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Message 1883729 - Posted: 14 Aug 2017, 2:59:09 UTC - in response to Message 1883727.  
Last modified: 14 Aug 2017, 3:02:34 UTC

How would you address the present problem then?

Do you really expect a cogent answer from Clyde ?
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Message 1883733 - Posted: 14 Aug 2017, 3:29:51 UTC - in response to Message 1883721.  

I do.

Knowledge is power.

It will not immediately stop Kim. It will plant the seeds for stopping Kim from with in.

The weak will always bow but the strong will get stronger and fight for freedom.

Your reality is not mine.

Anyone listening will be, at best, consigned to a Work Camp. Or worse, tortured before killed.

Understand that no one, in these enslaved societies, trusts their work associates, neighbors or friends.

That is the reality.

Back to the Present Problem: Maniac Kim.


Anyone listening must first be caught listening.
It took some time for Winston to be caught.
Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.
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Message 1883771 - Posted: 14 Aug 2017, 11:03:37 UTC - in response to Message 1883769.  
Last modified: 14 Aug 2017, 11:04:19 UTC

Any thoughts regarding the above?
Why ask that when thoughts have been provided only for you to twist what people say & when confronted with a question, you tend to ignore it.

Again why ask that when you have provided a perfectly reasonable answer:
There are no solutions, as mature and intelligent people understand. That don't carry the seeds of disaster.


"Ordinary" posters know that there are only 3 options (which your answer takes into account):

A: Diplomacy
B: Attack
C: Do nothing
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Message 1883774 - Posted: 14 Aug 2017, 11:15:15 UTC

China bans North Korea iron, lead, coal imports as part of U.N. sanctions
BEIJING — China announced a ban on imports of iron ore, iron, lead and coal from North Korea on Monday, cutting an important economic lifeline for the Pyongyang regime, as it moved to implement a package of sanctions put together by the United Nations Security Council.

The ban will take effect from Tuesday, the Ministry of Commerce announced.
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Message 1883776 - Posted: 14 Aug 2017, 11:18:32 UTC - in response to Message 1883774.  

Hmm, wonder what little C will say about that as it will only be the people that will suffer rather than the political & military leaders.
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Message 1883778 - Posted: 14 Aug 2017, 11:22:18 UTC - in response to Message 1883775.  

Sorry Sirius B...

This is much more complicated, with possible terrible consequence, than a Simple A B C.

What? Sorry for being caught out? More complicated? You did not state that when you stated this:
There are no solutions, as mature and intelligent people understand that don't carry the seeds of disaster.

Care to clarify those complications?
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Message 1883780 - Posted: 14 Aug 2017, 11:28:38 UTC - in response to Message 1883777.  

Hmm, wonder what little C will say about that as it will only be the people that will suffer rather than the political & military leaders.

Again more Name Calling and Personal attacks from Sirius B..
No just following American culture. After all, you do name people big/little as well as objects. For example:
Big Mac
Big Jake
Big Enos
Little Enos

AS Big C exiled himself, are you vying to upgrade yourself?
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Message 1883782 - Posted: 14 Aug 2017, 11:35:35 UTC
Last modified: 14 Aug 2017, 11:36:27 UTC

I have no idea who little c, is if you are referring to another poster can we please out of common courtesy use the name they post with in a normal sized font.

If you find you cannot do this then I am afraid post will start to disappear .

Just because you disagree with someone there is no need to be rude, they, after all, in the long term, may proved to be right, or of course not.

Lets be civil please.
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Message 1883814 - Posted: 14 Aug 2017, 15:59:52 UTC

IMHO....

The US should make official in the UN and to NoKo that response to overt aggression by the Kim Regime will be specific. If a Nuclear armed warhead strikes on or near any US Territory or Allies Territory we will respond by eliminating the ability of NoKo to generate electric power(60% Hydro Electric 35% Coal aprox.). http://www.geni.org/globalenergy/library/national_energy_grid/north-korea/index.shtml

At the same time destroying their Nuclear and Missile development and launch sites.

This could be done in 15-20 minutes with Tomahawks and a few well placed MOABs. Most importantly it would be done without resorting to Nuclear capability. The effect would be primarily on the 'privileged' class in NoKo as the majority do without electric power for the majority of their day already.

By showing this restraint despite a Nuclear strike by NoKo the Chinese, hopefully, would be encouraged to 'step in' (meaning using the troops they have been building on the border under the premise of aid and relief)to prevent further action on their doorstep.

Of course if there is major loss of life due to a NoKo 1st strike, the gloves are off. The best position the world can take now is warn and wait. If the pressure of sanctions works, wonderful, but the end result and goal should be a Nuclear free Korean Peninsula.

A true puppet NoKo, less independent from Beijing would be preferable to the current regime. But then we stir the thousands year old pot of Sino/Korean/Nipponese racial tension resulting from invasions and conquests both ways(the last in the 1930's).

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
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Message 1883828 - Posted: 14 Aug 2017, 16:46:28 UTC - in response to Message 1883814.  

How would you address the present problem then?

Thank you. This is what I was looking for. Personal thoughts like I shared, not some one else's.

IMHO....

The US should make official in the UN and to NoKo that response to overt aggression by the Kim Regime will be specific. If a Nuclear armed warhead strikes on or near any US Territory or Allies Territory we will respond by eliminating the ability of NoKo to generate electric power(60% Hydro Electric 35% Coal aprox.). http://www.geni.org/globalenergy/library/national_energy_grid/north-korea/index.shtml

At the same time destroying their Nuclear and Missile development and launch sites.

This could be done in 15-20 minutes with Tomahawks and a few well placed MOABs. Most importantly it would be done without resorting to Nuclear capability. The effect would be primarily on the 'privileged' class in NoKo as the majority do without electric power for the majority of their day already.

By showing this restraint despite a Nuclear strike by NoKo the Chinese, hopefully, would be encouraged to 'step in' (meaning using the troops they have been building on the border under the premise of aid and relief)to prevent further action on their doorstep.

Of course if there is major loss of life due to a NoKo 1st strike, the gloves are off. The best position the world can take now is warn and wait. If the pressure of sanctions works, wonderful, but the end result and goal should be a Nuclear free Korean Peninsula.

A true puppet NoKo, less independent from Beijing would be preferable to the current regime. But then we stir the thousands year old pot of Sino/Korean/Nipponese racial tension resulting from invasions and conquests both ways(the last in the 1930's).

...
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Message 1883837 - Posted: 14 Aug 2017, 17:25:18 UTC - in response to Message 1883774.  

China bans North Korea iron, lead, coal imports as part of U.N. sanctions
BEIJING — China announced a ban on imports of iron ore, iron, lead and coal from North Korea on Monday, cutting an important economic lifeline for the Pyongyang regime, as it moved to implement a package of sanctions put together by the United Nations Security Council.

The ban will take effect from Tuesday, the Ministry of Commerce announced.

They will just start cranking out fake $100 bill again. They were so good that most currency experts in the USA couldn't distinguish the counterfeits from the real bills.

Diplomacy will not work any better on Kim than it did with Hitler. The bad guys are just buying more time to make their WMDs work. I wonder if everyone in NK believes the state propaganda. If so Kim can launch a missile, claim it hit the USA, and that he killed millions of us. Anyone in NK disputing his claim would be arrested and executed. A real life 1984 scenario.

All I know is that the longer we wait and let the diplomats run the show the worse it's going to be when the s*#t hits the fan.
Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.
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Message 1883884 - Posted: 14 Aug 2017, 20:25:25 UTC - in response to Message 1883837.  

China bans North Korea iron, lead, coal imports as part of U.N. sanctions
BEIJING — China announced a ban on imports of iron ore, iron, lead and coal from North Korea on Monday, cutting an important economic lifeline for the Pyongyang regime, as it moved to implement a package of sanctions put together by the United Nations Security Council.

The ban will take effect from Tuesday, the Ministry of Commerce announced.

They will just start cranking out fake $100 bill again. They were so good that most currency experts in the USA couldn't distinguish the counterfeits from the real bills.

Diplomacy will not work any better on Kim than it did with Hitler. The bad guys are just buying more time to make their WMDs work. I wonder if everyone in NK believes the state propaganda. If so Kim can launch a missile, claim it hit the USA, and that he killed millions of us. Anyone in NK disputing his claim would be arrested and executed. A real life 1984 scenario.

All I know is that the longer we wait and let the diplomats run the show the worse it's going to be when the s*#t hits the fan.



Yes, but....

There is(are) NO way(s) out that don't involve mass death of civilians.

What many here (and elsewhere) seem to forget is that Kim Jong-un is somewhat trapped into doing what he is doing, and does not have the degree of independence that one might expect from a supreme leader.

Kim Il-sung (pretty much the founder of the DPRK) had/has a rather large personality cult surrounding him.

His son and successor Kim Jong-il has a somewhat smaller personality cult.

The current supreme leader (grandson of Kim Il-sung, and son of Kim Jong-il_) Kim Jong-un's personality cult is somewhat weak, perhaps non-existent. Reports from some DPRK defectors say he is even somewhat disliked.

Kim Jong-il instituted a policy of 'military first', presumably to ensure the loyalty of the military and prevent a military coup. However, under Kim Jong-un, this has effectively turned into control of the supreme leader by the DPRK military general staff, and they are really keen on not only acquiring the latest and greatest war-toys but also using them.

On to that list of 3 options posted earlier...

1. Diplomacy -- We have had diplomacy going on with DPRK since the middle of the Korean War (1950 - 1953). It hasn't worked. Appeasement, as you indicated won't work with the DPRK, just as it didn't work with pre-WWII Germany. All either will do will be to give the DPRK more time to perfect their WMDs and will be seen as a sign of weakness (thus further encouraging them).

2. Attack -- The DPRK hates Japan (occupied Korea 1910 thru end of WWII), and the USA (helped RoK defeat them after the Stalin-authorized invasion of RoK that turned into the Korean War). The DPRK also somewhat dislikes the PRC and will really do so if the PRC's announced import bans on DPRK iron, lead, and coal actually are effective instead of being just words on paper.

If something causes an attack by the USA, RoK, or really anyone else on the DPRK, the DPRK will almost certainly flush everything they have against RoK, Japan, and the USA. Even without that, a successful attack on the DPRK will cause mass civilian causalities on the population of the DPRK.

3. Do nothing -- This will be seen as cowardice on our part and will do nothing but embolden the DPRK leadership to an even higher level of crazy.

Remember this, the organic fertilizer IS going to contact the ventilation unit... SOON. No way around it.

Dealing with the DPRK military is not going to be very easy. They have the 4th largest active duty military in the world, behind only the PRC, India, and the USA. The DPRK has the 2nd largest total military in the world (including reserve units and paramilitary units) behind only the RoK. The DPRK has the highest number of military personnel per capita in the world, both actives (47.4 per 1000 citizens) and total (305.7 per 1000 citizens). They will be a tough nut to crack without pretty much exterminating the DPRK population, which is not something that I believe any of us want to do.

The DPRK has 1000's of artillery pieces aimed across its southern border at the RoK, a great many of them at the capitol of the RoK. The DPRK also has a great number of conventionally armed missiles, aimed at RoK and Japan. The DPRK has tested ICBMs. Estimates on their range I have seen indicate Kansas City is certainly within their range, and there is a possibility that NYC and Washington DC is at the edge of it. The DPRK has nuclear warheads, is close if not already there to having thermonuclear warheads. The DPRK is quickly working towards mounting (thermo)nuclear warheads to its missiles. The DPRK also has an extensive biological and chemical weapons arsenal. ANY further delay doing Diplomacy or Ignore will just give them time to make their aresnal more deadly.

We have a choice to make. Should we just give in and let the DPRK militarily attack our allies (Japan and the RoK), and possibly us, causing mass civilian causalities? Or, should we do something about it ASAP, also causing mass civilian causalities? There are NO 'good' choices to make here, only what in our best guess is the lesser of two evil options.
https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.
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Message 1883889 - Posted: 14 Aug 2017, 20:50:19 UTC - in response to Message 1883884.  

Excellent post MK. Also thanks for expanding my 1,2,3 options.

I only simplified because as an "ordinary" citizen there really is not much I can say or do to prevent it. Once sufficient forces arrived in Korea, UN forces should have pushed the NoK's & Chinese back to the Yalu river then stopped. That is just my opinion, which I no doubt that "bored keyboard warriors" will attack.
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Message 1884001 - Posted: 15 Aug 2017, 11:26:53 UTC

Kim opts to wait but the threats are still there.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40931775
The report on state news agency KCNA said Kim Jong-un "examined the plan for a long time" and discussed it with senior military officials.
The commander of North Korea's strategic force was now merely waiting for orders "after rounding off the preparations for the enveloping fire at Guam".
But, crucially, the report also said that Mr Kim would watch the US before making any decision, signalling an apparent deceleration in the provocative rhetoric.
Correspondents say that after days of menacing threats it might seem that Kim Jong-un could be in the mood to finally hit the pause button - but in a nation as secretive as North Korea, one can never be sure.
Analysts say it could simply mean Pyongyang is not fully ready to launch an attack on Guam, so it could just be buying more time.
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Message 1884012 - Posted: 15 Aug 2017, 13:20:56 UTC

China, for their good, the good of the region, and the good of the world. Must be the first to initiate the 'removal' of Kim. Awaiting the USA to do the 'Dirty Work' carries greater risks.


IMHO

That goes counter to ages old Chinese philosophy, they have always taken the long view and overt action is not in the cards unless they are directly threatened. And that includes their 'honor' being threatened which is why they took the position they did on the import ban.

I think all agree(except NoKo) that Kim must go, but China must be feel very endangered before they will be the remover.

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
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Message 1884021 - Posted: 15 Aug 2017, 13:44:47 UTC - in response to Message 1884001.  

Kim opts to wait but the threats are still there.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40931775
Analysts say it could simply mean Pyongyang is not fully ready to launch an attack on Guam, so it could just be buying more time.

Besides a delay of a couple weeks means the launch can happen in the middle of the joint military exercise.
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Message 1884025 - Posted: 15 Aug 2017, 13:51:49 UTC

Another very large elephant in the room is the coming Winter Olympic Games, Just 100 miles from the NoKo border and with the whole world watching, what an opportune time for a spoiled brat to 'act out'.....

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
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Message 1884052 - Posted: 16 Aug 2017, 2:02:16 UTC

I still don't see anything significant happening in this situation unless Kim or Trump do something really inflammatory beyond just words(which they might), but I'm cautiously optimistic things will quiet down.
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Message 1884096 - Posted: 16 Aug 2017, 3:56:35 UTC - in response to Message 1884052.  

I still don't see anything significant happening in this situation unless Kim or Trump do something really inflammatory beyond just words(which they might), but I'm cautiously optimistic things will quiet down.

The Provocation https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-usa-south-korea-idUSKBN1AR1I3 in six days.
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Message 1884100 - Posted: 16 Aug 2017, 4:06:51 UTC - in response to Message 1884096.  

I still don't see anything significant happening in this situation unless Kim or Trump do something really inflammatory beyond just words(which they might), but I'm cautiously optimistic things will quiet down.

The Provocation https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-usa-south-korea-idUSKBN1AR1I3 in six days.

Yes, well, I'm just not all that gloom and doom about it. I agree the kindling is there for WWIII, but this situation is not like WWII.
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