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Message 1975489 - Posted: 16 Jan 2019, 22:26:36 UTC - in response to Message 1975485.  

Here it is!
NATO Article 5
The key section of the treaty is Article 5. Its commitment clause defines the casus foederis. It commits each member state to consider an armed attack against one member state, in Europe or North America, to be an armed attack against them all.
It has been invoked only once in NATO history: by the United States after the September 11 attacks in 2001.

The Fox News opinions are appalling!
Not only to NATO members but also to countries that might join NATO.

Still, it is just true Military Capability regarding defending Baltic States and Eastern Europe from a Russian Invasion.

Treaty's without the military capability to enforce its provisions are nothing more than words on paper. Unless we wish to have 100's of millions of our people killed in a nuclear war.

I believe that option is not credible anymore.

You never know, but in the future, the US might need the help of other NATO countries when China attacks your western seaboard.
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Message 1975491 - Posted: 16 Jan 2019, 22:41:16 UTC - in response to Message 1975489.  

In that case the US allies might say "Sorry, you are rich country and we are not but you can certainly handle that by yourself"
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Message 1975492 - Posted: 16 Jan 2019, 22:44:04 UTC - in response to Message 1975491.  

China won't stand a chance. All those lovely citizens, as per 2nd amendment, know how to shoot. :-)
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Message 1975497 - Posted: 16 Jan 2019, 23:31:21 UTC - in response to Message 1975493.  

NATO, without the USA, does not have the International Military capabilities to fight outside of their zone.
Most countries belive in defending its own country, not engaging in warfare abroad.
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Message 1975528 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 2:10:53 UTC - in response to Message 1975525.  
Last modified: 17 Jan 2019, 2:11:26 UTC

I don't get your point.
Every continent just as Europe with all of its countries needs International Commerce and a Policeman to protect its economic interests.
But who is the International Policeman?
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Message 1975533 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 2:54:39 UTC - in response to Message 1975530.  
Last modified: 17 Jan 2019, 2:56:01 UTC

Pax Romana. Aha!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuN7kOW7iwo
So the countries in Europe are provinces to the US Empire:)
Well that make sense.
Sort of:)
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Message 1975537 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 3:17:20 UTC - in response to Message 1975536.  
Last modified: 17 Jan 2019, 3:34:06 UTC

Hmm.
Providence is a noun
1.the protective care of God or of nature as a spiritual power.
2.timely preparation for future eventualities.
Now I'm really confused...
If you mean no 1 then thank God:)

But I meant this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province
The term derives from the ancient Roman provincia, which was the major territorial and administrative unit of the Roman Empire's territorial possessions outside Italy.
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Message 1975540 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 4:39:57 UTC - in response to Message 1975537.  

Hmm.
Providence is a noun
1.the protective care of God or of nature as a spiritual power.
2.timely preparation for future eventualities.
Now I'm really confused...
If you mean no 1 then thank God:)

But I meant this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province
The term derives from the ancient Roman provincia, which was the major territorial and administrative unit of the Roman Empire's territorial possessions outside Italy.

You didn't mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Romana?

Now I'm confused.
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Message 1975574 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 14:37:31 UTC - in response to Message 1975525.  

For a former history teacher, you do spout asinine bovine excrement. The "What if's" of history is more suited to fiction writers. What cannot be understood is how you fixate on China & Russia while your own country is a total mess at the moment.

The past happened & is unchangeable, so stop attempting to do so.
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Message 1975583 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 15:35:37 UTC - in response to Message 1975582.  

What name calling would that be? Would you care to quote the relevant point in that post that highlights said name calling?
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Message 1975587 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 15:55:40 UTC - in response to Message 1975586.  

Asinine bovine excrement is NOT name calling but a statement. It's fascinating to see you twist & turn.

Back on topic. You were asked this question on other threads & also recently on this one, however I will ask it again.

What European nation or group of European nations requested the government of the United States to re-commission their 2nd fleet to protect Europe?
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Message 1975593 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 16:15:01 UTC - in response to Message 1975590.  

In logic, the term statement is variously understood to mean either: (a) a meaningful declarative sentence that is true or false, or. (b) the assertion that is made by a true or false declarative sentence.
In my case, it is true because there have been numerous occasions where you stated you were a history teacher. Are you now declaring that fact is actually false?

You tirade regarding Europe Russia & China is becoming obsessive. When did Europe request the re-commissioning of your 2nd fleet to protect them?

BTW, try to answer the question. :-)
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Message 1975605 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 17:09:03 UTC - in response to Message 1975600.  


Can you for the first time. Please give specific examples regarding my posts regarding International Commerce, Russia Military Strength, NATO Military Strength, etc. and not your name calling needs?
Europe needs International Commerce and an International Policeman to protect its economic interests.

BTW: We were neither defending ourselves, nor cared regarding another typical and stupid European War. Which we now refer to as WW2.

Until... On December 11, 1941 Hitler declared war against the USA. If he did not not, we would have just fought the Japanese Empire who attacked us. Leaving Europe to either a victorious Hitler. Or if Russia could defeat Germany, to a victorious Stalin.

Today, you now have to deal with two expanding and lawless powerful and getting more powerful Countries. As the USA can 'sit' in the America's and watch Europe kiss Putin's or his replacement butt while watching China's expansion.
Once again, your obsession with Europe, China & Russia is fascinating. So the USA can "sit & watch"? WHO requested that your Atlantic 2nd fleet be re-commissioned?
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Message 1975608 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 17:32:02 UTC

As you continuously fail to answer straight forward questions Clyde, I'll answer one for you & once the answer is provided, please explain to us, WHO in Europe requested it & why.

The United States Second Fleet is a numbered fleet in the United States Navy responsible for the East Coast and North Atlantic Ocean. The Fleet was established following World War II. In September 2011, Second Fleet was deactivated in view of the United States Government's perception that the potential military threat posed by Russia had diminished. On 4 May 2018, Admiral John M. Richardson, the Chief of Naval Operations (United States Navy), announced plans to re-establish Second Fleet amid heightened tensions between NATO and Russia. It was re-established on 24 August 2018, with Vice Admiral Andrew “Woody” Lewis in command (United States Navy). Rear Adm. Doug Perry, director of joint and fleet operations at Fleet Forces Command (United States Navy), was quoted in early November 2018 that the fleet was reformed because '..the Navy needed a commander to direct sustained combat operations in the Atlantic'. Perry made clear that the stand-up sends the message that “we understand we are in a battle for the Atlantic, and we will contest it
The info in brackets have been added by me, the rest is a valid & true statement.
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Message 1975612 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 18:07:27 UTC - in response to Message 1975610.  

.The American people have no interest, unlike Vietnam, in losing 50,000, 100,000 or more young men and women to protect Europe.
So the 90,000 personnel of the 2nd fleet don't count as they are not land based personnel?
As for protecting Europe - Rubbish!
It was stated in 1898 that "We must build up our navy to be powerful enough to "safeguard" our domestic & International economic interests"

YOU are not protecting Europe & you never did. All that was done was protecting your "economic interests". You are not & never had been the world's policeman for that very same reason.

So as a by-product of that 1898 statement & confirmed by subsequent events, Europe was automatically protected & pays towards the cost. The day America plays fair on International trade will be the day you can demand that NATO countries increase their contributions. Since 1898, it has always been & will continue to be America First.
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Message 1975616 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 18:24:48 UTC - in response to Message 1975613.  

Believing that today's American people will go to war against a Russian land invasion of the Baltic States or Eastern Europe, is not warranted.
Quite agree. However, you cannot show anywhere on these threads where anyone has stated that they should.
As for China, wasn't it America that opened the door to their economy? Another "International economic interest"?
The United States banned trade with China until the early 1970s. Thereafter trade grew rapidly, and after the full normalization of diplomatic and commercial relations in 1979, the United States became the second largest importer to China and in 1986 was China's third largest partner in overall trade.
So as you continue to state that China is becoming not only a powerful economy but a "lawless" one, shouldn't you be concentrating on protecting America rather that worry about Europe?
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Message 1975617 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 18:28:04 UTC

As for the U.S. 2nd fleet.
They don't even mention NATO and the obligations being a NATO member.
http://navylive.dodlive.mil/2018/08/24/six-things-you-need-to-know-about-u-s-2nd-fleet/
I seriously doubt that their fleet was requested by NATO members in those regions, North Atlantic Ocean, that the U.S. 2nd fleet are now to "help" them.
No. NATO according to the US is to protect American interests, nothing else.
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Message 1975618 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 18:33:08 UTC - in response to Message 1975617.  

No. NATO according to the US is to protect American interests, nothing else.
True but a by product of those interests just happens to be the protection of Europe via their "International economic interests", which I believe it is a fair question that America asks of NATO countries - Increase your contributions & as I just stated, play fair on International trade & it will a very valid request. ATM, I think Europe's answer to America should be "kiss my butt". :-)
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Message 1975625 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 19:10:29 UTC - in response to Message 1975618.  

ATM, I think Europe's answer to America should be "kiss my butt". :-)
I think the Secretary General of NATO, Jens Stoltenberg, wouldn't be so explicit:)
http:///en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jens_Stoltenberg
Luckily there are some like Jens and in the NATO command that are sensible.
Yes. Even some Americans. If not fired by Trump that is...
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Message 1975626 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 19:33:05 UTC - in response to Message 1975625.  

Address not valid. You've put 1 / too many.
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