Latest Threadripper looks Impressive. Intels response?

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Message 1948204 - Posted: 6 Aug 2018, 19:41:34 UTC

First off, I'll say that I haven't owned an AMD processor probably since the end of the last millennium, or very early in this one. An article just popped into my inbox from ZDnet, AMD unveils 'world record breaking' Intel-beating 2nd-generation Ryzen Threadripper processors which caught my eye, being a big fan of Moar Korz lol

Skimmed thru it, and at first blush, it looks pretty impressive. Recent history from Intel has had them about 1/2 to 1 step ahead of AMD in terms of performance, so seeing what this is doing in terms of stomping on Intels top of the line CPU, and coming in a couple hundred dollars cheaper, well, I guess I'm wondering if Intel has another shoe about to drop. That's what they've seemed to do consistently for about the last decade or more, so I am curious what them might have up their sleeve?

As I haven't been in need of a new system for a bit now, I haven't been keeping up on the latest and greatest, or what might be in the pipeline. Does anyone have any 'inside scoop' on what might be coming down the pike from the big kahuna, in terms of price, performance and expected release date? I'm very glad that Intel is getting it's feet held to the fire, competition breeds innovation, and can keep the lid on pricing as well.

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Message 1948215 - Posted: 6 Aug 2018, 20:19:10 UTC - in response to Message 1948204.  

I think Intel got caught with their pants down by AMD and Zen architecture. Intel got so accustomed to just dribbling out very, very slight incremental improvements in their architecture because they felt no pressure from competitors. Plus, I think they figured the general purpose computer user never would have need of more than 4 cores since the bread and butter gaming market hadn't needed more than a single core to run a game.

That has changed demonstrably with the success of Ryzen and Threadripper and the software developers are finally making changes in their products to use more cores as long as they are available. And that has forced Intel to get to market products that are only beginning to match the AMD products which have been on the market for over a year now. Definitely a knee-jerk reaction on Intel's part.
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Message 1948261 - Posted: 6 Aug 2018, 22:23:46 UTC - in response to Message 1948215.  

I believe I heard scuttlebutt when the 1st rev was released, that the newest one is compatible with the original gens motherboards? Any idea if this is true, and is there a board that is known to stand out for these processors?

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Message 1948276 - Posted: 6 Aug 2018, 23:11:35 UTC - in response to Message 1948261.  

When AMD first announced both Ryzen and Threadripper, they pointed out that the socket design would be the same for 3 future generations of processors. Quite unlike Intel which introduces a new socket and required motherboard for every new Intel processor release.

You will be able to use the same motherboards that were introduced last year up until probably 2020 or 2021 until Ryzen 3 or Threadripper 3 ships.

The ASUS Zenith Extreme from last year is supposed to be compatible with no changes other than buying the optional "Cooling kit" that will be available with the TR+ processors. That is an alternate VRM heatsink and a 40mm fan attachment. The new MSI MEG Creation X399 motherboard is a new design with much beefier power delivery. Any new or existing X399 motherboard is going to have to handle 250W TDP stock and even more if overclocked.
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Message 1948330 - Posted: 7 Aug 2018, 12:33:53 UTC
Last modified: 7 Aug 2018, 12:34:23 UTC

Here's the latest from Toms Hardware for the big splash for AMD's latest release:


First Look: AMD Threadripper 2000 Series (aka Threadripper 2) vs. Intel Core X

AMD announced today that its new second-gen Threadripper lineup, also known as Threadripper 2 or Threadripper 2000-Series, is open for preorders. The brawny 32-core, 64-thread Ryzen Threadripper 2990WX serves as the $1,799 halo product of the company's new 2000-series lineup. And if you're not after that many cores (or ready to take that big of a hit on your bank account), the flagship chip comes accompanied by several new Threadripper processors that include 12, 16, and 24-core options...

... With the help of liquid nitrogen, the flagship Threadripper 2990WX smashed past the Cinebench score Intel displayed during its now-notorious Computex presentation with an overclocked (and unreleased) 28-core processor. We'll circle back to that shortly...

... Intel quickly ... dropped prices from $172 per core for its flagship Core i7-6950X to $99 per core for the follow-up Core i9-7900X. Even after Intel's radical pricing adjustments, Team Blue still lags behind AMD's competitive per-core pricing...

... But AMD isn't finished. The company has retooled its Ryzen lineup with the new Zen+ optimizations...

... AMD upped the ante with the help of several pots of LN2. The company overclocked the Threadripper 2990WX to 5.1GHz on all cores [to leap ahead of Intel's best]...



Very good to have some fair competition.

But will Intel play fair?...


Happy fast crunchin'!
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Message 1948334 - Posted: 7 Aug 2018, 12:48:19 UTC

I read a very through comparison review of the threadripper vs intel.

And for the kind of processing we do with BONIC the way the architecture is laid out works fine. Ditto on VM's and other discrete "fit into one cache" space.

However, for things like giant production database processing the speed of the cache access was about the same as the speed for accessing ram. This is because the process can't fit into a single L1/L2 cache. And the caches on the threadripper are segmented by cpu grouping. (I think that is what I remember).

So Intel still has a competitive advantage in some parts of the giant data center market.

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Message 1948386 - Posted: 7 Aug 2018, 16:56:27 UTC - in response to Message 1948334.  

But the datacenter product is Epyc, NOT Threadripper. There are differences in the interconnects between the two products.
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Message 1949081 - Posted: 11 Aug 2018, 22:18:31 UTC

So I wonder who's going to be the first person here to acquire one of these beauties and put it to the test? Is it dual CPU capable, or is it just a one CPU /system type of processor?

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Message 1949144 - Posted: 12 Aug 2018, 8:15:19 UTC

Its available on august 13.
At least here in germany.


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Message 1949264 - Posted: 13 Aug 2018, 0:15:13 UTC - in response to Message 1949081.  

All the Threadrippers have been single socket. There was the single socket Epyc 7351P or 7551P processors with 16C/32T or 32C/64T back on first generation Epyc.
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Message 1953551 - Posted: 3 Sep 2018, 10:41:12 UTC - in response to Message 1948204.  

my new pc build with be with thread ripper . the price to power ration is surprising.
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Message 1953651 - Posted: 3 Sep 2018, 21:47:06 UTC - in response to Message 1953551.  

Good to know. And it looks like _someone_ isn't going to have Any cooling issues with their systems, eh bloodrain?

Antarctica.

Sheesh, and I thought MN was cold for about half the year...

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Message 1954465 - Posted: 9 Sep 2018, 1:49:20 UTC - in response to Message 1948261.  
Last modified: 9 Sep 2018, 1:59:38 UTC

I believe I heard scuttlebutt when the 1st rev was released, that the newest one is compatible with the original gens motherboards? Any idea if this is true, and is there a board that is known to stand out for these processors?

For both Ryzen and ThreadRipper, the boards are both forward and backwards compatible.

Ryzen (gen1, 14nm) launched, and now we're on Ryzen+ (gen2, 12nm). Ryzen 2 (gen3, 7nm) is coming in more than likely, 2019, and then there's going to be Ryzen 2+ (gen4, 5?nm) in 2020.

AMD has said/promised that gen1 boards will be able to do gen4 CPUs with a BIOS update. Conversely, a gen4 board will do a gen1 CPU just fine.

Ideally, you should get the same gen board for the gen of CPU you're putting onto it, since there are minor updates/improvements that are offered with each gen that is planned. For instance, Ryzen+ can do XFR2.0 which allows for smaller frequency steps, whereas gen1 boards are stuck with XFR1.0. It's a small difference, but there's still SOME kind of performance that could be gained by using a gen2 board with a gen2 CPU, but you don't HAVE TO.

For example, the difference between x370 (gen1) and x470 (gen2) boards is gen2 has more usb3.1 than x370 had, and also has more/better voltage regulator modules (VRMs). Gen2 has much better memory compatibility than gen1. As well as some other smaller tweaks for accessory/components not necessarily related to the CPU itself.

The one and only down-side/caveat to this is that unless you already had/have a gen1 cpu on a gen1 board, you'll need to use a gen1 cpu on a gen1 board to update the BIOS so that you can use a gen2/3/4 on it as those updates get released. For the time being, AMD actually has a service that is free (I think.. a friend of mine did it and they said it was free for them), where if you buy a gen1 board and a gen2 CPU, AMD will send you a loaner gen1 CPU so that you can update the BIOS, and then you send the loaner CPU back to them.



The same basic premise also exists for the ThreadRipper platform, though I don't know about the loaner CPU to update the BIOS for that line of CPUs, but the rough roadmap is the same for TR as it is for Ryzen, just ~6 months later.


So I wonder who's going to be the first person here to acquire one of these beauties and put it to the test? Is it dual CPU capable, or is it just a one CPU /system type of processor?

Both Ryzen and TR are single-socket systems, despite TR being based on the server components. And actually, the logical structure is pretty interesting anyway. You guys remember how when nvidia did the GTX's at first, and it was two GPUs on one PCB that didn't require SLI? That's basically what TR is.

Ryzen is comprised of two 4-core dies that are connected to each other via Infinity Fabric--which operates at the same speed as the memory controller, which is why you want the most MHz you can get out of the RAM as possible.

Threadripper.. is two Ryzens..connected via more Infinity Fabric, but each half has its own memory controller, hence why TR is quad-channel whereas Ryzen is only dual-channel. Not sure what the central Fabric is clocked/locked to--probably the first half's memory controller.

But when you use Threadripper, you need NUMA support in the software and applications you are using, because while it is only one physical CPU and one physical socket, it is LOGICALLY two CPUs, with two separate memory banks and two memory controllers, meaning a process that is running on one side of the CPU will need to be able to access memory from the other side's controller.

So in a sense, TR already is a 2P system, but with just one socket.




If anyone was wondering, all of my knowledge on this is based on WCCFTech articles that I've been reading for the past 24 months. I'm probably not exactly correct on a few details, but close enough for the discussion at-hand.
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Message 1954472 - Posted: 9 Sep 2018, 3:08:38 UTC - in response to Message 1954465.  

But when you use Threadripper, you need NUMA support in the software and applications you are using, because while it is only one physical CPU and one physical socket, it is LOGICALLY two CPUs, with two separate memory banks and two memory controllers, meaning a process that is running on one side of the CPU will need to be able to access memory from the other side's controller.

Not true. Threadripper has two memory modes UMA and NUMA. So you can set it up for local memory access with lower latency for video game playing. Or set it up for distributed memory access where all dies have access to all memory but some memory has higher latency because one die has to fetch access through the other die.
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Message 1954493 - Posted: 9 Sep 2018, 7:42:14 UTC

My understanding on that from what I've read is that if you put it on UMA so there is one memory controller... you're shutting off half of the CPU. I've read the workarounds for some games, and that's precisely what it does. It shuts off one half of the CPU, but pools ALL of the memory onto one controller.

So you lose half the cores/threads, and you lose the additional bandwidth of quad-channel memory.

That alone was the reason I decided to not go with TR as my main machine, was because I didn't want to have to reboot, go into BIOS, turn off half the CPU, boot up, so I could play an old game for an hour, and then have to do that again to turn the other half back on. Not entirely sure if the changes can be done hot, or if they need a restart, to be honest. I thought I had read long ago that you could use the software to set it for that, restart, and the changes would take effect. Maybe I'm wrong on that particular one.

Sure, it would be wonderful to have that many cores/threads, but if you're going to use TR or any other 2P setup, you need to be using software that is either meant for, or able to cope with, that configuration of two memory controllers and that many threads.


Again, maybe I'm understanding this wrong, but it looks like WCCFtech explained it like I thought:
Once again, like 1st Gen Ryzen Threadripper CPUs, the 2nd Gen series will feature support in Ryzen Master, allowing users to switch between Game Mode or Creator Mode. There will also be options to switch between legacy mode which will disable the extra threads on the processors to avoid incompatibility in legacy or older applications.

With memory access modes, users can select between UMA (maximum memory bandwidth) and NUMA (lowest latency) modes.

Another thing worth noting is that in game mode, Ryzen Threadripper processors will optimize to run with 8 cores, 16 threads. That means only 2 CCX or 1 die would be enabled, reducing latency.

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Message 1954568 - Posted: 9 Sep 2018, 22:43:45 UTC - in response to Message 1954472.  


Not true. Threadripper has two memory modes UMA and NUMA. So you can set it up for local memory access with lower latency for video game playing. Or set it up for distributed memory access where all dies have access to all memory but some memory has higher latency because one die has to fetch access through the other die.


I believe the 2990wx and the 2970wx do not have the option to switch between NUMA and UMA. but other 2nd gen TR chips do.

see here: https://www.anandtech.com/show/13124/the-amd-threadripper-2990wx-and-2950x-review/2

*snip*
For the 2990WX and 2970WX, the two ‘inactive’ dies are now enabled, but do not have extra access to memory or PCIe. For these cores, there is no ‘local’ memory or connectivity: every access to main memory requires an extra hop. There is also extra die-to-die interconnects using AMD’s Infinity Fabric (IF), which consumes power.

The reason that these extra cores do not have direct access is down to the platform: the TR4 platform for the Threadripper processors is set at quad-channel memory and 60 PCIe lanes. If the other two dies had their memory and PCIe enabled, it would require new motherboards and memory arrangements.

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Message 1954572 - Posted: 9 Sep 2018, 23:14:54 UTC - in response to Message 1954568.  

I've never read wcctech for technical reviews. Only thing I have seen from them is leaked rumors. For technical descriptions of things, especially processors, I feel Anandtech is the best source for explaining the detailed analysis of processor function and design.

For on the fly toggling of UMA to NUMA modes, you are supposed to use the AMD Ryzen Master utility.

The WX processors make no gaming concessions since their target audience is server or HEDT. Ian correctly describes the memory access for each of the four enabled dies.
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Message 1954600 - Posted: 10 Sep 2018, 5:38:19 UTC

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Message 1954616 - Posted: 10 Sep 2018, 8:24:53 UTC - in response to Message 1954600.  

Yes, I saw that Kevin updated his host to the latest TR2. See that the cpu times seem just about the same with the 2990WX as they were with his older TR 1950X. Can't say anything about whether he is seeing better or worse memory latencies with his 4 die cpu.
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Message 1954630 - Posted: 10 Sep 2018, 11:00:50 UTC - in response to Message 1954616.  

Yes, I saw that Kevin updated his host to the latest TR2. See that the cpu times seem just about the same with the 2990WX as they were with his older TR 1950X. Can't say anything about whether he is seeing better or worse memory latencies with his 4 die cpu.


Swapped it out at the beginning of the WOW event.

Having problems with it, keeps locking up and unable to run it at anywhere near max, not sure if it is problems with bios setup or heat related to motherboard voltage regulators.

Got time off work in a couple of weeks, will then have time to play.
Kevin


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Message boards : Number crunching : Latest Threadripper looks Impressive. Intels response?


 
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