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OzzFan Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 1859592 - Posted: 5 Apr 2017, 14:16:57 UTC - in response to Message 1859585.  

Sorry if you believe that you need more persuasive arguments, to negatively judge the above evils.

I doubt if their victims. Remember them? Would agree with you.


That's an appeal to emotion. Emotion should not be the foundation of reason and law. Persuasive arguments are an appeal to reason.
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Message 1859593 - Posted: 5 Apr 2017, 14:19:11 UTC - in response to Message 1859587.  

Is the out of control fat kid running north korea white, grey or black?


If you have it in you to see things from any other perspective other than your own, you might find that even though you disagree with his positions (as I do), you might begin to understand why they do the things they do that make you see them as evil.
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Message 1859601 - Posted: 5 Apr 2017, 14:41:47 UTC - in response to Message 1859547.  

@MK
Looks like there might be a White House job for you, Please, can someone brief the president on the unemployment rate?, looks like the President gets his "facts" from Guy.


Oh, HELL no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If I was willing to prostitute myself in a Government position, I would NOT have LEFT politics (both appointed office and the Republican Party) in the first place about 30 years ago. They wanted me to do a few favors for them that would have violated both my principles AND my Oath of Office. I not only refused but I also resigned my office.

I couldn't stand the heat (of all the LIES and Corruption), so I got OUT of the kitchen.

NOPE, you won't get me into Government again, unless it is totally CLEANED UP FIRST.

I am NOT going back into that swamp.
https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.
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Message 1859618 - Posted: 5 Apr 2017, 16:11:07 UTC - in response to Message 1859601.  

I get the slight impression that you don't want the job ;-)
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Message 1859758 - Posted: 6 Apr 2017, 6:39:29 UTC

You people over there really need political reform badly to be able to even think about being great again, or it's down the drain with you only the slime left behind.

But I've said this many times before over many years now, havn't I?

Cheers.
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Message 1859800 - Posted: 6 Apr 2017, 13:00:10 UTC - in response to Message 1859799.  

Sorry if you believe that you need more persuasive arguments, to negatively judge the above evils.

I doubt if their victims. Remember them? Would agree with you.


That's an appeal to emotion. Emotion should not be the foundation of reason and law. Persuasive arguments are an appeal to reason.

OzzFan... Excuse me.

Mass Murder, Mass Enslavement, Murdering Dictatorships, is an Intellectual Exercise?


No. Discussion and support of those view are. The actions are not.

Do you really believe that Mass Murder, Mass Enslavement, Murdering Dictatorships forces anyone to appeal to another persons Reason?


Again, the actions do not, and the actions are indeed bad and need to be stopped. We are talking on a discussion board. The purpose being we discuss ideas. If you don't want people supporting what leads to those actions, this is where persuasive discussion comes in. Change their minds before it gets to that point. Taking an absolutist approach during discussion only drives people further away from your view. What's the point of having a discussion if you're not going to help people understand your view?

What exactly is the Reasonable, Ethical, and Moral Position of a person who must be Intellectually Convinced of these are Evils?....

Answers:

#1 - None.

#2 - Any person, that refuses to acknowledge, and must be Intellectually Convinced, that these are Evil Crimes. Are as Evil as those committing these Heinous Crimes Against Humanity.


So we can condemn the actions but how do we wins the hearts and minds of those that might be persuaded to join their cause? By polarizing them? By using emotionally charged words as you're so wont to do? If you really believe you're making a difference, then keep on keeping on. I think you're achieving nothing and I'm telling you why I believe your approach is wrong. Once again, I think you're too binary and too absolutist.
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Message 1859806 - Posted: 6 Apr 2017, 13:59:03 UTC - in response to Message 1859802.  

So we can condemn the actions but how do we wins the hearts and minds of those that might be persuaded to join their cause? By polarizing them? By using emotionally charged words as you're so wont to do? If you really believe you're making a difference, then keep on keeping on. I think you're achieving nothing and I'm telling you why I believe your approach is wrong. Once again, I think you're too binary and too absolutist.

OzzFan...

Thank you for finally admitting, that you believe that attacking with disgust, any dismissal or excusal of Murder, Rape, Enslavement, et al. Is, in your words, "binary and too absolutist"

Thank you. You have made my point better than I ever could.


Thanks! I pride myself in using empathy and intellect to discuss important matters by trying to understand all sides to a story. I keep trying to help you do the same but I see now that it's a lost cause. So much for those "coffee shop discussions"...

Unfortunately... There are many in position of Power, attempting to garner Power, and Academia, who believe as OzzFan.


I would say it's fortunate rather than unfortunate. But I guess some of us have a more enlightened world view than others. Sorry yours isn't the same.
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Message 1859809 - Posted: 6 Apr 2017, 14:14:14 UTC
Last modified: 6 Apr 2017, 14:37:09 UTC

I can think of one definition of "Murder" that is a grey area that people do disagree legitimately over, so it is not as black-and-white as is being portrayed: capital punishment.

I consider capital punishment to be state-sanctioned murder, because it is the deliberate taking of a verified, viable human life of someone who is not currently a deadly threat to anyone (as the victim is already imprisoned) and this would fit the definition if committed by an individual. Yet, others do not see it that way and there is much debate over its ethos, validity and effectiveness. So, painting everyone else into an extremist corner with oneself as the only paragon of balance is at best an oversimplification.
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Message 1859814 - Posted: 6 Apr 2017, 15:01:47 UTC - in response to Message 1859809.  

I can think of one definition of "Murder" that is a grey area that people do disagree legitimately over, so it is not as black-and-white as is being portrayed: capital punishment.

I consider capital punishment to be state-sanctioned murder, because it is the deliberate taking of a verified, viable human life of someone who is not currently a deadly threat to anyone (as the victim is already imprisoned) and this would fit the definition if committed by an individual. Yet, others do not see it that way and there is much debate over its ethos, validity and effectiveness. So, painting everyone else into an extremist corner with oneself as the only paragon of balance is at best an oversimplification.


Well, you are correct in saying people do disagree on this specific subject. But, per the definition of the word 'murder', capital punishment can NOT be murder.


the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murder

The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/murder

The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/murder

See the common thread here? The term 'unlawful'.

Now then, capital punishment might be morally wrong. Different people have different opinions on the subject (mine is, in the interests of disclosure, that it is NOT morally wrong)...

But it is most certainly NOT 'murder', as long as the law allows the judge or the jury to impose the death penalty upon conviction of what ever crime the perp is charged with and convicted of.

If you (or anyone else) does not approve of capital punishment in your (or their) area, work with the relevant legislative body to get the law changed.

TL;DR version:

Capital Punishment may or may not be morally wrong, but it is NOT murder.
https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.
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Message 1859816 - Posted: 6 Apr 2017, 15:05:02 UTC - in response to Message 1859814.  

I would say that all the victims of the Holocaust were murdered. Yet, their murderers were following the law of the land at the time, put forth by a legitimately elected party and leader.
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Message 1859818 - Posted: 6 Apr 2017, 15:09:57 UTC - in response to Message 1859808.  

I would say it's fortunate rather than unfortunate. But I guess some of us have a more enlightened world view than others. Sorry yours isn't the same.

OzzFan...

Since you believe that ethics and morality have no place in your "enlightened world view".

Guessing we will 'Agree to Disagree', regarding your ethical and moral response to Murder, Rape, Enslavement, et al.


Once again you've drawn your own conclusions based upon your own interpretations of what I'm saying, and you've done so poorly I might add. I'm not quite sure why you'd arrive at the conclusion that ethics and morality have no place in my enlightened world view other than to inflame the discussion (as is typical discussing anything with you). I'm quite sure that anyone with an ounce of sense reading our back-and-forth can tell that I condemn the actions but am encouraging discussion about those ideals that lead to those actions. In fact, I outright said it previously.

That you continue to obtusely misinterpret my position, as you do to so many others, is on you. You "agreeing to disagree" isn't even valid because you haven't even figured out what you're disagreeing with other than misstating my position then disagreeing with that.
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Message 1859820 - Posted: 6 Apr 2017, 15:16:17 UTC - in response to Message 1859813.  

OzzFan and I were discussing the ethics and morality of excusing and/or dismissing Mass Murder, Mass Enslavement. In Addition to dismissing and/or excusing a Murdering and Enslaving Dictator.

OzzFan believes that no 'Enlightened Person' should consider the above Evil. I disagree.


I think you and I are having two very different discussions. Ah well, my fault for trying to engage you again. Back to ignore you go.
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Message 1859822 - Posted: 6 Apr 2017, 15:21:08 UTC - in response to Message 1859821.  

Once again you've drawn your own conclusions based upon your own interpretations of what I'm saying

That you continue to obtusely misinterpret my position, as you do to so many others, is on you.

OzzFan...

Very convenient attempt to deflect from your beliefs. As repeatedly posted.


Very rich accusation of deflection coming from you.

As you repeatedly assert. Anyone who states that an excusal and dismissal of Murdering and Enslaving Dictators is (fill-in the negatives).

Anyone who believes The Victims (remember them?) should never be mentioning in an Intellectual Discussion of Evil, is (fill-in the negatives).

Sorry OzzFan... The above are your statements.


Sorry, I never made those statements. But it is quite telling how you interpret discussions and further show why engaging you is a foolish effort.
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Message 1859825 - Posted: 6 Apr 2017, 15:43:51 UTC - in response to Message 1859822.  

Sorry, I never made those statements. But it is quite telling how you interpret discussions and further show why engaging you is a foolish effort.

Judge not lest ye be judged, and we know Clyde judges. Karma is ... .
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Message 1859887 - Posted: 6 Apr 2017, 22:08:55 UTC - in response to Message 1859814.  

I can think of one definition of "Murder" that is a grey area that people do disagree legitimately over, so it is not as black-and-white as is being portrayed: capital punishment.

I consider capital punishment to be state-sanctioned murder, because it is the deliberate taking of a verified, viable human life of someone who is not currently a deadly threat to anyone (as the victim is already imprisoned) and this would fit the definition if committed by an individual. Yet, others do not see it that way and there is much debate over its ethos, validity and effectiveness. So, painting everyone else into an extremist corner with oneself as the only paragon of balance is at best an oversimplification.


Well, you are correct in saying people do disagree on this specific subject. But, per the definition of the word 'murder', capital punishment can NOT be murder.

the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murder

See the common thread here? The term 'unlawful'.

Now then, capital punishment might be morally wrong. Different people have different opinions on the subject (mine is, in the interests of disclosure, that it is NOT morally wrong)...

Capital Punishment may or may not be morally wrong, but it is NOT murder.


If even one innocent is put to death by capital punishment, that is murder, and is state sanctioned. The paradox is that killing innocent people is unlawful, therefore if a single innocent is killed and state sanctioned, that makes all involved murders and must be put to death themselves.

I do not believe any state should be involved in killing their own people. Not only is it morally wrong, but there's bound to be mistakes. I'd rather 1000 guilty live than one innocent die.
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Message 1860065 - Posted: 7 Apr 2017, 14:17:28 UTC - in response to Message 1859887.  
Last modified: 7 Apr 2017, 14:38:58 UTC


If even one innocent is put to death by capital punishment, that is murder, and is state sanctioned. The paradox is that killing innocent people is unlawful, therefore if a single innocent is killed and state sanctioned, that makes all involved murders and must be put to death themselves.

I do not believe any state should be involved in killing their own people. Not only is it morally wrong, but there's bound to be mistakes. I'd rather 1000 guilty live than one innocent die.



I may be in favor of capital punishment, but I respect people with different opinions. Like I said, if you oppose the death penalty, get the law changed to remove the option for the death penalty as a sentence. Don't just sit and whine about it... DO SOMETHING.

As I said, I happen to be biased on the subject. I have had a number of close relatives murdered. One in particular:

My relative was out with friends at a nightclub. Upon leaving, out in the parking lot, my relative and his friends witnessed a person committing a felony (involving the use of a fire arm). Before my relative (and his friends) could turn around and run back inside, the perp shot my relative dead. The perp had previous convictions for both murder and the other felony that he was doing in the parking lot. Because it happened in a jurisdiction that did not have the death penalty, the perp just got jail for being convicted of BOTH of the crimes that night. If it had happened in Texas, it would have been capital murder (murder during the commission of another felony). The perp got convicted of the murder, the OTHER felony he was committing, AND the crimes of 'convicted felon in possession of a firearm', and 'possession of a firearm at a place that sells/serves alcoholic beverages').

My relative was dead.
The victim of the other felony the perp was doing was emotionally tramatized and a wreck for years. My relative's friends were kinda of messed up too from witnessing it. One of the friends STILL has mental trouble from witnessing it.
The perp? 3 hots and a cot for the next 30 years.

Fair? In my opinion, NO.

I am NOT saying that EVERY convicted murderer should get the death penalty.

BUT, in my opinion, there are SOME circumstances where the death penalty is called for. *This* was one of them.

Note to mods: perhaps the death penalty discussion should be separated into another thread to avoid going too much more off-topic in this one.
https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.
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Message 1860194 - Posted: 7 Apr 2017, 22:19:35 UTC - in response to Message 1860065.  
Last modified: 7 Apr 2017, 22:58:23 UTC

If even one innocent is put to death by capital punishment, that is murder, and is state sanctioned. The paradox is that killing innocent people is unlawful, therefore if a single innocent is killed and state sanctioned, that makes all involved murders and must be put to death themselves.

I do not believe any state should be involved in killing their own people. Not only is it morally wrong, but there's bound to be mistakes. I'd rather 1000 guilty live than one innocent die.


I may be in favor of capital punishment, but I respect people with different opinions. Like I said, if you oppose the death penalty, get the law changed to remove the option for the death penalty as a sentence. Don't just sit and whine about it... DO SOMETHING.


I don't disagree. Though Illinois has already done away with the death penalty back in 2011, so I have no reason to do anything other than make sure it stays banned.

As I said, I happen to be biased on the subject. I have had a number of close relatives murdered.


I do empathize with your experience. For whatever it is worth to you, I'm sorry for your losses and that you and your family had to go through those ordeals. Similarly, I know a very good lady whose husband was murdered back in 1999. He was a good family man that tried to help everyone. He was an electrician and did work in housing complexes in some of the roughest areas in Chicago. At the end of one particular day he got in his truck to go home and was reportedly approached by two men who demanded money. Witnesses heard six shots fired. Three slugs were found in his back and one in his chest. Murdered in cold blood over a simple robbery.

I told her how I feel about capital punishment and that taking another life isn't the right thing to do. She strongly disagrees with me, but she respects my belief. I've personally helped her through some hard times. She is still traumatized even though it happened nearly 18 years ago.

In the same position, I can easily see that I might agree with you. Lou Reed once sang "an eye for an eye is elemental". Sure, vengeance is hot. It's immediate. But the law is cold, and it's slow and methodical, so that as a group maybe we can act more wisely than an individual would. Personal pain is not enough reason to kill a human being.
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Message 1860818 - Posted: 10 Apr 2017, 22:35:38 UTC

So what's happened to those tax reforms?

Cheers.
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