recipients of US aid...

Report dated July 14th
Worldwide protests against Israel's Gaza slaughter

Protests and demonstrations in support of Gaza took place in at least 38 countries, among them South Africa, Turkey, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Argentina, Egypt, Yemen, Nicaragua, Honduras, Brazil, Venezuela, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, South Korea, Sweden, Syria, Pakistan, India, Ireland, Spain, Serbia, Mexico, Italy, Finland, the Netherlands, Japan — and Israel, where there were anti-war and anti-occupation protests in Tel Aviv.


Many Muslim nations in there... all in receipt of US "tied" aid as far as I have been able to determine - got a bit dizzy after reading so many examples of state-speak common to most "aid" packages with Muslim states... so not impossible I've missed something :/ Apologies if I have.

If we look at one of those in the list above...
Indonesia has the highest Muslim population in the world. Protests against Israel's Military Operation In Gaza (on July 11, 2014) in Yogyakarta, and in Jakarta (where women took part in a protest against Israel's air strikes on Gaza) were tagged by news agencies as "civil unrest". The government stayed silent. Why? It might be because it receives even more in "tied" defence aid than India does.

Here's another example of how "aid packages" tie the tongues of governments, and result in "civil unrest" amongst their people...

African Growth and Opportunity Act, signed into US law in 2000, is potentially even more sinister than tied aid. “If a country is to be eligible for AGOA, it has to refrain from any actions that may conflict with the US’s ‘strategic interests'".

The war against Iraq was of 'strategic interest' to the United States. As a result, several African members of the UN Security Council, including Cameroon, Guinea and Angola, were virtually held to ransom when the United States was seeking council support for the war in 2003. The message was clear: either they voted with the US or they lost their trade privileges.

Approximately one-third of US foreign aid is shared between Israel and Egypt... much of it in the form of "military credits" for foreign militaries to buy US weapons and equipment.

Of course - soon into this little bit of digging I came across a link to a specific and up-to-date page (within The U.S. Agency for International Development website) that looked like it would be a real fountain of knowledge with regards the breakdown of US aid by country and type and conditions and how it might be muzzling some nations - but it has, weirdly, disappeared. *disappointed blinking* Such a shame :( Seems to have gone the same way as that blog Hev was talking about. Never mind...this one is probably less reliable - but still interesting :)

And this report dated August 1st, addresses the deafening silence of governments all round the world
Saudi king condemns Gaza war but not Israel but money and arms speak louder than words sadly :( and the fingerprints of so many nations are everywhere :(

Is that enough bananas for now?

late edit: quick... before the edit window closes... :) I THINK you said something about why is it that all Muslims haven't united in one voice, Sirius? And I didn't answer it... We all know why - it's the age old problem that walks in step with religious faith and belief. For Muslims - the first split came almost as soon as the prophet erm... peace be upon him (don't want to get into trouble here :)) stopped breathing...

Very interesting post Anniet.

Very interesting post indeed, anniet. Plenty more digging to do I think...
49) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1551306)
Posted 2 Aug 2014 by Profile Hev
The munitions have been stored there for a few years

so this doesn't sound anything like a recent sale, much more like a memo to update inventory status.

also wonder if that "storage" is even a US facility, Wiki only lists one US base in Israel and sat photos don't show revetments for $1B in weapons storage there. It does show some pretty tall antenna masts.

Israel has a very large munitions industry itself so it really doesn't have to rely on outside suppliers.

Cheers.


Wiggo, does this count as part of Israel's munitions industry? Looks like it makes it's own drones anyway.

stocks rise for Israeli drone maker as Gaza slaughter continues
50) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1551061)
Posted 1 Aug 2014 by Profile Hev
Times of Israel pulls "permissable genocide" blog..

When Genocide is Permissable
51) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1550965)
Posted 1 Aug 2014 by Profile Hev
This, I think, is one of the most honest and appropriate responses to the massacre in Gaza. At least there is hope for some of humanity.

UN Official Chris Gunness Breaks Down on Air After School Bombing
I just saw that and am ashamed the US pays the UN's bills for this tripe.

I guess empathy is not one of your strong points.
52) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1550812)
Posted 1 Aug 2014 by Profile Hev
This, I think, is one of the most honest and appropriate responses to the massacre in Gaza. At least there is hope for some of humanity.

UN Official Chris Gunness Breaks Down on Air After School Bombing
53) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1549120)
Posted 28 Jul 2014 by Profile Hev
Michael Rosen

24 July at 02:09 ·
Israel bans radio advert listing names of children killed in Gaza
(Guardian 24.07.14)

Don't mention the children.
Don't name the dead children.
The people must not know the names
of the dead children.
The names of the children must be hidden.
The children must be nameless.
The children must leave this world
having no names.
No one must know the names of
the dead children.
No one must say the names of the
dead children.
No one must even think that the children
have names.
People must understand that it would be dangerous
to know the names of the children.
The people must be protected from
knowing the names of the children.
The names of the children could spread
like wildfire.
The people would not be safe if they knew
the names of the children.
Don’t name the dead children.
Don’t remember the dead children.
Don’t think of the dead children.
Don’t say: ‘dead children’.
54) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1548656)
Posted 27 Jul 2014 by Profile Hev
Now imagine that they launched an attack from an Irish school. Are you saying that the British would be well within their rights to bomb that school full of innocent Irish children? Would you, as an Irish person, be totally ok with that?

Do they launch the attacks at all hours of the day and night? Are they launching the attack with the kids in the school? Does my intelligence even know if there are kids in the building?

Suppose they launch attacks from 9:00 to 12:00 in the morning on school days from the roof of the classrooms. My intelligence knows classes are from 8:00 to 2:00. My intelligence also knows they wheel the launchers into the bomb shelter under the classrooms when they are done shooting at 12:00 every day. Do I have to wait until say 3:00 so I'm reasonably sure all the kids are gone? So I can only attack the equipment but not the soldiers? Does it make a difference that there is a apartment house next to the school and I will need to use much larger explosive, one I know will take out the apartment house to penetrate the bomb shelter?

Welcome to the world of the morality of the immorality of war.

The reality is the enemy can by his choices remove the possibility of me making choices to limit collateral damage by where and when he chooses to fight.

Did Britain participate in the firebombing of Dresden? Was that firebombing a war crime?


Yes, the firebombing of Dresden was a war crime.
55) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1548635)
Posted 27 Jul 2014 by Profile Hev
Here is an interesting and thoughtful article from today's Haaretz newspaper

The country that wouldn't grow up


An interesting read Hev - thank you :) This IS off-topic I know, but the piece mentioned apartheid South Africa... which made me think of the sanctions that were brought against that country...

If you'll forgive my being nosy for a moment... How many supported that and/or boycotted their tainted goods? :) And how many bought products "made/produced in Israel" then? Some canned fruit perhaps? Orange juice maybe? So many many things :) How many know that Israel was the middle man, the sanction breaker, the arms dealer and profiteer, that propped up that regime?


Hi anniet, the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa definitely is on topic. Many of us took part in the sanctions against South Africa even if it was just refusing to buy South African products.

Many consider Israel an apartheid state and there is a lot of activity via getting banks (remember Barclays?) to withdraw from operating in Israel, boycotting goods from Israel etc.

Here is a link to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) Movement

BDS Movement
56) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1548189)
Posted 26 Jul 2014 by Profile Hev
Here is an interesting and thoughtful article from today's Haaretz newspaper

The country that wouldn't grow up
57) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1546786)
Posted 24 Jul 2014 by Profile Hev
A compassionate piece of writing by Gabor Maté in the Toronto Star..

By: Gabor Maté Published on Tue Jul 22 2014

"As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”

It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach."

Full article

Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare. Everyone ought to be sad at what the beautiful old dream of Jewish redemption has come to. Everyone ought to grieve the death of innocents

Just finished the article.

The piece was not "compassionate". At least to the Jewish People in Israel, whom Hamas, and other Jihadist's, repeatedly state they wish to exterminate.


Thank you Clyde for reading the article.
I'm sorry that you didn't find the article compassionate. If people have no empathy for the slaughter taking place in Gaza, there is nothing I can really say about that.
58) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1546641)
Posted 24 Jul 2014 by Profile Hev
A compassionate piece of writing by Gabor Maté in the Toronto Star..

By: Gabor Maté Published on Tue Jul 22 2014

"As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”

It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach."

Full article

Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare. Everyone ought to be sad at what the beautiful old dream of Jewish redemption has come to. Everyone ought to grieve the death of innocents
59) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1546260)
Posted 23 Jul 2014 by Profile Hev
Worth a read.
Life — if you can call it that — under Israel’s Iron Dome


Looks like they still have all their body parts though.
60) Message boards : Politics : The Israel and Palestine conflict (Message 1546258)
Posted 23 Jul 2014 by Profile Hev
Especially when the western media reporting is so incredibly biased against them. Most Americans do not hear the other side of the argument at all.

I will keep trying to present the view from the other side because that story needs to be told.

In doing so please do not spread propaganda.
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/8076.htm
I know it will be vary hard to get non biased reporting to quote. Anyone inside Gaza is subject to Hamas censorship.

Only then can there be some movement to finding a workable solution.

No. Only if each side wishes an end will there be a solution. Don't presuppose both sides wish an end, when that is not a fact in evidence.

Unfortunately if there was peace there would be an incredible power vacuum in Gaza and Hamas would be out of a job. Hamas is very unlikely to allow that to happen. They (the persons making up the bureaucracy) have far too much personally at stake to wish an end to the conflict.


You do know that your linked website is a Vital Component in the U.S. War on Terror don't you? I wouldn't expect much non bias there especially given the familiar names on the board of advisors, Donald Rumsfeld being one of them.


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