Atheism is not a religion

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OzzFan Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 1857057 - Posted: 22 Mar 2017, 21:54:14 UTC

I'm merely opening this up as a topic for discussion in case anyone wants to carry on. If not, this thread can die a natural death. Please post if you wish to discuss or gain a better understanding.
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Message 1857062 - Posted: 22 Mar 2017, 22:09:32 UTC - in response to Message 1857057.  
Last modified: 22 Mar 2017, 22:11:06 UTC

Thanks Ozz for the new thread.

Quoting OzzFan's post from the Trump Healthcare thread that unraveled into religion:

But to the original claim, to say that non-belief is a religion is what I particularly take exception with. Maybe we should re-open a new thread for this topic and I'd be more willing to hash it out again, but to say that atheism is a religion is to not really understand what atheism is.


I know atheism basically means no religion, or no belief in religion, but my semantic way of looking at is that non-belief is a belief system in and of itself. To not believe is to believe in not believing.

[Edit added}~
And isn't a belief system a religion?
The mind is a weird and mysterious place
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Message 1857071 - Posted: 22 Mar 2017, 22:31:30 UTC - in response to Message 1857062.  

Everyone has a belief system, but a belief system isn't necessarily religion by definition. Stating you have no religious belief system, while accepting that you do have a belief system, doesn't automatically correlate to having a religion.

And I am using the definition of religion here exclusively:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

Definition of religion
1
a :  the state of a religious a nun in her 20th year of religion
b (1) :  the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) :  commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
:  a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic :  scrupulous conformity :  conscientiousness
4
:  a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


It takes mental gymnastics to try to fit atheism into that. There is no institutionalized system of beliefs or practices for atheism. Each atheist has their own individual set of beliefs, and even many share a set of beliefs, but that's not institutionalized by any means.
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Message 1857074 - Posted: 22 Mar 2017, 22:37:00 UTC

This is taken from American Atheists:
Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system.
Most atheists I know believes in evolution without the influence of a deity. No problem with that, but it is a belief.
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Message 1857077 - Posted: 22 Mar 2017, 22:41:29 UTC - in response to Message 1857074.  
Last modified: 22 Mar 2017, 22:41:50 UTC

Most atheists I know believes in evolution without the influence of a deity. No problem with that, but it is a belief.


Most people, atheists and otherwise, also believe that if you drop an apple, gravity pulls it down rather than an invisible angel pushing it. No problem with that, but it is a belief.

You can thus call anything a belief if you want to.
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Message 1857081 - Posted: 22 Mar 2017, 22:46:39 UTC - in response to Message 1857077.  

You can thus call anything a belief if you want to.

Debatable :-)

The sun will die one day - Fact or belief?
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Message 1857085 - Posted: 22 Mar 2017, 22:51:27 UTC - in response to Message 1857081.  

[The sun will die one day - Fact or belief?


The sun is already dead... geez... what could live at that temperature? :^)

Real answer: There is much well-supported, peer-reviewed and tested scientific evidence to support the assertion that it will run out of energy and "die". It may be called "factual" insomuch as there is no similar evidence otherwise, but the event has not occurred yet. Oversimplification and misuse of meanings is what leads to these "issues:".
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Message 1857090 - Posted: 22 Mar 2017, 22:59:31 UTC - in response to Message 1857085.  

Oversimplification and misuse of meanings is what leads to these "issues:".

Doesn't simplification provide a better visual image than too much academic mumbo jumbo?
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Message 1857096 - Posted: 22 Mar 2017, 23:14:11 UTC - in response to Message 1857081.  

The sun will die one day - Fact or belief?
First you have to believe it is alive.
BTW it doesn't "die". Its mass continues to exist.
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Message 1857098 - Posted: 22 Mar 2017, 23:16:45 UTC - in response to Message 1857096.  

The sun will die one day - Fact or belief?
First you have to believe it is alive.
BTW it doesn't "die". Its mass continues to exist.
..but it's energy is dead :-)
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Message 1857101 - Posted: 22 Mar 2017, 23:25:20 UTC - in response to Message 1857096.  

BTW it doesn't "die". Its mass continues to exist.


Umm first it turns into a red giant then implodes and explodes at the same time and dies as it's no longer a sun but a white or brown dwarf but it will stop being a sun so that's a death and what a bang it will produce when it gets that far into it's life/death
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Message 1857104 - Posted: 22 Mar 2017, 23:36:16 UTC - in response to Message 1857098.  

The sun will die one day - Fact or belief?
First you have to believe it is alive.
BTW it doesn't "die". Its mass continues to exist.
..but it's energy is dead :-)

Nope. Energy comes in many forms and will never die.
Most scientist belive in Big Bang.
From nothing came everything.
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Message 1857117 - Posted: 23 Mar 2017, 0:09:26 UTC - in response to Message 1857090.  
Last modified: 23 Mar 2017, 0:17:23 UTC

Oversimplification and misuse of meanings is what leads to these "issues:".

Doesn't simplification provide a better visual image than too much academic mumbo jumbo?


Probably not a "better" visual image. It is certainly easier to visualize simple things than complex ones.
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Message 1857119 - Posted: 23 Mar 2017, 0:11:36 UTC - in response to Message 1857081.  

You can thus call anything a belief if you want to.

Debatable :-)

The sun will die one day - Fact or belief?


Acceptance of facts boil down to belief. However, the facts will be facts whether we believe them or not.
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Message 1857120 - Posted: 23 Mar 2017, 0:19:36 UTC - in response to Message 1857119.  

I believe in facts.
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Message 1857129 - Posted: 23 Mar 2017, 0:45:29 UTC - in response to Message 1857098.  

The sun will die one day - Fact or belief?
First you have to believe it is alive.
BTW it doesn't "die". Its mass continues to exist.
..but it's energy is dead :-)
You disbelieve E=mc^2 Time to tie you to the stake and have a BBQ! ;-)
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Message 1857205 - Posted: 23 Mar 2017, 12:51:50 UTC - in response to Message 1857071.  
Last modified: 23 Mar 2017, 13:10:43 UTC

Everyone has a belief system, but a belief system isn't necessarily religion by definition. Stating you have no religious belief system, while accepting that you do have a belief system, doesn't automatically correlate to having a religion.

And I am using the definition of religion here exclusively:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

Definition of religion
1
a :  the state of a religious a nun in her 20th year of religion
b (1) :  the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) :  commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
:  a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic :  scrupulous conformity :  conscientiousness
4
:  a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


It takes mental gymnastics to try to fit atheism into that. There is no institutionalized system of beliefs or practices for atheism. Each atheist has their own individual set of beliefs, and even many share a set of beliefs, but that's not institutionalized by any means.


You appear to be referring to meaning #2. "A personal set OR institutionalized system...".

'Institutional' is not a requirement.

Atheism is just as much a religion as say, for instance, Roman Catholicism.
https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.
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Message 1857208 - Posted: 23 Mar 2017, 13:09:16 UTC - in response to Message 1857074.  

This is taken from American Atheists:
Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system.
Most atheists I know believes in evolution without the influence of a deity. No problem with that, but it is a belief.


A belief in evolution without the influence of a deity is not unique to atheists. Quite a number of deists I know believe that as well.
https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.
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Message 1857210 - Posted: 23 Mar 2017, 13:27:48 UTC - in response to Message 1857208.  

Quite a lot of deists can explain matters without the influence of a deity.
One for instance.
Georges Lemaître that was a Belgian priest, astronomer and professor of physics at the Catholic University of Leuven

Some more...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_scientists
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Message 1857214 - Posted: 23 Mar 2017, 13:50:28 UTC - in response to Message 1857205.  

Everyone has a belief system, but a belief system isn't necessarily religion by definition. Stating you have no religious belief system, while accepting that you do have a belief system, doesn't automatically correlate to having a religion.

And I am using the definition of religion here exclusively:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

Definition of religion
1
a :  the state of a religious a nun in her 20th year of religion
b (1) :  the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) :  commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
:  a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic :  scrupulous conformity :  conscientiousness
4
:  a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


It takes mental gymnastics to try to fit atheism into that. There is no institutionalized system of beliefs or practices for atheism. Each atheist has their own individual set of beliefs, and even many share a set of beliefs, but that's not institutionalized by any means.


You appear to be referring to meaning #2. "A personal set OR institutionalized system...".

'Institutional' is not a requirement.

Atheism is just as much a religion as say, for instance, Roman Catholicism.

I think I much prefer https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/religion
1. The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

Sometimes one needs to go to sources that don't change as winds blow and keep original meanings.
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