The Valid Fears and Concerns of The American People
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The Valid Fears and Concerns of The American People
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bobby  Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3 
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Kicking this off. Another poster asserts that the presumptive Republican candidate will win the 2016 Presidential elections unless others recognize that there are "Valid Fears and Concerns of The American People", and provide solutions for them. What are these fears and concerns? I have no idea, perhaps you can help me. For myself, my greatest fear and concern at the moment is that the presumptive Republican candidate will win the 2016 Presidential elections, though as I've only been "of The American People" for less than a decade, I may be in the minority. I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ... 
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 Gary Charpentier     Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30638 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32
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Kicking this off. Another poster asserts that the presumptive Republican candidate will win the 2016 Presidential elections unless others recognize that there are "Valid Fears and Concerns of The American People", and provide solutions for them. That fear is very high on my list. Also high on my list are the fear that his party will establish religious tests for private rights and services. I'm worried there will be mandatory pregnancy laws. I'm worried that every effort will be made to use more oil and coal. I'm worried NASA will go away. I'm worried that school standards will be lowered to the point that children will no longer be able to get a job. I'm worried the Nominee will sign legislation raising taxes on everyone except the upper class. I'm worried that all the civil rights legislation going back to reconstruction will be repealed. I'm worried that the only concerns which will reach lawmakers ears will require seven figure campaign contributions to be heard. I'm worried that encryption will be outlawed. I'm worried that Social Security will be gutted. In short I'm worried that the nominee will abolish democracy and the USA with it. As to that wall he is going to have Mexico build, if he can get them to do it, I bet it follows the border that existed before Tratado de Guadalupe Hidalgo. I'm not sure that worries me though. It might be win-win for the southwest. 
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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30638 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32
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#Illegal immigrants account for about 3.5 percent of the U.S population, they represented 36.7 percent of federal sentences in FY 2014 #1:http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/08/politics/immigrants-crime/ #2:http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/08/08/illegal-alien-crime-accounts-for-over-30-of-murders-in-some-states #2a:http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/aug/17/tom-tancredo/tancredo-muffs-illegal-immigrant-murder-stats/ #3:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/07/02/surprise-donald-trump-is-wrong-about-immigrants-and-crime/ #4:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/09/16/crime-wave-elusive-data-shows-frightening-toll-illegal-immigrant-criminals.html #5:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/07/16/voices-gomez-undocumented-immigrant-crime-san-francisco-shooting/30159479/ #6:http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/07/illegal_aliens_murder_at_a_much_higher_rate_than_us_citizens_do.html Seems to get the numbers to work, the mere fact that they are undocumented is a felony conviction. That sounds like a well duh. Now is the candidate mathematically challenged? If so how can he be trusted to figure out income tax?!!
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bobby Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3
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Seems to get the numbers to work, the mere fact that they are undocumented is a felony conviction. That sounds like a well duh. Now is the candidate mathematically challenged? If so how can he be trusted to figure out income tax?!! I understand that if one drops the word "valid" then you may have a point. Gary has provided the data that shows that the fears and concerns about criminality amongst undocumented immigrants does not appear to be based on an understanding of the facts (your quoting of a breitbart.com article and not providing a link to the source http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/07/illegal-immigrants-accounted-for-nearly-37-percent-of-federal-sentences-in-fy-2014/ demonstrates this, the article ends with a paragraph that reduces 36.7% to 13.6%, for a more realistic, though by no means sound, comparison). Similarly, your 95 million figure rates a mostly false from the fact checkers (a better number is 20 million, which is, by no means good, though somewhat less scary). Of course, the facts may not matter when it comes to a presidential election campaign. This thread is not about the elections, it's not about attacking any particular campaign , it's about the valid fears and concerns of the american people. Please remain on topic. I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...
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W-K 666  Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19048 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 
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Is it not perceived fears that is most important factor in deciding where to place ones vote. How many research the facts? Is the fact that Fox News is the most watched news channel a factor? ID: 1792101 · |
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bobby Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3
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Is it not perceived fears that is most important factor in deciding where to place ones vote. Such fears may well inform a voter, and said voter may not have performed research to establish the validity of their fears. This thread is not meant to be a catalog of all possible fears and concerns that may be perceived by the american people, it's about the subset that are valid, i.e. those that are "fair and reasonable" or "sound and justifiable". I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...
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bobby Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3
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Is it not perceived fears that is most important factor in deciding where to place ones vote. CLYDE, in this thread, ad-hominems will not be tolerated. There will not be a second warning. I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...
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bobby Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3
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Is it not perceived fears that is most important factor in deciding where to place ones vote. Where was it said that these are not valid fears and concerns? The data you have provided thus far does not support your claim, other data might. Thanks for providing a catalog of perceived fears and concerns, please provide the data that supports their validity. I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...
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bobby Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3
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bobby... There has been no dismissal. There has been a request for data. Please note "This thread is not about the elections". I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...
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janneseti  Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 
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bobby... I think you can get all the data you need by just reading media that describe what many americans fears and are concerned about. Main topics are as Clyde says. People losing their jobs... ID: 1792114 · |
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bobby Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3
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As janne stated. My post of: Please cease asking what amounts to "when did you stop beating your wife?" Being able to construct a sentence that describes what might be a valid fear or concern, does not make the fear or concern valid. Validity requires that the fear or concern be fair and reasonable. The fears and concerns raised thus fair may be valid, though, to date, there is insufficient data in this thread by which to make such a determination. Please provide some. I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...
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bobby Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3
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As janne stated. My post of: How does one equate "the fears and concerns raised thus fair may be valid" with "dismissing"? Perhaps an, albeit off topic, example might help. Are fears of sharks valid? After reading the linked article, my assessment is that the fear is not valid, it may be fair (sharks do attack people), though it is not reasonable (due to the vanishingly small chance of being attacked). Talking to people may not help in a determination of the validity of a fear of sharks. I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...
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KWSN - MajorKong  Send message Joined: 5 Jan 00 Posts: 2892 Credit: 1,499,890 RAC: 0
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Seems to get the numbers to work, the mere fact that they are undocumented is a felony conviction. That sounds like a well duh. Now is the candidate mathematically challenged? If so how can he be trusted to figure out income tax?!! Bobby, 1. You discuss statistics here. In the words of that eminent American philosopher, Mark Twain/Sam Clements, "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics." 2. Those numbers on sentencing are correct, as far as they go -- supposedly. I have seen multiple news reports on them, but have not (yet) found the source data. 3. Those numbers are for *FEDERAL* sentencing *ONLY*. Most crimes in the USA are *STATE* crimes. 4. The reduction from 36.7% down to 13.6% happens when one *excludes* the crime of being in the USA illegally from the list of Federal Crimes that the Federal Government collects data for. 13.6% is STILL way higher than the about 3.5% of the population that the 'illegals' make up. So... they DO get sentenced for conviction of *other* Federal crimes at a rate that exceeds their share of the population by a factor of about 4. 5. As that fact-checker website you linked says: Bloggers and pundits have said that 90 million Americans either aren’t working or aren’t looking for work. That’s a real number, but it includes high schoolers, college students and retirement-age Americans, leaving perhaps 20 million a better approximation. 6. So, in other words, these bloggers, pundits and politicians are behaving as they normally do. They use *correct* statistics in misleading ways to further their own political positions. Almost everyone does this. You are expecting different? 7. As to *valid* fears and concerns... Well, certainly these fears and concerns are *valid* to those that hold them. You have suddenly become the Thought Police where you decide what thoughts are valid and what thoughts are not? I have a set of fears and concerns about where the USA, indeed the world, is headed. To me, they are valid, and that is all that matters. They are, after all, *my* fears and concerns. As yours are... yours. Now then, I may not agree with everything Clyde says. But, I think he is correct when he mentions "Trump's Game Plan". My own study of history has revealed quite a number of examples of the 'Game plan' being used, frequently successfully. Trump's opponents ARE enabling his victory by NOT addressing The People's Fears and Concerns. This is the big danger in Populism. Regardless of what Trump may believe himself, he is taking advantage of the valid (to them, at least) fears and concerns of a sizable portion of the People in an attempt to gain what he really wants (political power). I have a valid Fear/Concern that this is a very dangerous situation. You may disagree. That is your right. ID: 1792142 · |
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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30638 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32
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I think you can get all the data you need by just reading media that describe what many americans fears and are concerned about. Ah, the bullet points of Rupert Murdoch's Opinion. They are not the valid fears of America, they are what Rupert Murdoch wants the fears of American's to focus upon. Now as to Faux having the most eyeballs, well, there is one right outlet, there are what 50+ left outlets. Add the view of the 50 left outlets together and compare to Faux. It seems that the right is very mathematically challenged. Now that is a valid fear. Losing your job, you are known for your last screw up. Underemployed, er try substituting Living Wage. Stopped looking for work? Code for the right thinks they are paying too much in welfare. No raise in a decade, try Living Wage or the fear of the right they will be paying out money. You must understand what is going on in the mind of Rupert Murdoch that he blasts out on Faux. He is terrified his wallet will shrink! That is his valid fear. Unfortunately a great number of people succumb to his propaganda, people who can't think for themselves and are mathematically and scientifically challenged. That there are so many who are mathematically and scientifically challenged is a valid fear.
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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30638 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32
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Please cease asking what amounts to "when did you stop beating your wife?"I think his point is that is Drumpf's campaign in a nutshell. ID: 1792146 · |
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KWSN - MajorKong Send message Joined: 5 Jan 00 Posts: 2892 Credit: 1,499,890 RAC: 0
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http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=77605&postid=1792154 The BBC article that Sirus B linked in the post I replied to has it nailed... The 40 year hurt... ID: 1792158 · |
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Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79
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Samuel Clemens' Octagonal Study.  It overlooks a pond. A nice place to sit and think at night. Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes. ID: 1792160 · |
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janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0
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I think you can get all the data you need by just reading media that describe what many americans fears and are concerned about. We don't have Fox News here anymore. In the 90's we had that channel and even Bill O'Reilly telling/shouting what we the audiance should think! We can choose from other news media. Many European media are very much monitoring the US political climate today. Even Russia:) The most common factor reported by them is that americans have fears about the job situation. The Donald Trump slogan "Let's Make America Great Again" is only one sign of the fears and concerns of the american people today. ID: 1792168 · |
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bobby Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3
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Seems to get the numbers to work, the mere fact that they are undocumented is a felony conviction. That sounds like a well duh. Now is the candidate mathematically challenged? If so how can he be trusted to figure out income tax?!! Indeed, and I should have made that point when I stated "for a more realistic, though by no means sound, comparison". 4. The reduction from 36.7% down to 13.6% happens when one *excludes* the crime of being in the USA illegally from the list of Federal Crimes that the Federal Government collects data for. 13.6% is STILL way higher than the about 3.5% of the population that the 'illegals' make up. So... they DO get sentenced for conviction of *other* Federal crimes at a rate that exceeds their share of the population by a factor of about 4. Indeed. Though that number is misleading; as you've already noted, it is not a measure of criminality in general. It might be noted there is other data suggesting rates of crimes are lower amongst first generation immigrants (for example, this). 5. As that fact-checker website you linked says: I am not expecting anything of bloggers, pundits and politicians. I was hoping that posters to this thread would not parrot their misleading data in support of a claim to validity. 7. As to *valid* fears and concerns... Well, certainly these fears and concerns are *valid* to those that hold them. You have suddenly become the Thought Police where you decide what thoughts are valid and what thoughts are not? If you want to have a discussion as to what the term "valid" means, by all means start one, for the purposes of this thread, it's "fair and reasonable" or "sound and justifiable". There is no intent to become a "Thought Police", and if you disagree with my grounds for establishing validity, by all means propose others. As stated in the OP, this thread is to help me understand the valid fears and concerns of the american people, changing my understanding of the word "valid" may help me here, though may have negative consequences for me in other walks of life (for instance, the validity of results based upon my personal feelings may not be transferable to my role as a software engineer). I have a set of fears and concerns about where the USA, indeed the world, is headed. To me, they are valid, and that is all that matters. They are, after all, *my* fears and concerns. As yours are... yours. Do you believe that you must accept what others perceive as valid fears and concerns, as valid for you? If not, what would be required to help you accept those fears and concerns? Now then, I may not agree with everything Clyde says. But, I think he is correct when he mentions "Trump's Game Plan". This thread is not about any particular campaign. With regards to your final fear/concern, it looks like one you share with Gary and I, though I would not claim this fear is valid. I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...
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MOMMY: He is MAKING ME Read His Posts Thoughts and Prayers. GOoD Thoughts and GOoD Prayers. HATERWORLD Vs THOUGHTs and PRAYERs World. It Is a BATTLE ROYALE. Nobody LOVEs Me. Everybody HATEs Me. Why Don't I Go Eat Worms. Tasty Treats are Wormy Meat. Yes  Send message Joined: 16 Jun 02 Posts: 6895 Credit: 6,588,977 RAC: 0
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My FEAR and CONCERN: Bobby and Charp Existing and People As Bobby and Charp Existing. There are Many Bobby[s] and Charp[s]. The Existence of These People, CONCERN Me. And I FEAR Their Existence is Harmful to All Peoples Not Them. The Above is VALID. And [Source] is Me. Yap.  May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!! 
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