Oh my! I did not think this video would spark the controversy that it has.

Sirius, I understand your point and I truly hope that these young people gave written consent to their participation in this social experiment and written consent for it to be posted to social media. Thank you for your thoughtful feedback.

jmercer, thank you also for your thoughtful feedback, but please don't be "done."

The author of the article you posted came across, at least to me, as someone who was possibly "done". The author was arguing that choices, whether yours or your parents, "matter". Yes, of course choices "matter". But to the author of that article I say: if one focuses primarily on choice-making, one is at risk of missing or dismissing social inequities that stack the odds for and against any one of us making choices - good ones or bad ones.

Speaking only for myself of course, I try to guard against hyper-focusing on choice-making, especially in the absence of understanding the social factors that drive choice making. I fear that hyper-focusing on choice-making could potentially give me an excuse for being "done" with an individual... or far worse, an excuse for being "done" with a cultural group.

I never-ever-ever-ever-ever want to be "done".

Wow, Now dAts a MYTH. Supportive Parents. So Miniscule, as to be-NO SUCH THING.

With apologies to my sainted parents, may they rest in peace, I actually agree with you. I would not know how to operationally define the word "supportive" in the context of parenting.

I think that most parents try to do the very best they can for their children, but it generally takes more than that to win $100.

jmercer, thank you also for your thoughtful feedback, but please don't be "done."

You are welcome Angela.

I am done defending my opinion to antagonist, that’s all.

But to the author of that article I say: if one focuses primarily on choice-making, one is at risk of missing or dismissing social inequities that stack the odds for and against any one of us making choices - good ones or bad ones.

That sounds like uninformed choice making to me. An informed choice would take into account inequities and equities.

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That sounds like uninformed choice making to me. An informed choice would take into account inequities and equities.

j mercer +1

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jmercer, thank you also for your thoughtful feedback, but please don't be "done."

You are welcome Angela.

I am done defending my opinion to antagonist, that’s all.

But to the author of that article I say: if one focuses primarily on choice-making, one is at risk of missing or dismissing social inequities that stack the odds for and against any one of us making choices - good ones or bad ones.

That sounds like uninformed choice making to me. An informed choice would take into account inequities and equities.

Got it! I'm glad you are still in the discussion.

I just get so worried when people start talking about "good" vs "bad" choices, without considering variables that can drive choice-making and without realizing that it is possible for people to sometimes not have any "good" options at all. Sometimes all a person can do is choose between "bad" vs "worse".

I have been fortunate from cradle to present, and my good fortune will probably last me to my grave. My life circumstances and my life opportunities made it overwhelmingly unlikely that I would have "chosen" to have a baby at age 16. That would have been a "bad choice" by most measures and there was about a 0.00000001% chance of me making that "choice". On the other hand, another woman's life circumstances and life opportunities might make it overwhelmingly likely for her to "choose" to have a baby at 16... or at least not do much to actively prevent having a baby, and we ALL know how that ends. I would argue that neither of us has really made a "choice".

Good fortune tends to lead to more good fortune. That doesn't mean there isn't opportunity for the next generation to blow it! It just means the odds are in their favor that they won't.

Bad fortune, without intervention, can lead to more bad fortune. That doesn't mean that people cannot rise from horrible circumstances! It just means that the odds are less likely they will.

That is why I get nervous when people start talking about "choices".

That is why I get nervous when people start talking about "choices".

Don't we all. They can make or break us directly and or indirectly.

{this is a compliment to Angela, so please don't twist this into something it is not}
You sound like my stepfather. He painfully pounded 'cause and effect' and 'considering variables' into me. He called it 'common sense'. GAWD! I can still hear his voice ringing in my head and I'm 70. Har! I was fortunate and I am grateful and I understand not everybody has this. My stepfather was a depression era child with three sisters raised by single mother.

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...You sound like my stepfather. ...

I am both humbled and flattered that I sound like someone who must have had a profoundly positive influence on your life. Thank you!!!


I am enjoying this discussion, but I am a tiny bit confused. I think we may be on roughly the same page, but please correct me if I am wrong.

Allow me to recap:

1. I posted a video that was essentially about privilege.

2. You posted a dissenting article that claimed that privilege (or lack there of) all comes down to our choices and/or the choices of our ancestors. You wrote that the article "sums up my feelings better than I can."

To quote from your article:

When I see this video I essentially see someone glossing over all those hard choices and difficult experiences that made it possible for many of those kids to have advantages in life. And yes, it also glosses over the poor choices of the some of the parents who didn’t stick around for their kids.

3. I voiced concern that "choices" are not really choices if there are overwhelming odds that you will go one way and not another, based on your circumstances and opportunities. For example, if there was a 0.00000001% chance of me having a baby at age 16 and a 99.9999999% chance of me going to college, I simply do not get to take credit for making "good choices." The odds were stacked in my favor. These were not "hard choices" or "difficult experiences" for me. These were pretty much inevitable paths, given my life circumstances and opportunities.

While I agree with you that these so called "choices" can "make or break us directly and or indirectly" am I correct in assuming that perhaps we agree more than we disagree, and that perhaps that article you originally posted is now not quite nuanced enough to adequately sum up your feelings about the video?


The reason I am absolutely harping on this is that the statement "it is all about choices" can so easily be used to punish and oppress people.

For example, one might argue that John Doe, a smoker, is undeserving of first class, affordable healthcare because he made a "bad choice" to smoke. But if John Doe grew up in a home with parents who smoked, John was far more likely to become a smoker himself.

In another example, one might argue that Jane Doe, a single mother, is undeserving of aid for her family because she made a "bad choice" to have children she could not afford. But if Jane Doe grew up in an impoverished single parent home, Jane was far more likely to become an impoverished single parent herself. And depriving her family of much needed funds only makes it more likely that her children will continue the cycle of poverty.

In yet another example (see what I mean by "harping"!!!) one might argue that George Doe, a 16 year old gang member convicted of a violent crime, deserves to rot in prison for the rest of his young life because he made the "bad choice" of joining a gang and participating in their violent activities. But if George Doe grew up in poverty, in a community riddled by violence, with an absent father and a drug addicted mother, George was far more likely to idealize gang life, use gang leaders as role models, and not fully understand the impact and ramifications of his violent actions.

If this is what makes you nervous when people start talking about "choices", then we are really both on the same page.

I’ll try…

The reason I am absolutely harping on this is that the statement "it is all about choices" can so easily be used to punish and oppress people.

I agree to that. You can watch it happen here in the political forums. Har

With John’s smoking, until smoking is illegal there should be no change in his health care but add offers to quit with help.

Now for Jane, She has to want to break the cycle. I believe that where there is the will there is a way out.

George by not applying some common since (not much sympathy here) [gangs get in trouble with the police] George is convicted of crimes and he does the prison time. If he applies himself in prison, he could get out early maybe. Back in my day, he could have been given a choice of military or prison. I served with a few that turned into fine Marines, they squared away. One guy though was a brig rat and a lost cause. There is always one. Har!

In all of these cases these folks need/desire/drive to want to make something of their selves. Make change. You work hard, you sacrifice to get what/where you want. You do not give up. I believe everything comes to those that apply their selves.

I’ve lived on both sides of the tracks. I have little sympathy for those that do not try to help themselves. Those that truly do try and those that can’t help themselves I try to help. Example for four years in the early 90s I help put together a 501 (C) 3 organization with United Way agency number. We helped the needy for over four years and then passed it on the next group of volunteers. In that time, I found out that we were one of over 35 organizations just in our county alone. State has 100s. In my area, the help is there but folks have to want to be helped.

Granted we can get ourselves into the worst of places but the bottom line is it is all what we make it. That is a choice.

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"it is all about choices"

I maintain that this video is not about choices.
It is about the starting position in the race of life of people, just as they enter college, based on the circumstances that prevailed up to this point in their lives.

They did not have a choice who their mother was.
They did not have a choice on whether their parents were married or lived together.
They did not have a choice on whether their parents separated.
They did not have a choice on their fathers role in their upbringing.
They did not have a choice on which schools they went to.
They did not have a choice on the availability of extra tuition.
etc.. etc...

Now for Jane, She has to want to break the cycle. I believe that where there is the will there is a way out.

Let us assume for a moment that nobody actually WANTS to live in poverty.



Here are some obvious challenges Jane faces as she attempts to break the cycle of poverty.

1. Jane probably has a high school diploma. The job she will most likely get is a minimum wage service sector job. Without government assistance it would be very difficult to support a family on a single, service sector income.

2. Who will care for Jane's children when she is at work? At her service sector job, she is unlikely to earn enough money to pay for good quality childcare for her children.

3. How will she handle transportation costs to and from her job? Does she have an old car that is a money-sink in constant need of repair? Is she is going to work via public transit, which costs money and eats up time?

4. How long will Jane be able to keep her job if she has to take time off whenever one of her kids is sick and cannot attend daycare, or whenever there is a plumbing emergency in her home, or whenever her very old car will not start?

5. What happens to Jane and her children if she earns just enough money to lose free healthcare benefits for her family and gets "bumped up" into a level of partially subsidized healthcare benefits? How will she handle those additional costs with all the other demands on her income?

Oh I know some readers of this thread will have many many answers for how Jane will surmount all of these challenges, but I would argue that the cumulative toll from all of these challenges would make breaking the cycle of poverty very, very, very difficult for Jane, or really for any one of us. I am not made of steel. I am not exceptional in any way. Were I in Jane's shoes, I'm pretty darn sure I would not be able to better myself without substantial levels of support.

Example for four years in the early 90s I help put together a 501 (C) 3 organization with United Way agency number. We helped the needy for over four years and then passed it on the next group of volunteers. In that time, I found out that we were one of over 35 organizations just in our county alone. State has 100s. In my area, the help is there but folks have to want to be helped.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
It is wonderful that you have worked so hard to make your community a better place for people who are under-resourced and under-served. I thank you, I salute you and I admire you.

The true answer to Jane's problems is to try and prevent them in the first place - improve public education, financially support families in need, give Jane job opportunities that will excite her and encourage her to defer having a family until she is more independent.

Thank you for the impact you have had on your community, especially in the area of poverty prevention. Thank you for being a social justice warrior!

The true answer to Jane's problems is to try and prevent them in the first place - improve public education, financially support families in need, give Jane job opportunities that will excite her and encourage her to defer having a family until she is more independent.

For that to happen, it is time to make reforms from the top down rather than starting at bottom level. Stop tax evasion, tax avoidance, offshore accounts, zero hour contracts for starters.

I'll never see it happen in the remainder of my life. Greed has taken us too far down the wrong road.

... Maybe they thought that if it was posted on social media - the humiliation and shame wouldn't be theirs, but ours.

Beautifully said.

Social Justice Warrior.

A Person with Fervent Beliefs, using Verbal Agression leading to Physical Bodily Harm; Property Destruction; Slowing Down and Outright Stoppage of People's Daily Life Routine-Many Times Causing an Array of Harm; and Most Times NEVER facing JUSTICE Themselves for Their 'WAR' Like Activities.

Yeah, so Very SOCIAL, if SOCIETAL Miasma is dA Mission.

Bringing REAL GOoD Yap to dA Vrold

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

WOW TY! Angela. :^)

Were I in Jane's shoes, I'm pretty darn sure I would not be able to better myself without substantial levels of support.

Sorry but I come back to.

I found out that we were one of over 35 organizations just in our county alone. State has 100s. In my area, the help is there but folks have to want to be helped.

The help is there. At least in my Pacific Northwest. We (Brotherhood Fund, started by IBEW 483 Linemen) helped folks just as you described. Sorry, don't know about your area. My State jumps through its arse, at the expense of tax payers, to help those in need. Help is there but you have to jump to the task to get any where. I will help those that 'try ' to help them selves. I will not support those that do not try. It is a two way street, I will meet you at the center line.

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jmercer, I am happy to know that your area of the country is ahead of the game in helping people to overcome barriers and rise from poverty. That is awesome!

You, personally, have backed up your words with your MOST precious commodity, time, (and probably also with your money), in an effort to help equalize the playing field. Not everyone who talks about "choices" and "trying" has done what you have done. So please do not take the following personally. You have my admiration and my respect.

But the words "I will help those that 'try ' to help them selves. I will not support those that do not try." absolutely terrify me.

"Try" is such a loaded word. What constitutes "trying"? Who gets to define what is "trying" and what is "not trying"?

Does graduating from a job training program, but not being able to find work count as trying?

Does working two part time un-benefitted jobs, only to find yourself still falling behind on the rent and being on the verge of eviction count as trying?

Does personally walking your kids to school every day because your neighborhood is unsafe count as trying?

Does some Congress Critter attempting to tie benefits and assistance to "trying" get to define that word for all of us?

Do you get to define it? Do I?

Is any of us qualified to operationally define "trying" in the context of another person's life?

Probably not.

Only John Doe and Jane Doe and George Doe know whether or not they are "trying". I certainly have no personal insight into how many daily challenges and barriers to accessing help and achieving success John, Jane and George attempt to over-come each day.

(I'm sure right now many people are saying, "That darn Angela sure is trying. She is very, very trying indeed!!!")

Peace on Earth, my friend.

Do you get to define it? Do I?

My group did define it and we, I live with it. Trying for us was have you exhausted all the other sources of help available in our area. Kinda simple. Ours was a last ditch help org. We dealt with all of your examples and too many more to list. We did the best we could to help those trying and to protect the donations (from the people we worked with) that drive the helping process. It is not a fun place to be. It was painful. I'm not sure I could do it again. Take a turn in the barrel and see what the front line is like.

A lot of question marks. Would you share your response to those questions?

Two of them for sure are a sign of trying for my org.

The people that donated to the org required protection that their money was not wasted on freeloaders. We did the best we could. I just looked and I still have a copy of our help request form and you can see for your self what we tried to do.

We elect the critters, I like clowns myself, that define such things. So the ball is in our court. Be an informed voter. Even on a 501 (c) 3 level org. wink wink

Is any of us qualified to operationally define "trying" in the context of another person's life? Probably not.

This is quite true but it has to start some where. It is also a question that does not have an answer that will suit all. Or is that the true crux of your question?

[I just now see you edited, this is response to your first post]

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Who I Consider a Worthless F**K, will Not be considered a 'Worthless' 'F**K by SomeOne Else. Ones Worthless F**K is Anothers Mission for Redemption or Using Another Descriptor-Person to Help-whether they Believe 'they' 'Need' It or Not. Or Want.

No One-at Beginning of Their Life and Most of Much of Life, has Ever Decided to Make SKID ROW their Final Resting Place. Once There, Many Do Not Want to Leave, as Long as they can Get Smokes; Drink; Eats and a Dry Place to Lie.

What Do I Know. I'm White, Privileged, and Quite Lacking in Humanity.

But Not Lacking in Yap

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

That was not a $100 race, it was a demonstration of inequity with racist slips of the tongue.

You mean it was like they were recreating an ordinary day in their lives, and with the same kind of experiences?

Sorry I am not following you. Would paraphrase your post.

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Didn't see this earlier.

That was not a $100 race, it was a demonstration of inequity with racist slips of the tongue.

You mean it was like they were recreating an ordinary day in their lives, and with the same kind of experiences?

Sorry I am not following you. Would paraphrase your post.

The quickest paraphrase - "Duh " - would be rude. ;-)

It was a demonstration of: inequity; and of racist slips of the tongue. Exposure to both is still a day-to-day fact . Sexism, racism - both embedded in language. It lags behind. That is my take on why it wasn't out of place in the context it was used.

=(_8^(1)

I can see that but that does not change my opinion. :^)

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