Yes! Unfortunately Greece was dumb enough to adopt the euro, and (double-unfortunately) the EZ was dumb enough to let 'em.

When Greece joined the EU they had to adopt the euro.
It's a non negotional matter when new members join the "union".
Great Britain and Sweden is however excempted to that rule for now...

And Denmark.
Det er dejligt:)

I'm not sure what you mean by "new members".

Greece adopted the euro almost 2 years before it went into circulation...

You mean it wasn't optional in Greece's case? Because I always assumed it was.

I'm not sure what you mean by "new members".

Greece adopted the euro almost 2 years before it went into circulation...

You mean it wasn't optional in Greece's case? Because I always assumed it was.

My mistake.
Greece has been a EU member since 1981 and could have kept the Drachma as currency.
Well.. Greece perhaps did the same mistake as Finland did and later realise that everything becoming more expensive.

I'm not sure what you mean by "new members".

Greece adopted the euro almost 2 years before it went into circulation...

You mean it wasn't optional in Greece's case? Because I always assumed it was.

My mistake.
Greece has been a EU member since 1981 and could have kept the Drachma as currency.
Well.. Greece perhaps did the same mistake as Finland did and later realise that everything becoming more expensive.

Whenever a currency, or units of measurement, are changed, things get more expensive, it happened in the UK when we went from £sd to decimal and again when we went from Imperial to metric measurements.
In fact there are still some trying the rip-off, two shops close to me sell milk at the same price, but I do wonder if many people notice in one it is for 2.27 ltrs (4 pints) and the other it is for 2 ltrs. There is not much to notice unless you stand the containers side by side, or read the label, which most don't obviously.

This would be funny, except its probably true. So much for 'taking back control' - it's clear now there was no plan and Boris Johnson has unleashed anarchy

Taibbi's on a role again.

So here's what I've been struggling to convey, however this piece is obviously a lot more eloquently written... Wish I'd seen it sooner, would have saved me a bit of work.

Most smart people can't compute that intelligent folk make dumb decisions all the time. And perfectly capable of being "cowboys" too. I guess though that one could make the argument that intelligence isn't really intelligence if it's to abandon you the minute you need it most.

Ok enough philosophy for today...

(Click on link for full article. It's worth it.)

---

The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened
If you believe there's such a thing as "too much democracy," you probably don't believe in democracy at all
Matt Taibbi - June 27, 2016

As a rule, people resent being saved from themselves. And if you think depriving people of their right to make mistakes makes sense, you probably never had respect for their right to make decisions at all.

This is all relevant in the wake of the Brexit referendum, in which British citizens narrowly voted to exit the European Union.

Because the vote was viewed as having been driven by the same racist passions that are fueling the campaign of Donald Trump, a wide swath of commentators suggested that democracy erred, and the vote should perhaps be canceled, for the Britons' own good.

Social media was filled with such calls. "Is it just me, or does #Brexit seem like a moment when the government should overrule a popular referendum?" wrote one typical commenter.

On op-ed pages, there was a lot of the same. Harvard economics professor and chess grandmaster Kenneth Rogoff wrote a piece for the Boston Globe called "Britain's democratic failure"....

...Too much license, Plato wrote, leads to a spoiled populace that will turn to a strongman for revenge if anyone gets in the way of the party. These "men of naught" will inevitably denounce as oligarchs any wise group of rulers who try to set basic/sensible rules for society.

You have to be a snob of the first order, completely high on your own gas, to try to apply these arguments to present-day politics, imagining yourself as an analog to Plato's philosopher-kings.

And you have to have a cast-iron head to not grasp that saying stuff like this out loud is part of what inspires populations to movements like Brexit or the Trump campaign in the first place.

This would be funny, except its probably true. So much for 'taking back control' - it's clear now there was no plan and Boris Johnson has unleashed anarchy

WinterKnight...

You really believe the Stay Politicians and the Exit Politicians, know what they are doing?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Leaders. Be it Kings, Czars, Fuehrers, Popes, Politicians et al. Are no better, and many times worse. Than those people walking on the street.

Yes... We Humans have always wanted to believe differently.

One of the many reasons that any Governmental System. Must be from a foundation of Reducing Government Power. In order to stop what will happen, if you don't.

The stay politicians were probably going to just carry on with the policies they had said they would do from last years general election, so they probably knew what they would be doing. But it is quite clear that the go politicians didn't have any solid or even semi-solid policies in place if they won, because they didn't expect to win.

Most of the go politicians knew some of the figures, if not all, they quoted, like the weekly payments to the EU, were not actually correct. For that one they quoted the gross amount before deductions, which bring in down to at least half. Even now one of them is quoting, if he wins the leadership vote will pay large amounts to the health service, but has also said some of the regional payments made by the EU will still be honoured, one or the other must be wrong.

And they cannot just cut the immigration figures to zero, because half of the immigrants are from outside the EU.

Does Northern Europe need to be in the EU?
http://www.hs.fi/english/a1452572490520
Forbes have done a list of the world's best country for business.

Denmark was ranked as the world's best country for business before New Zealand, Norway, Ireland, Sweden and Finland. Finland, in turn, is followed by Singapore, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, Hong Kong and Switzerland in the annual ranking.

Take that Herrn Merkel!

WK, you are overlooking a couple of pretty major points.

Why are you pretending to forget almost half the parliament wanted nothing to do with the EU? Obviously that's not what they were saying right before the referendum... but if that wasn't true (and since I know you can't have had your memory erased you know it's why Thatcher got ousted)...

Sorry, I really don't know the right thing to say to help you understand something I know is already buried somewhere in the back of your head.

Do you think "the masses" don't remember Cameron got stonewalled on the Juncker presidency?
Do you think "the masses" don't remember Cameron got peanuts in the EU negotiations?
Do you think "the masses" couldn't see he didn't have feet to stand on asking for IN, after all that bickering in the news?
Do you think "the masses" don't remember anti EU sentiment in both parties going all the way back to Thatcher (at least)?
Do you think Nigel and Boris riled up over 17 million Brits UKers on their own?

You are deleting a lot of history just to make your argument work.

I think your mistake is falling for too simple a narrative.

Perhaps this says it all better...

"The decision I am announcing today has no winner and no loser, it has only one aim: to strengthen trust in the rule of law and democracy."

Austrian presidential result overturned

...I've been asking the same question for the past 7 days, so far, no answers!

Question: -

"If the UK result had been the other way round, what would the Remainer's be saying to the Leaver's on their demand for a 2nd referendum?"

It is Europe, but it can also be America with its Democrats v Republicans.

An Insider look Part 1 - EU's raging power struggle

Part 2 - You're lying to us

Edit, signs that Europe is waking up?

"On Tuesday evening, EU heads of state and government come together for what could be their last supper together with Cameron. On the following morning, they make clear to Juncker that they will be taking the lead in the exit negotiations with Britain. "But that is the Commission's responsibility," Juncker protests. "Jean-Claude, we have been elected, you haven't been," is the rejoinder from several prime ministers and heads of state."

WK, you are overlooking a couple of pretty major points.

Why are you pretending to forget almost half the parliament wanted nothing to do with the EU? Obviously that's not what they were saying right before the referendum... but if that wasn't true (and since I know you can't have had your memory erased you know it's why Thatcher got ousted)...

Sorry, I really don't know the right thing to say to help you understand something I know is already buried somewhere in the back of your head.

Do you think "the masses" don't remember Cameron got stonewalled on the Juncker presidency?
Do you think "the masses" don't remember Cameron got peanuts in the EU negotiations?
Do you think "the masses" couldn't see he didn't have feet to stand on asking for IN, after all that bickering in the news?
Do you think "the masses" don't remember anti EU sentiment in both parties going all the way back to Thatcher (at least)?
Do you think Nigel and Boris riled up over 17 million Brits UKers on their own?

You are deleting a lot of history just to make your argument work.

I think your mistake is falling for too simple a narrative.

I wasn't overlooking the things you mention deliberately. But I do think you are mistaken on the support of MP's.



And it was probably the press that got the masses riles up. Always a problem with a two sided debate, the press and the media always say they are presenting balanced reporting by giving equal time/inches to both sides.

That's the same problem they have had with climate change for years, one expert against one expert, when to be properly representative for climate change it should be ~13:1.

Looking at that chart, the 13 that didn't declare their positions wouldn't have made no difference.

What that chart does do though is show just how much the result shook them up.

What John McDonnell said earlier today shows the electorate just how far removed they are from the country at large!

""I find it really disappointing. Just at a time when our country needs us and people need to step up to the plate, now is not the time to stand down. Just behave responsibly," he said."

Looking at that chart, the 13 that didn't declare their positions wouldn't have made no difference.

What that chart does do though is show just how much the result shook them up.

What John McDonnell said earlier today shows the electorate just how far removed they are from the country at large!

""I find it really disappointing. Just at a time when our country needs us and people need to step up to the plate, now is not the time to stand down. Just behave responsibly," he said."

The other thing that should be considered is;
how come the population voted for all these EU supporting MP's last year, knowing there was a referendum promised.

And was it because there was so much support in the house that they didn't put the 2/3's majority clause in, like previous referendums.

What are the Brexiters going to do if, as more and more are saying, that there has to be legislation to change previous legislation before the PM can present article 50?

The MP's, even if a general election is called, without a ginormous shake up are probably not going to vote to Brexit.

So which vote is correct, the referendum or do MP's represent the wishes of the people they represent?

& there you have the reason why Cameron resigned. He knew it for what it has become " A Poisoned Chalice".

That's what will end up destroying his legacy as Prime Minister. There is no one available to really stand up & get the country back on track - May might look good, but if she is to achieve anything worthwhile, will need the support of a united party as well as a united country.

24/6/16 is the "Day Westminster imploded"

With what we currently have...

Some light relief :-)

Sorry Brussels, just sprouts for dinner instead of caviar

I wasn't overlooking the things you mention deliberately. But I do think you are mistaken on the support of MP's

Actually, what you overlooked was my post :) That's not what I said.

I'll rephrase. If I go back and take a close look at what those
185 Con
218 Lab
have said before the referendum was announced, one by one... Are you really claiming that those 185+218=403 MPs have never dissed the EU over their entire political career? No moaning whatsoever?

The EU smells of roses for all 403?
UK politicians never flip-flop on issues? ;)

But it may be a good idea to start from the beginning and explain exactly how much "sway" you think politicians actually have when it comes to a referendum like IN/OUT.

Or let me try one more:

The Scots got kicked in the teeth by the EUsters a few days ago. You think that went unnoticed by the average Scotsman?

I wasn't overlooking the things you mention deliberately. But I do think you are mistaken on the support of MP's

Actually, what you overlooked was my post :) That's not what I said.

I'll rephrase. If I go back and take a close look at what those
185 Con
218 Lab
have said before the referendum was announced, one by one... Are you really claiming that those 185+218=403 MPs have never dissed the EU over their entire political career? No moaning whatsoever?

Of course nearly all the MP's have issues with the EU, one issue that stands out, for me, is Juncker, he should never have been made President. I would suggest even Frau Merkel agrees with that.

The EU smells of roses for all 403?
UK politicians never flip-flop on issues? ;)

All politicians, of all parties in all nations, flipflop

But it may be a good idea to start from the beginning and explain exactly how much "sway" you think politicians actually have when it comes to a referendum like IN/OUT.

Obviously in this case, possibly because they didn't think Brexit would win, they didn't put enough effort in, explaining the pro's and con's.
And that the only way to change the EU and it's direction is from the inside.

Or let me try one more:

The Scots got kicked in the teeth by the EUsters a few days ago. You think that went unnoticed by the average Scotsman?

At the moment I think the majority of Scots will follow Nicola Sturgeon, no matter where she will lead them.

At the moment I think the majority of Scots will follow Nicola Sturgeon, no matter where she will lead them.

That's cute :)
You know Rajoy & the gang mowed her down right? That's how they roll. It may have been a bit of a shock to any Scots paying attention!

Welcome to the EU Scotland!
/s

(Though I'm sure the EU will flip-flop on this issue too, once they realize how bad it looked.)

----

All politicians, of all parties in all nations, flipflop

Yes, I know you know that. Those were rhetorical questions you answered to :)

----

one issue that stands out, for me, is Juncker, he should never have been made President. I would suggest even Frau Merkel agrees with that.

LOL. I hope you meant "...Frau Merkel agrees with that [by now]" because I'm hoping you are aware of this (just a random link, first one I found on back then):
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/20/juncker-merkel-cameron-britain-eu-european-commission
Which reminds me. Back in the previous thread when I said I thought LEAVE was gonna win, a couple of the questions I asked were:
If the Tories hate the EU because Cameron got high-profile egg on his face...TWICE
And if Guardian readers hate the EU because... they read the Guardian
Then who exactly is going to vote REMAIN?
(Apart from thirtysomething% of the youngsters that bothered to show up to vote)

Like I said... I really thought LEAVE would be more like 56%.

---

And here's my whole point, and the ONLY point I'm trying to make ATM:

Of course nearly all the MP's have issues with the EU

...and made no bones about it. For years.
What makes you think the public forgot all that moaning?
Because majority of Parliament woke up one day and said "no, no, no, we didn't MEAN it! Please vote REMAIN"

?

The way I see it everyone in the UK voted on how much democracy they wanted in their lives. And voted in a very democratic way, might I add.

one issue that stands out, for me, is Juncker, he should never have been made President. I would suggest even Frau Merkel agrees with that.



LOL. I hope you meant "...Frau Merkel agrees with that [by now]" because I'm hoping you are aware of this (just a random link, first one I found on back then):
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/20/juncker-merkel-cameron-britain-eu-european-commission

I was thinking back these stories,
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/power-struggle-europts-between-european-parliament-and-eu-leaders-a-972870.html
and http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/merkel-likely-to-seek-eu-compromise-with-london-a-973962.html
when she had to compromise to keep the coalition together in Germany or she might have lost power.