You are talking about Net Metering. Here is a summary of current CA law.

Yes CA homeowners are safe for 4 years. But that can change. Arizona did away with it and left a lot of angry homeowners. Also pissed of a lot of solar companies.

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"I guess it really comes down to how the money is invested. I think I could benefit more financially in the long run from that $19,500 cash with a wise money advisor. But again, I think the concept of solar power is a win-win for everyone when the technology improves so most people can look at it and say, yeah, that makes sense."

Hi Gordon,
We did not have $19,500 cash to spend, far from it. We did a "zero down" thing. 30% of the total price was covered by a refund from the IRS at tax time. The remainder, or 70%, was financed for 12 years at 3.99%. If we would have had cash so as not to need a loan, I'm sure we could have gotten a better than 3.99% return on that large a sum. :)

BUT, if we invested the $19,500 cash, assuming we had it, we would still be paying about $2184/year for electricity from SDG&E instead of the $378 we pay now for electricity.

Maybe I should get an estimate on the cost of setting this up on my house. I would pay 100% cash, but I just have a feeling with my electric bills topping out around $1,200/year at $.08 per kWh, the system is still too expensive to make sense(at least in my case).

But, if your system produces more than you can use then you'll wind up being paid for all that excess power being fed back into the grid, well that's what happens over here anyway (quicker payoff time and then income).

Just some food for thought. ;-)

Cheers.

Tuesday August 30 2016, 5:53 PM

Oh, oh, be VERY CAREFUL about entering into a solar panel install where you may well generate more power to the grid than you normally use. Go back over the last 12 months bills and add up the total kWh you paid for. Take no more than 80%, and preferably 70% of THAT total kWh. Tell the solar vendor of your choice you only want enough panels to generate THAT much power, i.e., the 70% amount, or 80% if you like to gamble.

The reason you may ask? Your electrical provider does NOT want competition. In some parts of the USA, the Los Angeles area in particular, your provider may DISCONNECT you from their grid. They will call you a "solar provider" and not a consumer. BE WARY of this in your area. If you "overinstall" panels in order to make $$ every month you could be in deep "do do." If this happens you then have two choices: #1 You can pay to have the excess panels removed, OR, #2, you could but a battery backup system which could cost as much as 2 to 3 thousand $$. Not good, huh?

This COULD, and its just a guess, be what happened in Arizona and why solor is in trouble there. With all that sunshine I wouldn't be surprised if many people "over-installed" panels to generate big time $$. Maybe not, BUT it is a thought?

Anyway, if you choose a reputable solar vendor, they should be aware of what I mentioned above. My vendor suggested I only buy 12 panels and generate about 60% of my needs. We increased to 14 panels and are generating 70 to 75% of what we use.

Please "feel out" any salesman you talk to about the number of panels you should install. If he says: "How many do you want?" Show him the door. He is more interested in taking your hard earned $$ and doesn't give a whit for the trouble that could be caused by overdoing it.

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

This whole thread is full of excellent information.

Thank you!

Steve

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Warning, addicted to SETI crunching!
Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group.
GPUUG Website

This whole thread is full of excellent information.

Thank you!

Steve

You're very welcome, and I thank you. :) Solar power is a wonderful thing for many homeowners to have. However, there are good vendors and bad ones. The bad ones are eager to take advantage of those who do not study all aspects of a solar purchase before buying.

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

This whole thread is full of excellent information.

Thank you!

Steve

You're very welcome, and I thank you. :) Solar power is a wonderful thing for many homeowners to have. However, there are good vendors and bad ones. The bad ones are eager to take advantage of those who do not study all aspects of a solar purchase before buying.

Totally agree on that. I have had several people ask me to look at proposals. I can spot a cheat in seconds.

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...there are good vendors and bad ones.

That is for darn sure!!! Eric and I were not going to let just anybody run around on our roof installing stuff.

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My feelings on solar, wind or what ever is the surplus electricity that is sold back to the grid should be sold at the wholesale price not retail. The grid is not viable if the users of it don't pay for the cost of the infrastucture.

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My feelings on solar, wind or what ever is the surplus electricity that is sold back to the grid should be sold at the wholesale price not retail. The grid is not viable if the users of it don't pay for the cost of the infrastucture.

Problem with wholesale is that wholesale electricity prices vary by demand. It would not be easy to calculate. There could be a fixed price contract that is somewhere in the middle. Utility scale solar projects are paid on a fixed price contract for a term of years. It is more than regular wholesale but still way below what is charged to the consumer.

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My feelings on solar, wind or what ever is the surplus electricity that is sold back to the grid should be sold at the wholesale price not retail. The grid is not viable if the users of it don't pay for the cost of the infrastucture.

Excellent point! The "grid" is not a freebie and all that use it should support it. However, that doesn't mean a homeowner cannot supplement the power he/she purchases from a commercial source with power generated at home and at their own expense. :)

Naturally, you cannot install so many panels that you turn yourself into a "provider," and use the grid for free and cheat those who paid to install the infrastructure. That is wrong, IMHO.

One woman I know of in Riverside County, California had solar installed. She did not learn about and investigate solar and learn enough to ask intelligent questions of solar vendors. She bought a system with so many panels on her roof that they hung over the edge of the roof all around! She had to pay many $$ to have the excess removed. A man in Los Angeles County, wanting to get rich, did the same thing. The utility company disconnected him from the grid.

I suspect, as I said in another post, that perhaps the problem with solar in Arizona MAY have been caused by too many who were too greedy? They went too far and tried to use the grid as their own money generator? I have no way to know what caused the demise of solar there, but I'm suspicious.

On first contact with our vendor, prior to our meeting with a salesman, we were asked to locate and provide our electric utility bills going back one full year so the company could evaluate our needs. we did so, and the salesman suggested 12 panels, which would have provided 60% of our needs. Being human, and wanting to make a good long term investment, we opted to "push" it a bit, and bought 14 panels. These cover 70 to 75% of our monthly needs. In some months we pay maybe $10, in hot months, we pay $40 to as high as $100, but always WAY below what we used to pay.

Oh, one thing I've not mentioned. Many who may read this may already know it, but some may not. There are TWO kinds of solar systems. There is a cheaper and older version that uses one large "inverter" mounted outside on a wall and runs warm; it converts the DC generated by the series connected panels to AC so you can use it. The newest version, more expensive, uses a single "micro-inverter" mounted adjacent to each solar panel. They are all connected in parallel. THIS is the system you want, even at the add'l expense. It is more efficient AND, since the panels are parallel connected, if one goes bad, your system keeps working. If you opt for the OLD style solar, since they are wired in series, they are like Christmas tree lights. If one panel fails you are OFF the grid! Beware of a vendor who does not explain all the above to you.

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

It is fascinating to see how the charging structures vary from country to country, and in the USA state to state!

In the UK our domestic energy bills comprise two parts, one is a fixed charge which covers the infrastructure and is basically "the same" for everyone for a given provider. Then there is an "energy charge", which is based on your energy "consumption". For those without any solar, wind or hydro generation this is nice and simple. The "fun" starts when you have a micro generation plant, using sun/water/wind, you can now get what is called a "feed-in" tariff paid to you, and a micro-generation fee, and, if you have an energy store (battery bank) you get something for that. The bill gets a lot more complex as each of these is a variable rate depending on the amount you generate and the time you generate at (or discharge the batteries). There are limits on the power rating of the installed plant, and may be local planning restrictions on certain types of installation. It is possible, if you are a low consumption household, to make some money from a domestic micro-generation scheme, but most people find it is a way of reducing ones energy bill, mainly because we don't enjoy the amount of energy landing on our roofs in the UK that many other countries do, or our housing is too crowded together to get a decent sized wind turbine up into non-turbulent air.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

Thursday September 1 2016, 6:07 AM

Hi Bob,

Thank you for your U.K. info on how things are handled there. I like the idea that you have two parts to your bill, one for electricity used and the other for support of the infrastructure; that is good. I dunno about the other things that contribute to your bill like the "feed-in" tariff, et al? Sounds a bit complicated.

In looking at our bill for August, for $42.54 for 222 kWh, I guess we in the USA also have a "two part" bill, like yours, but, on our bill there is no mention of the word "infrastructure." Our bill has 12 items on it, as follows:

Our cost of electricity and infrastructure:

Electricity Generation $29.03
DWR Bond Charge $1.20
Transmission $6.53
Distribution $18.87
Public Purpose Programs $2.76
Nuclear Decommissioning $0.01
DWR Revenue Adjustment -$0.05
Competition Transition Charge $0.41
Local Generation Charge $0.09
Reliability Services $0.03
TRAC -$16.48
Taxes & Fees $0.14

I have no clue whatever WHY two of the line items are marked as negative? Why the rebate? I dunno.

I wish I could compare August of this year with August last year, but, I only have 10 days of data for last year as our solar service had just gotten underway. This month will be our first real comparison with 12 months back. It appears that our panel efficiency has gone done by nearly 5%. But, I think when you look at efficiency you should do it using data from "normal" years? California is still in the midst of a 5 year drought. Perhaps, if we had normal raindall, which would clean our panels, our loss in efficiency may be only 3%, or even less? I dunno.

I have to think that, of the 12 items, 10 are for "infrastructure." I also have to think that to find the total cost we pay for the electricity itself that it is the sum of line items #1, and #9? These are labeled as "Electricity Generation" and "Local Generation Charge." WHAT on earth the LAST item is, I am clueless?

So, our bill totals $42.54, and the amount we paid for 222 kWh of electricity is $29.03 plus $0.09 = $29.12. This works out to $0.131 or 13.1 cents / kWh.

In southern California, our utility company, SDG&E, has switched from a 4 tier usage plan to a 2 tier plan just recently.

Under the old plan, with 4 tiers, we were charged $0.17/kWh for usage up to 288 kWh, $0.20 up to 374 kWh, $0.40 up to 576 kWh, and $0.42 for all above.

Under the new plan, with 2 tiers, we pay $0.19/kWh in tier 1 and $0.39 for tier 2. The bill is not clearly marked so I can't tell for sure WHERE the "break point" between the 2 tiers is, but it appears to be 339 kWh. Since our usage was 222 kWh we are down in tier 1.

Bottom line on the above is that we've had a rate increase from $0.17/kWh up to $0.19/kWh. :(

I hope the above may help others following this chat group figure out their kWh billing rate. It would be interesting to learn what others here in the USA are paying per kWh.

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

One of the more recent innovations in the UK has been the transition from paper bills to totally on-line. I haven't seen a paper bill for over three years, and then it was the closing statement from my previous provider with a nice big cheque attached due to me having over-paid and they having made a big mess (They didn't believe I used so little gas and billed me according to what they thought I should be using, and after a big argument took me to court and lost big time.) Every month I get a link emailed to me so I can read my current statement, as well as all previous ones - saves on having that pile of paper sitting in a draw just waiting to get lost.

It certainly is complex when you get into domestic generation, but I guess most just look at the last line (the amount that you have to pay) and say "Coo, that's gone down £xx over last year" and don't bother about the detail above the line.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

My question, have any of my bills gone down
with paperless bills? Not that I like killing
trees, but I hate being lied to when I know,
and they know that they are lying to me.

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Thursday September 1 2016, 7:42 AM

Hi Bob,

Is your utility forcing you to go "paperless?" We get told all the time we should do that, but then you're locked into having a working computer and net connection. I don't like that. I think getting bills in the mail is more reliable. :)

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

It was one of the options when I changed supplier.
With a paper bill I would only get to see a bill and statement every three months, and have the problems of replacing lost bills & statements, but by going paperless I can see all of them since I moved supplier 35 months this month), and they are monthly, so I can see very quickly what impact things like the extra insulation I've installed have had.
Also with a "smart" meter I am supposed to be able to see a 15minute resolution power usage, but have never got round to looking at it.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

Except for the rent bill, everything else is paperless with Me, the rent(265.00), the bill has electricity(128.08), gas(10.47), water(30.00), and trash(15.00), sewer is still a part of the rent, here, but for how long? I don't know that.

I'm only providing a look at My electric portion of My bill, this was a bit of work in and of itself, when I replace a couple windows and a video card with either a 970 reference or a 1060FE, My bill should come down some, how much is another question for another day. Gas is another 10 lines of text, meaningless for solar in this case, 'gas' refers to 'Natural Gas', as if there is an 'Unnatural Gas', LOL.

Edison Basic Care               Total --> 128.0800
                       Prev   Pres Mult  Total
      7-18 thru 8-18  77942  78927   1   985.0 Kw
 Line Item Description     Rate  Usage    Cost
 _____________________ ________ ______ _______
Delivery Service D
Baseline = 499.0
       100%  Baseline  .0330700  499   16.5000
101% - 130%  Baseline  .0880500  150   13.2100
131% - 200%  Baseline  .0880500  336   29.5800
         Local Tax               985     .0000
  State Tax Reimb.               985     .2900
      Basic Charge     .0180000 31 Days
DWR Energy Credit C
         Local Tax               985     .0000
DWR Energy Charge      .0002200  985    -.2200
Generation UB D Care
Baseline = 499.0
       100%  Baseline  .0691900  499   34.5300
101% - 130%  Baseline  .0691900  247   17.0900
131% - 200%  Baseline  .0691900  239   16.5400
         Local Tax               985     .0000

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Thursday September 1 2016, 10:52 AM

Hi Bob,

We have a "Smart Meter." It gives us a continuous readout of how much power we are pumping INTO the grid or taking FROM it plus several others types of measurements. We can look at it every day at sunset and see how much we either took or delivered to the grid.

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

Vic - I think the folks who put together utility bills do so in a manner to cause maximum confusion to the average user :-(

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

Vic - I think the folks who put together utility bills do so in a manner to cause maximum confusion to the average user :-(

Yeah, that I would not doubt.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Ok I have some good news, the SCE Medical Baseline Allowance Application form has arrived, before filling it out, I'm going to scan it in on both sides, unless someone else has this form scanned in to their Computer as a jpg file that would be good enough to print out. If no one does, then I think I need to install the driver for My scanner and then unload what is on top, then scan both sides, yeah Mine can act like a copier, I just need a better printer, among other things...

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's