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SciManStev Send message Joined: 20 Jun 99 Posts: 6651 Credit: 121,090,076 RAC: 0 |
Just a quick note. I am not taking a position on the second amendment, and I do have guns. When 911 happened, some 3000 people were killed. We went to war, and killed over 100,000, many were collateral damage. Due to the high gun availability in this country, 33,000 are killed every year. It does seem to me that 33,000 gun deaths a year is a very heavy price to pay for having guns, especially after we freaked out when in 1 year 3000 were killed by terrorists. Steve Warning, addicted to SETI crunching! Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group. GPUUG Website |
kittyman Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51468 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004 |
Maybe it is a high price to pay, Steve. But how would you feel if the 2nd amendment were repealed, and you were forced to give up your guns and with them the right to defend yourself? Always remember this truism..... 'When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.' "Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Just a quick note. I saw a British documentary from 2014 the other day. Children and weapons are for most two things that do not belong together, but according to some families in the United States is not only a fact but also a right for children to have weapons. The program shows how a 4 year old little girl get a fully functioning rifle as a gift. When she did not immediately wanted to shoot, the family was called in to help the parents to get the little girl to shoot the first shot. In another family had a 9-year-old boy a private hunting rifle and went out one morning to shoot rabbits. He was later found dead with a bullet hole in the forehead. The accident happened to the 9-year-old when he would jump over a stream, limped and the piston bumped on the ground and the shot went off in the middle of the forehead. The family did not think they had any guilt in the child's death. Bad luck! Clearly that small children should have their own guns. |
JaundicedEye Send message Joined: 14 Mar 12 Posts: 5375 Credit: 30,870,693 RAC: 1 |
you claim to be an AmericanWhy are you constantly passive/aggressive in almost every post? I stated that was a question, are you personally disavowing the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America? As to the 'organized militia' we get into the meaning of 'is' again. 5 people who meet regularly to train in firearm safety and use for defense could be defined an 'organized militia'. And yes that is on my regular schedule monthly. as they are perishable skills. But to make the term moot, SCOTUS I believe has ruled that as irrelevant to the 2nd's right to keep and bear arms by an individual. Additionally, as a draft can be invoked by the Congress it can be argued that every American resident is a member of the militia. @ Steve, I'm sure you are aware of the composition of that figure on 'gun deaths' closer examination will reveal the majority of aggressive gun violence is with illegally owned and possessed weapons. Also a major component of that number are suicides, which is a seprate tragic issue in America. Bad luck! Clearly that small children should have their own guns.I know you're being sarcastic there Jann, but it touches a sensitive nerve in mature legal gun owners. Responsible Americans store their weapons in Safes or Vaults along with the ammunition. To do otherwise in most States is a Felony offense if it results in a death. Child's toy guns have been in society worldwide for many centuries. I believe it is far more damaging to allow children to consume a steady diet of gun violence in Movies, Television programs, Graphic(comic) books, Video Games and Music than to play 'cowboy' or 'soldier'. Repeated exposure to simulated violent death desensitizes the mind to it's reality. I'm climbing down from the soapbox now................... "Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)> |
betreger Send message Joined: 29 Jun 99 Posts: 11358 Credit: 29,581,041 RAC: 66 |
are you personally disavowing the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America? Jaundice, no I'm not but I strongly object to the loosey goosey way it is currently implemented. Steve pointed out what is wrong and you have theories about why. All the victims get is thoughts and prayers, not viable solutions. Clyde takes the viewpoint the the specie is too stupid to learn from the past, I don't. |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
Why do teachers choose to work in cities where they cannot afford accommodation, why not go somewhere else? Of course, one with work can always find other work. And it's always easy to then move to the place where the other work exists. I mean, moving is free and we use molecular transportation to do it, right? RIP John Glenn, who explored from the coast of the entire Earth and then, when serving, did not serve for the party of ancient grandness. Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes. |
JaundicedEye Send message Joined: 14 Mar 12 Posts: 5375 Credit: 30,870,693 RAC: 1 |
The viable solution is to enforce the laws now on the books of every State in the Union including Federal law. As I've said before, 'Stop and Frisk' would (and has) rid the city streets of unlawfully owned and possessed weapons. There are very few legally licensed carriers who would object to this 'violation' of their privacy as they understand that illegal weapons and their owners are the problem not the law abiding citizens who follow the procedures to obtain a license. The 'loosey goosey' aspect of 2nd Amendment application is due to the failure to enforce current laws. Outlawing ownership would only affect those legal owners, it would make no difference to those who already choose to break the law. If a gun is used in a crime there should be no 'early release' as the DOJ currently advocates. Do the Crime, Do the Time! "Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)> |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
Mark Twain. Where are you?. Woodlawn Cemetery. Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes. |
KWSN - MajorKong Send message Joined: 5 Jan 00 Posts: 2892 Credit: 1,499,890 RAC: 0 |
As to the 'organized militia' we get into the meaning of 'is' again. 5 people who meet regularly to train in firearm safety and use for defense could be defined an 'organized militia'. And yes that is on my regular schedule monthly. as they are perishable skills. But to make the term moot, SCOTUS I believe has ruled that as irrelevant to the 2nd's right to keep and bear arms by an individual. Additionally, as a draft can be invoked by the Congress it can be argued that every American resident is a member of the militia. JaundicedEye, Let us examine Federal Law.
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title10/html/USCODE-2011-title10-subtitleA-partI-chap13-sec311.htm
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2009-title32/html/USCODE-2009-title32-chap3-sec313.htm From this examination of the Law, we can see that while the members of the Militia do not include *everyone*, it does include a much greater number of people than most people seem to be aware of. Population of US 18 to 44... 112,806,642. 96.7 males per 100 females. Gives (roughly) 55.5 million men in this age group... roughly... It would be interesting to see the actual data. https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-03.pdf Found it... almost. Not including the 17 year olds, or the women... 56.7 million men, 18 to 44. Source: http://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?pid=DEC_10_SF1_QTP1&prodType=table Your 'Group of 5', assuming they meet the requirements, would be part of the 'unorganized militia' (unless they are already in the 'organized militia' thru membership in the National Guard, etc.). As to your argument about 'everyone'... In the interests of eliminating sex discrimination, a strong case can be made to eliminate the distinction between males and females in USC title 10 section 311. In the interests of reducing/eliminating age discrimination, a case can be made to extend, possibly eliminate the upper age limit. But, while a case can be made re: 'all US Residents' for the reason you gave of 'the Draft', that one would be on a bit more unstable of a footing, in my opinion. https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE #Texit Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016. Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power. |
SciManStev Send message Joined: 20 Jun 99 Posts: 6651 Credit: 121,090,076 RAC: 0 |
I guess my point was that after 911, the Patriot act came, and then homeland security. We lost a lot of privacy, and ended up killing thousands to protect us from terrorists. What did we do to protect us from ourselves, who every year kill many more than the terrorists ever did? As I said, I am not taking a stance, but the irony of losing freedom, and killing thousands to fight terrorists over 3000 deaths, while we live with 33,000 gun deaths a year seems a bit odd. My guns are secure, and can't be used as defense in case of a home invasion. I do have other means that can be quite effective. Steve Warning, addicted to SETI crunching! Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group. GPUUG Website |
SciManStev Send message Joined: 20 Jun 99 Posts: 6651 Credit: 121,090,076 RAC: 0 |
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/27/health/u-s-most-mass-shootings/index.html Just for information. Steve Warning, addicted to SETI crunching! Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group. GPUUG Website |
JaundicedEye Send message Joined: 14 Mar 12 Posts: 5375 Credit: 30,870,693 RAC: 1 |
Neither side will convince the other of it's position on guns, so I'm done discussing it. Everyone is welcome to believe what they will, and I sincerely hope that I and everyone else will never have to discharge a firearm in self defense or for any other reason other than sport or hunting. But if the defensive need arises, I will not hesitate. Accept it or set your hair on fire, it makes no difference to me........ By the way Steve, news story today says that death from Heroin overdoses have now exceeded firearms homicides in the US. Just for information. "Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)> |
SciManStev Send message Joined: 20 Jun 99 Posts: 6651 Credit: 121,090,076 RAC: 0 |
No problem from me. That is exactly what I expected. Steve Warning, addicted to SETI crunching! Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group. GPUUG Website |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
@WK, Ok, one last attempt at explaining this and then I'll just admit to myself I'm crap at explaining things to others and give up. Here's another piece that says your claim of earning figures are questionable and that you need to consider age ranges when talking about income. We are caught in some sort of parallel argument. I'm trying to explain WHY we are talking about 2 different things but I'm not getting through. Original Argument: Bobby posted a link that had the unemployment percentage @4.6%. I posted what I thought was the median remuneration of the 95.4% that ARE employed. Any attempt to exclude a subgroup - as you are - will automatically alter the 95.4% number. IOW you are moving the goalposts. By including all age ranges in your estimate... It doesn't matter what I think I should include or what you think you should include. We are searching for the median of those 95.4%. Whatever people that number includes WE both HAVE to include in our calculation. Now I'm going to pretend you actually understood me this time just so I can finally point out 2 things: 1) If you think the median remuneration of the 95.4% is a crap stat then you must also consider the 4.6% stat to be lacking for all the same reasons. The two numbers are inexorably linked. 2) I already posted a graph that helps a bit to explain why teachers in San Fran can't afford to live in San Fran (didn't care much for your kneejerk answer to that one though). @Bobby the sudden divergence of the GDP to personal income helps explain the disparity between "the economy is looking fine" and "life in the real-world sucks". But what I haven't posted yet - because we can't agree on a simple median - is why the 4.6% unemployment number might be "gamed". Here's a chart from one of WK's links: I'd say there's something rotten in Denmark. Then there's the argument WK wants to have Which is full employment numbers.... I get why that's useful and you like it so much. But in today's world that 40k number is useless without a minimum of two more charts: - percentage of said full-time employment over time - median remuneration over time However there are also plenty of (completely) different charts like the one you posted on upward mobility that all paint the same picture. And no, I don't have a link ;) |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
Gary's flippin' out about a tax-stamp No, but you sure were triggered by the mention of one! IOW I'm implying you were in a bit of an ad-hominem-attack/post-truth-witch-hunt mode. |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19012 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
By using total numbers of earners for your median figures, and your reference to unemployed. What category do young people in full time education go into? They don't go in the unemployed section, if they chose not to take a part time job. Should young people still in training, where one would expect them to be paid at a lower rate be included in your figure for median wage. I would argue it distorts the real figure for fully trained employed people. Those are some of the reasons why I think restricting the figures to full time employees in the 25 to 65 bracket is the only real way to get a meaningful benchmark figure. Similar reasons will apply for not including those over 65, even though some of us still pay obscene amounts of tax. |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
I give up :) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30608 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Gary's flippin' out about a tax-stamp I was triggered because of Guy's implication the restriction was from the interstate commerce clause, when it originates from the power to lay duties on foreign goods. I believe Guy thinks the commerce clause is superfluous verbiage. |
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