Immigrant Migrant Refugee SUPREMACY-Is RACIST DEPLORABLE & TREASONOUS KKKOMMIE KKKryBABY KKKLOWNS with Their Continuing TREASONOUS Behaviours, will LOSE All Elections if They Keep Spouting TREASONOUS Free Speech

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Profile JaundicedEye Project Donor
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Message 1834674 - Posted: 7 Dec 2016, 20:12:11 UTC
Last modified: 7 Dec 2016, 20:13:34 UTC

Here we go again,

<ed>found this
http://money.cnn.com/infographic/economy/countries-with-higher-wages-than-united-states/index.html?iid=surge-story-summary


Apples vs. Oranges with no definition of either fruit............what comprises the average vs the minimum figure? Is Government supplied healthecare and pension benefits and other subsidies included in the Average annual wage .? Are these figures before or after Taxes? What is the cost of living in each Country(that would provide a good measurement of actual standard of living).

Clinton News Network doesn't seem to provide links to sources or explanation of how the average was derived. Just a "pretty" little display....

Just say'n....

" : |

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
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Message 1834685 - Posted: 7 Dec 2016, 20:58:19 UTC - in response to Message 1834674.  
Last modified: 7 Dec 2016, 21:00:30 UTC

Here we go again,
<ed>found this
http://money.cnn.com/infographic/economy/countries-with-higher-wages-than-united-states/index.html?iid=surge-story-summary

Apples vs. Oranges with no definition of either fruit............what comprises the average vs the minimum figure? Is Government supplied healthecare and pension benefits and other subsidies included in the Average annual wage .? Are these figures before or after Taxes? What is the cost of living in each Country(that would provide a good measurement of actual standard of living).
Clinton News Network doesn't seem to provide links to sources or explanation of how the average was derived. Just a "pretty" little display....
Just say'n....
" : |

Hehe:)
It's impossible to compare countries with higher wages than the US and draw som conclusions from that.
CNN draws the conclusion that every OECD countries have mininum wages.
Not true.
CNN also shows the average annual wage.
But that would mean if for instance Bill Gates moved to Iceland their average annual wage would maybe be doubled:)

And as you're saying.
Cost of living and taxes are very much different in the countries compared.
Mark Twain. Where are you?.
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Message 1834692 - Posted: 7 Dec 2016, 21:20:10 UTC - in response to Message 1834629.  

Ah, thank you John. You just gave me a quick & easy way to get rid of Bobby & WinterNight in a language they might actually understand!
- - - - - - - -

"half of all working Americans ended up making less than 30k a year IIRC"
-Alex Storey

The statement is accurate and there’s nothing significant missing.

If you had said the income of more than half of the people is less than the average income, I would agree with you. I just think your number is on low side.

@Jaundiced
Care to name which party and its supporters opposes minimum wage increase?
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Message 1834711 - Posted: 7 Dec 2016, 23:15:51 UTC

I oppose a minimum wage , period.
I am for the rights of people to work where they wish and for a price that they can negotiate.
The minimum wage has always been bad for productivity and a cause of inflation.
The wages I was being paid 40 years ago would equal 10 times what that same job pays in today's dollars.


The high pitched whine of the liberal poster is just too much to bother with.
This Politics thread is no longer worth reading.
I'm done. I'll go look for nice people in a reasonable thread.
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Message 1834715 - Posted: 7 Dec 2016, 23:24:14 UTC - in response to Message 1834629.  

Ah, thank you John. You just gave me a quick & easy way to get rid of Bobby & WinterNight in a language they might actually understand!
- - - - - - - -

"half of all working Americans ended up making less than 30k a year IIRC"
-Alex Storey

The statement is accurate and there’s nothing significant missing.

Yes, JaudicedEye posted some data from an untrustworthy source and John dismissed it as utter guff after finding better data from a more trusted source. Your 30k was originally unattributed. Yes adding IIRC might have helped avoid the to-ing and fro-ing, (IIRC I was the one that suggested you could have added that caveat at the beginning, and Gary may be right in thinking the conversation could have followed a different path if you had).

BTW, among the many errors in JaundicedEye's post were references to the counties of Brooklyn and Manhattan, there is no county of Brooklyn in NYC, the NYC Borough of Brooklyn is Kings County, the NYC borough of Manhattan is New York County. He also said Clinton won 16 of the 62 NYS counties, finally something that's accurate:

1) Albany 74,775 vs 44,227
2) Bronx (*) 318,403 vs 34,424
3) Clinton 13,446 vs 13,181
4) Columbia 13,123 vs 12,756
5) Erie 197,686 vs 176,614
6) Kings (*) 595,086 vs 133,653
7) Monroe 174,063 vs 128,871
8) Nassau 307,326 vs 275,479
9) New York (*) 515,481 vs 8,935
10) Onondaga 102,915 vs 78,277
11) Queens (*) 473,389 vs 138,550
12) Rockland 63,454 vs 57,148
13) Schenectady 30,870 vs 27,268
14) Tompkins 25,555 vs 9,647
15) Ulster 40,010 vs 32,962
16) Westchester 245,670 vs 121,643

Combined these 16 counties accounted for 3,191,252 vs 1,293,635 from NYS's total of 4,149,500 vs 2,639,994, or about 2/3rds of all NYS votes (very roughly 2/3rds of the vote, from 1/4th of the counties). Quite a few of those 46 counties Trump won in NYS had fewer than 20,000 votes cast in total (Hamilton had the least with 2,756). I'm uncertain of the significance of counties won in a presidential election, other than as an indication of how the population is distributed between a small number of highly populated democratic leaning counties and a large number of low population republican leaning counties.

* Counties in NYC, the 5th county in NYC did go to Trump, Richmond (aka Staten Island) 67,561 vs 95,612.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1834718 - Posted: 7 Dec 2016, 23:48:08 UTC

Would a trump supporter dare read the enemy's description of themselves?
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/12/report-majority-arab-youth-rejects-radicalism-161204112234602.html
NO!
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Message 1834719 - Posted: 7 Dec 2016, 23:53:06 UTC - in response to Message 1834711.  

The minimum wage has always been bad for productivity and a cause of inflation.

The cause of inflation is the Federal Debt and that causes the minimum wage.
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Message 1834720 - Posted: 7 Dec 2016, 23:55:18 UTC - in response to Message 1834715.  

I'm uncertain of the significance of counties won in a presidential election, other than as an indication of how the population is distributed between a small number of highly populated democratic leaning counties and a large number of low population republican leaning counties.

Perhaps it is as simple as that. Republicans can't stand other people so they live in wide open spaces, Democrats don't mind other people so they live in cities.
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Message 1834722 - Posted: 7 Dec 2016, 23:57:24 UTC - in response to Message 1834711.  

I oppose a minimum wage , period.
I am for the rights of people to work where they wish and for a price that they can negotiate.
The minimum wage has always been bad for productivity and a cause of inflation.
The wages I was being paid 40 years ago would equal 10 times what that same job pays in today's dollars.


The high pitched whine of the liberal poster is just too much to bother with.
This Politics thread is no longer worth reading.
I'm done. I'll go look for nice people in a reasonable thread.

The average personal income 40 years ago was about $10k, according to wiki, the source I used earlier says average now is $43k.
I also looked at inflation rates since the 1970's and going by the CPI index, and yes I do question that rate also but it's the only one we have, then $10k spent in 1976 would be the same as about $40k today.
That would infer people on average income are a little but better off today.

Therefore unless you can give a reliable source I must question your figures.

On minimum wage and negotiation, I could agree with you if the economy was always stable, but it isn't. In times when jobs are scarce and there are many unemployed the employers have the upper hand and can give the jobs to those who accept the lowest wages. The opposite can apply when employment is high, but probably not to the same extent, because there is probably someone willing to accept less than you.
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Message 1834730 - Posted: 8 Dec 2016, 0:57:37 UTC

Right.

You guys let me know when this post truth witch-hunt is over because it's messing with everybody's ability to think straight.

You guys are flipping out I didn't add an "IIRC" which I thought was obvious and would never had added anyway. I trust my brain.

(And as turns out... I DID remember correctly.)

Bobby's asking a million questions about what doesn't seem to qualify as a paragraph even.

WK is going on about me going all "apples and oranges" and 'round & 'round in circles when all I did was state a simple fact. Then he pulls a stat out of nowhere as I'm pretty damn sure the percentage of full time employed people is NOWHERE in this thread so... I'm also pretty sure he's mixed up the meanings of "mean" and "median", as median will always be lower in these stats. I can't even be bothered to trace back and look why he thinks I ever said "average" anywhere.

Gary's flippin' out about a tax-stamp when all my brain can access is "killer weed", "dodgy Mexicans" and a blanket ban of other obscure substances like "hashish" when it was really cocaine and morphine that were all the rage way back when. Considering this is probably one of those "interstate" things I'm guessing more Tax-Stamp and less DoA/customs. But we can't have that discussion when he's in post-truth-hunting mode.

And pretty much everybody beside a few Trump fans in here are going all California Über Alles when one look at how counties voted across the States should be enough to tell you "thank f' each State doesn't get 10 electors and that's it". Popular vote? Terrible f'in idea for The States. And if that means Trump then so be it.

Most of you are also oblivious to the fact that left & right have been moaning about the same things all across the Western World. Meanwhile the centrist, adorable, and cool POTUS was bombing 7 different countries up until VERY recently. I guess that means y'all think Hillary would go for 10 seeing as the only thing everybody here agreed on is that she's a warmonger. So that means the only way Trump is going to out-war those two is if he really DOES start a nuclear war. And how many people think that? Personally I consider the chances of him building a wall to be higher (and the chances of that happening are pretty close to zero).

Most of the Left have been getting their stats from Piketty these past few years. And from people like Sanders & Warren. And everybody's so caught up in post-truth-finding that you forgot Trump sounded just like Sanders on a lot of things a few months ago. So his stats aren't wrong. It's just that he & his surrogates can't understand/memorize them to save their life!

So no Bobby & WK, unless you work for Goldman the economy ain't doin' fine.

Oh and fun-fact:
Post-truth? My brain says "technique perfected and heavily used by Putin". Betcha never heard THAT one before...
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Message 1834737 - Posted: 8 Dec 2016, 2:01:04 UTC - in response to Message 1834730.  

unless you work for Goldman the economy ain't doin' fine.

Now where did I say it is.
But considering the state the US economy was in when Obama took office. It's a lot better than it was, or you wouldn't be talking about the low unemployment rate, or that wages are increasing. Admittedly slower that some think it should, but consider this FT - US wage growth accelerates at fastest pace since 2009

Could it be that, for some reason, like people wanting their old manufacturing jobs back, that some parts of the US are not evolving fast enough.
conservative - definition - averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values.
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Message 1834741 - Posted: 8 Dec 2016, 2:53:19 UTC - in response to Message 1834720.  

I'm uncertain of the significance of counties won in a presidential election, other than as an indication of how the population is distributed between a small number of highly populated democratic leaning counties and a large number of low population republican leaning counties.

Perhaps it is as simple as that. Republicans can't stand other people so they live in wide open spaces, Democrats don't mind other people so they live in cities.


Well now, I can't stand other people and I'd prefer a much larger yard, but I'd have to drive even farther for any descent job that pays well in my area. I guess that puts me in the Republican category according to your generalizations, which is at odds with what I keep getting accused of being.
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Message 1834742 - Posted: 8 Dec 2016, 3:05:12 UTC - in response to Message 1834722.  

On minimum wage and negotiation, I could agree with you if the economy was always stable, but it isn't. In times when jobs are scarce and there are many unemployed the employers have the upper hand and can give the jobs to those who accept the lowest wages. The opposite can apply when employment is high, but probably not to the same extent, because there is probably someone willing to accept less than you.


Negotiating wages only helps those whom are good at heckling in the first place. Minimum wage only helps the entire class of people at the bottom, which admittedly has grown, however minimum wage jobs were never meant to be something to live off of. Minimum wage jobs are supposed to be entry-level while you build up a career and get started in life. Which brings me to my bigger problem: upward mobility and the middle class. The middle class does not benefit from minimum wage increases, and it is also the fastest shrinking class in the US (oddly, even the upper class has grown in the past 30 years).

I'm not against minimum wage, but I don't think increasing the cost to flip a burger will help the economy. Big Money isn't going to swallow those costs. They will pass them onto the consumer, which means in the end we all lose. Sure, the higher income will help many for a short while, until price increases catch up all around, then the minimum wage class will be right back where they started: unable to afford things and looking for another increase. The best way to put more money in people's pockets is by increasing their earning potential, through education and opportunity. Education is costing more and more these days, making it unaffordable for the minimum wage earners and opportunity is only available to those willing to race to the bottom to show Big Money what they can do for them.

Bring back upward mobility and you'll have a healthier economy.
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Message 1834747 - Posted: 8 Dec 2016, 4:25:32 UTC - in response to Message 1834742.  
Last modified: 8 Dec 2016, 4:29:30 UTC

I agree with almost every word of your post. However it isn't negotiating but having a point of strength . The trick is to learn a skill that will remain in demand. Don't have to be High Tech. Master Mechanics, Carpenters, Electricians, Plumbers, HVAC Techs, Welders and Masons can demand 6 times the minimum wage (whatever...)] and up. And there will never be enough new ones to replace the retiring and dying.

And if you're really on the ball you can run your own company some day.......that's what makes America Great. Still or Again.

Life is meant to move forward not have a minimum way of getting by.

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
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Message 1834753 - Posted: 8 Dec 2016, 5:56:46 UTC - in response to Message 1834742.  
Last modified: 8 Dec 2016, 6:25:17 UTC

Bring back upward mobility and you'll have a healthier economy.

How many in the US realise that upward mobility in the US is lower that in most other counties.

If the father is in the bottom 20% of the wealth scale there is only just over a 50% chance the son will rise up the scale. Less than one in 12 chance of making it into the top 20%.

On the subject of minimum wage.
Should the US go more towards the UK model, considering that this article, Minimum wage: Updated research roundup on the effects of increasing pay says;
“Minimum wage workers tend to be young. Although workers under age 25 represented only about one-fifth of hourly paid workers, they made up about half of those paid the federal minimum wage or less. Among employed teenagers (ages 16 to 19) paid by the hour, about 11 percent earned the minimum wage or less, compared with about 2 percent of workers age 25 and older.”

I would assume that most people would expect young people to be low wage earners, they haven't learned the job yet.

UK min wage rates.
Year 		25 and over	21 to 24 	18 to 20 	Under 18 	Apprentice
October 2016 	£7.20 		£6.95 		£5.55 		£4.00 		£3.40

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Message 1834757 - Posted: 8 Dec 2016, 6:35:14 UTC - in response to Message 1834747.  

>>> The trick is to learn a skill that will remain in demand. Don't have to be High Tech. Master Mechanics, Carpenters, Electricians, Plumbers, HVAC Techs, Welders and Masons can demand 6 times the minimum wage (whatever...)] and up. And there will never be enough new ones to replace the retiring and dying.

And if you're really on the ball you can run your own company some day.......that's what makes America Great. Still or Again.

Life is meant to move forward not have a minimum way of getting by.

After early failures, I went with utilities and electrical power. Hokey but it's kinda like the Electric Company and the Water Company in Monopoly. Not the most profitable but, steady and secure.



...
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Message 1834763 - Posted: 8 Dec 2016, 7:08:40 UTC - in response to Message 1834730.  

Gary's flippin' out about a tax-stamp

Never said anything about a tax-stamp.
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Message 1834766 - Posted: 8 Dec 2016, 7:15:44 UTC - in response to Message 1834741.  

I'm uncertain of the significance of counties won in a presidential election, other than as an indication of how the population is distributed between a small number of highly populated democratic leaning counties and a large number of low population republican leaning counties.

Perhaps it is as simple as that. Republicans can't stand other people so they live in wide open spaces, Democrats don't mind other people so they live in cities.


Well now, I can't stand other people and I'd prefer a much larger yard, but I'd have to drive even farther for any descent job that pays well in my area. I guess that puts me in the Republican category according to your generalizations, which is at odds with what I keep getting accused of being.

Yes and no. You yearn for a larger yard isn't so debilitating to you that you have made the decision to chuck the city. Orange County California voted for a democrat for the first time since FDR. Population density is higher now too.

Of course is isn't a rule for individuals perhaps only to the median.
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Message 1834797 - Posted: 8 Dec 2016, 13:00:41 UTC - in response to Message 1834730.  

Right.

You guys let me know when this post truth witch-hunt is over because it's messing with everybody's ability to think straight.

That admission might explain a lot, seeing as it's only reasonable to believe your opinion of everybody is based upon how you feel about your own abilities.

You guys are flipping out I didn't add an "IIRC" which I thought was obvious and would never had added anyway. I trust my brain.

It may not be as trustworthy as you believe, and in a public forum what has being self explanatory to the author to do with anything, posting here implies you'd like others to understand you. If you do not wish to engage with others, why post?

(And as turns out... I DID remember correctly.)

You rememdered your own recollection correctly? Prove it. (j/k)

Bobby's asking a million questions about what doesn't seem to qualify as a paragraph even.

Not sure what this is a reference to.

WK is going on about me going all "apples and oranges" and 'round & 'round in circles when all I did was state a simple fact. Then he pulls a stat out of nowhere as I'm pretty damn sure the percentage of full time employed people is NOWHERE in this thread so... I'm also pretty sure he's mixed up the meanings of "mean" and "median", as median will always be lower in these stats. I can't even be bothered to trace back and look why he thinks I ever said "average" anywhere.

Gary's flippin' out about a tax-stamp when all my brain can access is "killer weed", "dodgy Mexicans" and a blanket ban of other obscure substances like "hashish" when it was really cocaine and morphine that were all the rage way back when. Considering this is probably one of those "interstate" things I'm guessing more Tax-Stamp and less DoA/customs. But we can't have that discussion when he's in post-truth-hunting mode.

Guy (not Gary) mentioned the federal stamp tax on THC bearing hemp. For somebody that admonishes others for not doing their research ...

And pretty much everybody beside a few Trump fans in here are going all California Über Alles when one look at how counties voted across the States should be enough to tell you "thank f' each State doesn't get 10 electors and that's it". Popular vote? Terrible f'in idea for The States. And if that means Trump then so be it.

Is this intended to justify your earlier comment about inability to think straight?

Most of you are also oblivious to the fact that left & right have been moaning about the same things all across the Western World. Meanwhile the centrist, adorable, and cool POTUS was bombing 7 different countries up until VERY recently. I guess that means y'all think Hillary would go for 10 seeing as the only thing everybody here agreed on is that she's a warmonger. So that means the only way Trump is going to out-war those two is if he really DOES start a nuclear war. And how many people think that? Personally I consider the chances of him building a wall to be higher (and the chances of that happening are pretty close to zero).

Is Jill Stein your source? Not that she's wrong about this, though it might be helpful for others to know.

Most of the Left have been getting their stats from Piketty these past few years. And from people like Sanders & Warren. And everybody's so caught up in post-truth-finding that you forgot Trump sounded just like Sanders on a lot of things a few months ago. So his stats aren't wrong. It's just that he & his surrogates can't understand/memorize them to save their life!

This Piketty? Trump may have made some statements about workers that sounded similar to Sanders, pretty sure he said some other things that did not, and while some of Trump's stats may have been correct, are you this was predominantly the case?

So no Bobby & WK, unless you work for Goldman the economy ain't doin' fine.

I don't and never have worked for Goldman, and am unsure where you believe either of us said the economy is doin' fine, perhaps this mis-characterization is in part due to your inability to think straight.

Oh and fun-fact:
Post-truth? My brain says "technique perfected and heavily used by Putin". Betcha never heard THAT one before...

Not sure what you're trying to say here.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1834816 - Posted: 8 Dec 2016, 14:40:39 UTC - in response to Message 1834747.  

I agree with almost every word of your post. However it isn't negotiating but having a point of strength . The trick is to learn a skill that will remain in demand. Don't have to be High Tech. Master Mechanics, Carpenters, Electricians, Plumbers, HVAC Techs, Welders and Masons can demand 6 times the minimum wage (whatever...)] and up. And there will never be enough new ones to replace the retiring and dying.


Negotiating might be about having a point of strength but in the entry-level, minimum wage area there isn't much room for differentiation, making negotiating a wage at the bottom pointless (or maybe I should say fruitless). Corporations know this and if they could get away with it, they'd pay pennies for unskilled labor. This is why I'm not opposed to minimum wage, but I don't think it helps solve the real economic problems we have.
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