Anyone else supporting Bernie Sanders for president?

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Profile John Neale
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Message 1780724 - Posted: 20 Apr 2016, 15:11:38 UTC

"CLYDE", you accuse the "left wing" and the "right wing" of name calling. Sometimes, in these forums, some of those that hold left- and right-wing views do indulge in name calling. More generally, your accusation is against perceived left- and right-wing extremists that, you say, have given rise to the candidacy of Donald Trump through their name-calling.

Fair enough.

But, as bobby has pointed out on several occasions, you yourself, claiming the political middle ground, are also frequently guilty of name-calling. The most recent example from this thread:

As I said: Welcome back, Silly Little Socialist.

Surely that invalidates your argument?
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Message 1780727 - Posted: 20 Apr 2016, 15:26:09 UTC

For a living, I am a software engineer. I solve problems by looking carefully at the problem, and determining the best solution, using the least amount of code. I am not confined by any religious/political ideologies, but look for pragmatic solutions to problems. With problems facing the US/world, I do the same thing. I don't care if a solution comes from the right, the left, or something completely different. I only care that the solution works to solve the problem at hand.

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Message 1780737 - Posted: 20 Apr 2016, 15:50:25 UTC - in response to Message 1780727.  

For a living, I am a software engineer. I solve problems by looking carefully at the problem, and determining the best solution, using the least amount of code. I am not confined by any religious/political ideologies, but look for pragmatic solutions to problems. With problems facing the US/world, I do the same thing. I don't care if a solution comes from the right, the left, or something completely different. I only care that the solution works to solve the problem at hand.

Steve

Quite correct Steve. However as you know, solving the problem puts the politician out of office. Therefore: nothing that comes out of politics will ever solve a problem facing society.
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Message 1780750 - Posted: 20 Apr 2016, 16:27:53 UTC - in response to Message 1780737.  

For a living, I am a software engineer. I solve problems by looking carefully at the problem, and determining the best solution, using the least amount of code. I am not confined by any religious/political ideologies, but look for pragmatic solutions to problems. With problems facing the US/world, I do the same thing. I don't care if a solution comes from the right, the left, or something completely different. I only care that the solution works to solve the problem at hand.

Steve

Quite correct Steve. However as you know, solving the problem puts the politician out of office. Therefore: nothing that comes out of politics will ever solve a problem facing society.

+1

Isn't a major problem with the politicians we have at the moment, and I'm talking most countries now, have very little idea of the real world. They come from privileged backgrounds, get a good education at selected schools, go on to University and study politics, economics, philosophy, or law or a mixture of these. The closest they come to real people is housekeepers or cooks to whom they give orders and never get into conversation with.
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Message 1780857 - Posted: 21 Apr 2016, 0:41:48 UTC - in response to Message 1780750.  


For a living, I am a software engineer. I solve problems by looking carefully at the problem, and determining the best solution, using the least amount of code. I am not confined by any religious/political ideologies, but look for pragmatic solutions to problems. With problems facing the US/world, I do the same thing. I don't care if a solution comes from the right, the left, or something completely different. I only care that the solution works to solve the problem at hand.

Steve

Quite correct Steve. However as you know, solving the problem puts the politician out of office. Therefore: nothing that comes out of politics will ever solve a problem facing society.
+1

Isn't a major problem with the politicians we have at the moment, and I'm talking most countries now, have very little idea of the real world. They come from privileged backgrounds, get a good education at selected schools, go on to University and study politics, economics, philosophy, or law or a mixture of these. The closest they come to real people is housekeepers or cooks to whom they give orders and never get into conversation with.


Yes you are right there but it does depend on what country and what party your talking about .

Bob Hawk ex P.m was working class , public schools , unions and then he educated himself at Uni but still had working class values and is one of our best P.M

Current leader of the Labour Party Bill Shorten also working class public schools and has educated himself at Uni he's now got the government doing back flips on everything and the government are now adopting his economic policy's and yes he came though the Unions

And as our wonderful new Senator Jacky Lambie tweeted the other day "the Lib's are all a bunch of rich kids with silver spoons up there ...."

well done girl go girl power tell it like it is Jackie
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Message 1781157 - Posted: 22 Apr 2016, 1:17:44 UTC - in response to Message 1780727.  

For a living, I am a software engineer. I solve problems by looking carefully at the problem, and determining the best solution, using the least amount of code. I am not confined by any religious/political ideologies, but look for pragmatic solutions to problems. With problems facing the US/world, I do the same thing. I don't care if a solution comes from the right, the left, or something completely different. I only care that the solution works to solve the problem at hand.

Steve


Considering I'm a natural born engineer and that that whole paragraph could have been written by me (if I could code and write that eloquently that is)...

+1

I only wish it felt a lot less "curse" and a lot more "gift" (if you know what I mean).
So it goes, I guess.
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Message 1781202 - Posted: 22 Apr 2016, 6:58:15 UTC

Engineers of the world, unite!

I've always said that the world would be a much better place if it was ruled by engineers. Not everyone agrees with my sentiment. Especially my wife. ;)
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Message 1781260 - Posted: 22 Apr 2016, 11:48:40 UTC - in response to Message 1781202.  

Engineers of the world, unite!

I've always said that the world would be a much better place if it was ruled by engineers. Not everyone agrees with my sentiment. Especially my wife. ;)

As I am out of handbag range, I think, but you never know.

Your wife is wrong.
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Message 1781293 - Posted: 22 Apr 2016, 13:57:48 UTC - in response to Message 1781289.  

"CLYDE", you accuse the "left wing" and the "right wing" of name calling. Sometimes, in these forums, some of those that hold left- and right-wing views do indulge in name calling. More generally, your accusation is against perceived left- and right-wing extremists that, you say, have given rise to the candidacy of Donald Trump through their name-calling.

Fair enough.

But, as bobby has pointed out on several occasions, you yourself, claiming the political middle ground, are also frequently guilty of name-calling. The most recent example from this thread:

As I said: Welcome back, Silly Little Socialist.

Surely that invalidates your argument?

Name Calling regarding an Ideology. IE: NAZISM, Marxism, Capitalism, KKK, Progressive, et al. Is not personal.

You really believe that Silly Little Socialist. Is a Personal Attack.

And (Fill-in the negatives) Capitalist.

Is not?

If one is not. The other is not.

John...

"Surely that invalidates your argument?"

Did I say that calling capitalists names is not the same as calling socialists names? No.

Did I (or you, for that matter, in your oft-repeated arguments) say that the name-calling is necessarily personal? (It might well be, but that is a subset.) The answer, again, is no.

In forums such as these, name-calling invariably descends to the personal level. The argument that you put forth is that Trump's candidacy is fueled by the name-calling of (and I paraphrase) "unthinking, unintelligent, left- and right-wing extremists, ideologues and zealots".

But then you indulge in name-calling. What does that make you?

My argument is not invalidated.
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Message 1781301 - Posted: 22 Apr 2016, 15:16:17 UTC - in response to Message 1781295.  

John...

... you are attacking ...

I haven't attacked anyone.

I have questioned your use of the same name-calling that you accuse others of, since it smacks (to me) of hypocrisy. Nothing more and nothing less.

If you want my opinion, name-calling is puerile and unhelpful, from whichever quarter it arises and for whatever reason it is practised. I subscribe to SciManStev's philosophy, which is to seek workable solutions to problems, regardless of their origin. That requires maturity and objectivity, dialogue and engagement, listening and understanding ... traits and behaviours that are the antithesis of name-calling and baiting.
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Message 1781305 - Posted: 22 Apr 2016, 15:49:59 UTC

If you want my opinion, name-calling is puerile and unhelpful, from whichever quarter it arises and for whatever reason it is practised. I subscribe to SciManStev's philosophy, which is to seek workable solutions to problems, regardless of their origin. That requires maturity and objectivity, dialogue and engagement, listening and understanding ... traits and behaviours that are the antithesis of name-calling and baiting.


+1
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Message 1781315 - Posted: 22 Apr 2016, 16:19:19 UTC - in response to Message 1781305.  
Last modified: 22 Apr 2016, 16:21:19 UTC

If you want my opinion, name-calling is puerile and unhelpful, from whichever quarter it arises and for whatever reason it is practised. I subscribe to SciManStev's philosophy, which is to seek workable solutions to problems, regardless of their origin. That requires maturity and objectivity, dialogue and engagement, listening and understanding ... traits and behaviours that are the antithesis of name-calling and baiting.


+1

+2 and using the word "attack" dozens of times in a post about others is anti-help.
<ed>" No messages intended to annoy or antagonize other people, or to hijack a thread.
No messages that are deliberately hostile, threatening, or insulting.
No abusive comments involving race, religion, nationality, gender, class or sexuality."
What does the word "attack" imply?
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Message 1781376 - Posted: 22 Apr 2016, 21:24:45 UTC - in response to Message 1781202.  

Engineers of the world, unite!

I've always said that the world would be a much better place if it was ruled by engineers. Not everyone agrees with my sentiment. Especially my wife. ;)


Hmmm... a choice between engineers & lawyers... decisions, decisions...
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Message 1781569 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 6:46:24 UTC

That was already explained elsewhere to you Clyde so if your memory is that bad then it's time for you to get help.

Cheers.
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Message 1781629 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 12:53:39 UTC - in response to Message 1781301.  

If you want my opinion, name-calling is puerile and unhelpful, from whichever quarter it arises and for whatever reason it is practised. I subscribe to SciManStev's philosophy, which is to seek workable solutions to problems, regardless of their origin. That requires maturity and objectivity, dialogue and engagement, listening and understanding ... traits and behaviours that are the antithesis of name-calling and baiting.

+1
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1781652 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 14:01:09 UTC - in response to Message 1781514.  

John...

... you are attacking ...

I haven't attacked anyone.

I have questioned your use of the same name-calling that you accuse others of, since it smacks (to me) of hypocrisy. Nothing more and nothing less.

If you want my opinion, name-calling is puerile and unhelpful, from whichever quarter it arises and for whatever reason it is practised. I subscribe to SciManStev's philosophy, which is to seek workable solutions to problems, regardless of their origin. That requires maturity and objectivity, dialogue and engagement, listening and understanding ... traits and behaviours that are the antithesis of name-calling and baiting.

John...

I believe we are at the point of saying:

We agree, to disagree.


You disagree that name-calling is puerile and unhelpful... explains a lot.
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Message 1781669 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 15:13:54 UTC - in response to Message 1781652.  

John...

... you are attacking ...

I haven't attacked anyone.

I have questioned your use of the same name-calling that you accuse others of, since it smacks (to me) of hypocrisy. Nothing more and nothing less.

If you want my opinion, name-calling is puerile and unhelpful, from whichever quarter it arises and for whatever reason it is practised. I subscribe to SciManStev's philosophy, which is to seek workable solutions to problems, regardless of their origin. That requires maturity and objectivity, dialogue and engagement, listening and understanding ... traits and behaviours that are the antithesis of name-calling and baiting.

John...

I believe we are at the point of saying:

We agree, to disagree.


You disagree that name-calling is puerile and unhelpful... explains a lot.

+1 and MODS please take note of his self expressed opinion!
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Message 1781673 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 15:29:16 UTC - in response to Message 1781659.  

Now....

If The Left will allow:

What about a Joe Biden Nomination. To stop Trump?



Hmm...

It seems to me that one of the prime objections that many have on Trump is that he frequently shoots off his mouth and says things that many consider to be 'stupid'.

Considering Biden... Is this not also an objection that many have to Biden? He frequently opens his mouth and stupidity ensues?

Surely there must be someone else the Dems could nominate that has a demonstrated ability to control his/her verbal stupidity emissions and also has an ounce of integrity (something that Clinton lacks)? Sanders, perhaps?

Now then, I do not like his politics, but of all the possibles at the moment in both of the major parties (R's and D's): Cruz, Trump, Clinton, and Sanders, I would probably find a Sanders presidency the least objectionable (assuming of course a Congress with majorities in both houses from the other party, or at least a majority in the House).

Another thing...

We seem to be in the midst of yet another re-alignment of the two Parties...

The white working class, tired of being thrown under the bus repeatedly by the D's (where they formed a main core constituency) seem to be drifting over to the R's... And in response, the top 1%'ers of the top 1%'ers seem to be drifting over to the D's....

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/04/why-democrats-are-becoming-the-party-of-the-1-percent

Something to think about...

Clyde:

Picking and choosing, which name calling is allowed. Attacking those who Respond, and not the Original Attacker.

Means the following:

#1 - Makes my point.

#2 - Understand I am winning the Intellectual Argument.


Yep.

There is a group around here that thinks nothing is wrong with their ad hom. attacks on others they disagree with... a-hole this.... stupid that...

But when the same is reflected back at them, they get all butthurt.

Personally, I wish all the ad hom. around here would stop (or at least get drastically toned down). I know I am guilty of it from time to time, as are ALL of us... But there are times I do lose my cool about various posts/posters. I do try to control it (usually by taking a break from this or that particular thread), but sometimes it slips out. I am human.

It distracts from a discussion of these issues. ALL of us need, in my opinion, to watch what we say and do our best to eliminate the ad hom. from our posts.
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Message 1781788 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 22:01:53 UTC - in response to Message 1781673.  

There is a group around here that thinks nothing is wrong with their ad hom. attacks on others they disagree with... a-hole this.... stupid that...


Oh dear :)

I presented an argument and you "attack" it with an ad hominem. Ironically the attack is accusing me of committing an ad hominem attack. And you do it by delivering an under-the-belt blow by serving me with one of my disclosed severe allergies: PC dogma

I'd like to help you understand what just happened but I'm not confident I can actually untangle this to a point where it's understandable. I'm not even confident the above paragraph looks coherent :D

I assure you it is. And here's yet another stab at an explanation (since this conversation is obviously being carried over from the Varoufakis thread):

The only way you can truly win this argument (because all you are doing now is scoring brownie points*) is to make the case that my psychopath/narcissist detector is broken**

At this point it may be a good idea to remind you that you weren't the only kid in gifted & talented class and also that we are all now adults.

Alex Storey did not call Major K an a*hole. Alex Storey called a public figure (most of them public servants unfortunately) an a*hole. I seriously doubt you are going to argue that this is not allowed, so on to the next paragraph :)

Now the fundamental mistake you are making: it's your logic diagram
Because you believe:

If Alex Storey calls psycho
->then
->Alex Storey is in disagreement with alleged psycho

Unfortunately your logic diagram can not account for:
Alex Storey has nothing against lightbulbs. He still thinks Thomas Edison was an a*hole.
or
Alex Storey is an atheist who has thoroughly enjoyed a few Dawkins books. He still thinks Richard Dawkins is an a*hole.

Or to go back to my favorite psychopath... Wolfgang wakes up tomorrow and -Hallelujah!Miracolo!- does a 180 back to what Helmut started (which is what he should be doing). I'll be a very happy man. But he'll still be a psychopath :)

-----
*I have no reason to believe your intention is to just score brownie points. If I did, this wall of text wouldn't exist.

** the words "psychopath" and "narcissist" have been and will be used interchangeably with the words "sociopath", "a*hole", and much less commonly with "idiot".
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Message 1781872 - Posted: 24 Apr 2016, 1:06:16 UTC - in response to Message 1781788.  

Alex,

What makes you think I was referring to you? You are not the only one around here to have used the phrase 'a-hole'.

Me? Being 'PC'???

You don't know me very well if you think I am 'PC'.

But, it is not 'being PC' to avoid such vulgarisms as 'a-hole' in one's speech, it is being polite.

'PC' is an attempt to force a change in people's thoughts and opinions by forcing a change in the words they use... VERY similar to 'newspeak' in Orwell's "1984". It is a practice that I find highly repugnant.

Seriously, I was not even thinking of you when I posted... It was others I had in mind...
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