The Way Ahead

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Message 1800056 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 2:31:18 UTC - in response to Message 1800053.  

The way I see it everyone in the UK voted on how much democracy they wanted in their lives. And voted in a very democratic way, might I add.

Yes. That's how democracy works.
But lets say the voting was a week later and the weather was nicer on voting day.
Giving the close vote outcome perhaps the UK would remain in the EU...
And I thought the referendum was advisory.
Well. Brexit is Brexit as Theresa May says.
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Message 1800057 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 2:36:09 UTC - in response to Message 1800056.  

The way I see it everyone in the UK voted on how much democracy they wanted in their lives. And voted in a very democratic way, might I add.

Yes. That's how democracy works.
But lets say the voting was a week later and the weather was nicer on voting day.
Giving the close vote outcome perhaps the UK would remain in the EU...
And I thought the referendum was advisory.
Well. Brexit is Brexit as Theresa May says.

It is.
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Message 1800061 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 3:17:39 UTC - in response to Message 1800057.  

The way I see it everyone in the UK voted on how much democracy they wanted in their lives. And voted in a very democratic way, might I add.

Yes. That's how democracy works.
But lets say the voting was a week later and the weather was nicer on voting day.
Giving the close vote outcome perhaps the UK would remain in the EU...
And I thought the referendum was advisory.
Well. Brexit is Brexit as Theresa May says.

It is.

Hmmm.
But couldn't this be resolved with a tiebreak?
I love strawberries:)
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Message 1800071 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 4:38:26 UTC - in response to Message 1800061.  

But couldn't this be resolved with a tiebreak?

Best four out of seven?
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Message 1800099 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 13:25:13 UTC - in response to Message 1800071.  
Last modified: 2 Jul 2016, 13:47:34 UTC

But couldn't this be resolved with a tiebreak?

Best four out of seven?

Hehehe:)
Perhaps not. That would take years.
A more quick way to settle it is with penalties like in football.
"And now David Beckham, Bremainer, have the chance to settle it once and for all"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL_gEn9xyV8

btw.
Seven percent of those who voted for Britain to leave the EU - 1.2 million voters - has repented, according to a survey from Opinium referenced by The Independent.
Worthy of note in the survey is that the next one in ten do not think the UK will actually leave the EU:)
Meanwhile, three percent of those who want to stay in Europe has changed their minds.
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Message 1800112 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 14:49:13 UTC - in response to Message 1800105.  
Last modified: 2 Jul 2016, 14:50:02 UTC

btw.
Seven percent of those who voted for Britain to leave the EU - 1.2 million voters - has repented, according to a survey from Opinium referenced by The Independent.
Worthy of note in the survey is that the next one in ten do not think the UK will actually leave the EU:)
Meanwhile, three percent of those who want to stay in Europe has changed their minds.

Possibly the same percentage after every election/referendum. So?
What is the point being made, in a Lawful and Democratic Culture?

In a democracy the majority are supposed to rule.
But there are different kind of majorites in a democracy.
Simple, Absolute, Qualified and Double.
http://en.euabc.com/word/783
Now Britain choosed a referendum that only require a simple majority.
Since all know that voters are changing their minds all the time I think the Brexit referendum doesn't say what Brits wants.
At very least it should have had a 60% barrier, not 50%.
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Message 1800113 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 14:52:59 UTC - in response to Message 1800112.  

Now Britain choosed a referendum that only require a simple majority.
Since all know that voters are changing their minds all the time I think the Brexit referendum doesn't say what Brits wants.
At very least it should have had a 60% barrier, not 50%.

In which case there would have been no winners.

By setting a barrier, then the referendum/poll/election is weighted.

The EU knew that which is why they set their own barrier.
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Message 1800115 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 14:56:50 UTC - in response to Message 1800113.  
Last modified: 2 Jul 2016, 15:07:40 UTC

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Message 1800116 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 15:05:32 UTC - in response to Message 1800115.  

In which case there would have been no winners.

Yes. You proved my point:)

Not quite, I should have said no winners of the referendum. By setting a barrier which in our case would not have been reached, the status quo would have remained as if no referendum took place.
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Message 1800119 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 15:13:04 UTC - in response to Message 1800116.  

By setting a barrier which in our case would not have been reached, the status quo would have remained as if no referendum took place.

Not really.
The politicians now know for certain that the public don't trust them.
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Message 1800123 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 15:33:44 UTC - in response to Message 1800119.  

By setting a barrier which in our case would not have been reached, the status quo would have remained as if no referendum took place.

Not really.
The politicians now know for certain that the public don't trust them.

That already happened, approx. 30 odd years ago.
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Message 1800125 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 15:44:54 UTC - in response to Message 1800123.  

By setting a barrier which in our case would not have been reached, the status quo would have remained as if no referendum took place.

Not really.
The politicians now know for certain that the public don't trust them.

That already happened, approx. 30 odd years ago.

hmmm.
Referendums in the United Kingdom are by tradition extremely rare due to the principle of parliamentary sovereignty. To date, only three referendums have been held which have covered the whole of the United Kingdom: the first on membership of the European Economic Community in 1975, the second on adopting the Alternative vote system in parliamentary elections in 2011, and the third on whether to remain in the European Union in 2016.
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Message 1800135 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 16:07:11 UTC - in response to Message 1800130.  

btw.
Seven percent of those who voted for Britain to leave the EU - 1.2 million voters - has repented, according to a survey from Opinium referenced by The Independent.
Worthy of note in the survey is that the next one in ten do not think the UK will actually leave the EU:)
Meanwhile, three percent of those who want to stay in Europe has changed their minds.

Possibly the same percentage after every election/referendum. So?
What is the point being made, in a Lawful and Democratic Culture?

In a democracy the majority are supposed to rule.
But there are different kind of majorites in a democracy.
Simple, Absolute, Qualified and Double.
http://en.euabc.com/word/783
Now Britain choosed a referendum that only require a simple majority.
Since all know that voters are changing their minds all the time I think the Brexit referendum doesn't say what Brits wants.
At very least it should have had a 60% barrier, not 50%.

Perhaps. But...

A Lawful Society doesn't change the Rules, when one side loses.

So why were the rules changed for this referendum compared to the previous two?
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Message 1800163 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 19:34:28 UTC - in response to Message 1800135.  

A Lawful Society doesn't change the Rules, when one side loses.

So why were the rules changed for this referendum compared to the previous two?

Are there rules for referendums? Or because they are advice, hence ignorable, there is no value to them and no rules need be made?
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Message 1800176 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 21:04:34 UTC - in response to Message 1800163.  
Last modified: 2 Jul 2016, 21:25:54 UTC

A Lawful Society doesn't change the Rules, when one side loses.

So why were the rules changed for this referendum compared to the previous two?

Are there rules for referendums? Or because they are advice, hence ignorable, there is no value to them and no rules need be made?

There are no rules for referendums.
Wales are now fighting to be in the EU.
Wales Brussels 3-1.


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Message 1800180 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 21:21:05 UTC - in response to Message 1800163.  
Last modified: 2 Jul 2016, 21:23:45 UTC

A Lawful Society doesn't change the Rules, when one side loses.

So why were the rules changed for this referendum compared to the previous two?

Are there rules for referendums? Or because they are advice, hence ignorable, there is no value to them and no rules need be made?

Actually there are no rules for referendums, although it has been proposed several times.
On the ignorable point, it isn't the only threshold for exit.

The European Union act of 2011 requires that any amendment of the Treaty on European Union or the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union made by treaty, and any use of a passerelle provision, must be approved by an Act of Parliament at least; and that a referendum must be held in any of various cases (listed in section 4 of the Act) where this would enlarge EU powers or reduce safeguards such as unanimous voting.

So all this posturing by the EU leaders and the reaction of the markets was jumping the gun.
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Message 1800183 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 21:26:20 UTC - in response to Message 1800180.  

So all this posturing by the EU leaders and the reaction of the markets was jumping the gun.

Which was swiftly acted upon

Crisis? What crisis?
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Message 1800187 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 21:38:51 UTC - in response to Message 1800180.  

And does the government need to follow the referendum votes?
Of course not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_nuclear_power_referendum,_1980
Next year is when the first two nuclear reactors are shut down.
Only for economical reasons, not because of the referendum held for more than 40 years ago.
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Message 1800189 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 21:41:10 UTC - in response to Message 1800183.  

So all this posturing by the EU leaders and the reaction of the markets was jumping the gun.

Which was swiftly acted upon

Crisis? What crisis?

Just a profit opportunity. How do you think they get filthy rich in the first place? They do the opposite of the crowd! Isn't it nice to know the crowd is always fleeced?!
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Message 1800210 - Posted: 2 Jul 2016, 23:17:18 UTC - in response to Message 1800054.  

I was thinking back these stories,
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/power-struggle-europts-between-european-parliament-and-eu-leaders-a-972870.html
and http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/merkel-likely-to-seek-eu-compromise-with-london-a-973962.html
when she had to compromise to keep the coalition together in Germany or she might have lost power.


Apologies, those are both fantastic articles (even a lot of the comments are great, smthg I've noticed before on Spiegel) so now I'm super-confused.
What were you trying to say exactly?
'Cause it looks like I grossly misunderstood something along the way...
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Message boards : Politics : The Way Ahead


 
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