The US, as it was brought about by the Founding Fathers, IS a Republic; NOT a Democracy.


Republic vs. Democracy

United States Constitution

Art. 4 Sec. 4 Par. 1

“The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government.” [Not a democracy.]

Pledge of Allegiance – “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands …”

As Benjamin Franklin was leaving the building where, after four months of hard work, the Constitution had been completed and signed, a lady asked him what kind of government the convention had created. A very old, very tired, and very wise Benjamin Franklin replied; “A Republic, ma’am if you can keep it.” (Webster’s dictionary definition: a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law.)

Democracy: Operates by direct majority vote of the people. When an issue is to be decided, the entire population votes on it; the majority wins and rules. A democracy is rule by majority feeling (what the Founding Fathers described as “mobocracy”). Example: in a democracy, if a majority of the people decides that murder is no longer a crime, murder will no longer be a crime.

Republic: Where the general population elects representatives who then pass laws to govern the nation … a republic is rule by law. Our republic is a form of government where power is separated, [our Founding Fathers knew that people are basically weak, sinful and corruptible, (Jeremiah 17:9)], pitting men against each other, making it difficult to pass laws and make changes.

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In answer to Chris S. stating that the US is "NOT" a Republic.


TL

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TimeLord04
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Join Calm Chaos

A Federal Republic--if you will.

Oligarchy.

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

A system of government designed by and for the 1%ers, and still is, even if many more people have the vote.

A system of government designed by and for the 1%ers, and still is, even if many more people have the vote.

Also a very much outdated 18th century piece of toilet paper that really has no relevance whatsoever in the 21st century and especially so with the advances in technology that have been made since it was written, but hardline fossils who would like to live in the past still take it word for word sadly. :-(

Cheers.

This is comparing apples with oranges.
Democracy?
Which type of them?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_democracy
Democracies can be classified in different ways with a recent list showing that this might extend to as many as 507 types!

Oligarchy.

Sarge...

Absolutely correct.

Solving one problem (mob rule - as Wiggo wishes). Usually results in another problem.

How to solve the New Problem. Is another question.

But isn't this support for Trump mob rule.

The mob being the mainly white, working or lower middle class, often uniformed or misinformed, who believe that their expectations for their retirement haven't or won't be met. Those that believe that global warming is an invention of the Chinese so they could pinch the working class jobs. When all along it was because these Trump supports thought those high paid low skill jobs were for life and failed to see emerging nations, like China, had lots of workers willing to those same jobs for a few cents/hr. Just the same as they didn't see Japan et al take all the electronics, car and ship building jobs in the 60's and 70's.

[Bringing this Thread back on track...]

The US Government, under The Constitution, is a Republic:

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John Witherspoon, signer - “Pure democracy cannot subsist long nor be carried far into the departments of state – it is very subject to caprice and the madness of popular rage.”

Zephaniah Swift, author of America’s first legal text - “It may generally be remarked that the more a government resembles a pure democracy the more they abound with disorder and confusion.”

Benjamin Rush, signer - “ a simple democracy … is one of the greatest of evils.”

John Quincy Adams - “The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived.”

Noah Webster - “In democracy … there are commonly tumults and disorders … Therefore a pure democracy is generally a very bad government. It is often the most tyrannical government on earth.”

James Madison - “Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.”

John Adams - “Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.”

Fisher Ames, author of the House language for the First Amendment - “A democracy is a volcano which conceals the fiery materials of its own destruction. These will produce an eruption and carry desolation in their way. The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious call, and the ignorant believe to be liberty !! NOTE … look at today’s sexual freedoms.

Gouverneur Morris, signer and penman of the Constitution - “We have seen the tumult of democracy terminate … as [it has] everywhere terminated, in despotism … Democracy! savage and wild. Thou who wouldst bring down the virtuous and wise to the level of folly and guilt.”

Samuel Adams – “… it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people’s minds …”

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As stated by the signers, we are governed by Rule of Law.


TL

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TimeLord04
Have TARDIS, will travel...
Come along K-9!
Join Calm Chaos

[Bringing this Thread back on track...]

The US Government, under The Constitution, is a Republic:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

John Witherspoon, signer - “Pure democracy cannot subsist long nor be carried far into the departments of state – it is very subject to caprice and the madness of popular rage.”

Zephaniah Swift, author of America’s first legal text - “It may generally be remarked that the more a government resembles a pure democracy the more they abound with disorder and confusion.”

Benjamin Rush, signer - “ a simple democracy … is one of the greatest of evils.”

John Quincy Adams - “The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived.”

Noah Webster - “In democracy … there are commonly tumults and disorders … Therefore a pure democracy is generally a very bad government. It is often the most tyrannical government on earth.”

James Madison - “Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.”

John Adams - “Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.”

Fisher Ames, author of the House language for the First Amendment - “A democracy is a volcano which conceals the fiery materials of its own destruction. These will produce an eruption and carry desolation in their way. The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious call, and the ignorant believe to be liberty !! NOTE … look at today’s sexual freedoms.

Gouverneur Morris, signer and penman of the Constitution - “We have seen the tumult of democracy terminate … as [it has] everywhere terminated, in despotism … Democracy! savage and wild. Thou who wouldst bring down the virtuous and wise to the level of folly and guilt.”

Samuel Adams – “… it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people’s minds …”

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As stated by the signers, we are governed by Rule of Law.


TL

This thread has NOT gone off track.
Do you DENY that, despite the intentions of the Founders, the USA has become an oligarchy?

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

NOTE … look at today’s sexual freedoms.

Bristol Palin, unwed & two unplanned pregnancies. Family fighting the fact that the second baby-daddy wants to be involved.

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

republic definition

A form of government in which power is explicitly vested in the people, who in turn exercise their power through elected representatives. Today, the terms republic and democracy are virtually interchangeable, but historically the two differed. Democracy implied direct rule by the people, all of whom were equal, whereas republic implied a system of government in which the will of the people was mediated by representatives, who might be wiser and better educated than the average person.

In the early American republic, for example, the requirement that voters own property and the establishment of institutions such as the Electoral College were intended to cushion the government from the direct expression of the popular will.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/republic

So in your mind a Republic is not a Democracy, yet most people say it is a Democracy. and this definition supports that.

Also the Republic set up initially only had about 2% or the population eligible to vote. That to me says it was NOT set up with the interests of all the people in mind.

So as they now allow all people to vote, but as far as I can see, only for people who are either 1%ers or backed by the 1%ers. So not much of a democracy either.

Do you honestly think you, or one of your family or friends could enter the election for a position of power?
Probably not because you are not one of them nor have a bottomless pit of money. Even if the Powerball had been one by one person they probably wouldn't have had enough money to enter the race for president, without help from backers.

So the US was a Republic that tried to change into a Democracy, and has not yet got to the top. If it ever will.

From the Wiki which quotes the Economist, at the last count the USA was 19th out of the World's 24 Full Democracies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

From your quotes I thought the one from John Adams is a pretty apt description of the US today.

but hardline fossils who would like to live in the past still take it word for word sadly.

That seems to apply to religious fanatics as well, oh wait, those hardline fossils are religious fanatics!

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I cannot be part of the mob, I'm just an observer from across the pond, who throws in the occasional comment on how things look from afar.

From the Wiki which quotes the Economist, at the last count the USA was 19th out of the World's 24 Full Democracies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

I find it rather strange that out of the World's 24 Full Democracies five countries are monarchies, not republics.

1	 Norway  	9.93	Full democracy
2	 Sweden 	9.73	Full democracy
5	 Denmark	9.11	Full democracy
10	 Netherlands	8.92	Full democracy
16	 United Kingdom	8.31	Full democracy

I cannot be part of the mob, I'm just an observer from across the pond, who throws in the occasional comment on how things look from afar.

Understand.

The Continental USA. A myriad of Cultures, Languages, Religions - or lack of. Many, who cannot stand each other:

Is a difficult Country to Define.

That applies to most countries, not just the US.

And I understand what you are saying, as I was in the US for about 50% of the time from Sept 1979 till May 1981 which covered the Carter - Reagan election year. With three Americans, from CA, NM and NY plus a Norwegian and, our leader, an Italian who had post grad qualifications from MIT. It was an education.

From the Wiki which quotes the Economist, at the last count the USA was 19th out of the World's 24 Full Democracies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

I find it rather strange that out of the World's 24 Full Democracies five countries are monarchies, not republics.

1	 Norway  	9.93	Full democracy
2	 Sweden 	9.73	Full democracy
5	 Denmark	9.11	Full democracy
10	 Netherlands	8.92	Full democracy
16	 United Kingdom	8.31	Full democracy

You need to look further. What about Australia, New Zealand and Luxemboug.

And in how many of the Republics is the President an honorary position with no political power.

From the Wiki which quotes the Economist, at the last count the USA was 19th out of the World's 24 Full Democracies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

I find it rather strange that out of the World's 24 Full Democracies five countries are monarchies, not republics.

1	 Norway  	9.93	Full democracy
2	 Sweden 	9.73	Full democracy
5	 Denmark	9.11	Full democracy
10	 Netherlands	8.92	Full democracy
16	 United Kingdom	8.31	Full democracy

You need to look further. What about Australia, New Zealand and Luxemboug.

And in how many of the Republics is the President an honorary position with no political power.

I forgot that Australia, New Zealand and Canada are part of the British Commonwealth:)
Malta?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations

Democracy: Operates by direct majority vote of the people. When an issue is to be decided, the entire population votes on it; the majority wins and rules. A democracy is rule by majority feeling (what the Founding Fathers described as “mobocracy”). Example: in a democracy, if a majority of the people decides that murder is no longer a crime, murder will no longer be a crime.

Republic: Where the general population elects representatives who then pass laws to govern the nation … a republic is rule by law. Our republic is a form of government where power is separated, [our Founding Fathers knew that people are basically weak, sinful and corruptible, (Jeremiah 17:9)], pitting men against each other, making it difficult to pass laws and make changes.

This has to be one of the dumbest things taught to Americans, that the country is a republic not a democracy. Thanks to Madison and Federalist 10, this false dichotomy has become ingrained in a nation that understands both terms by his politically motivated mis-definitions (as repeated in the OP and quoted above).

In modern usage outside the US, Madison's "democracy" is a direct democracy, the likes of which have not really been seen since the Athenian republic, and Madison's "republic" is a representative democracy, which is the system in place in most western liberal democracies (my fellow citizens, please don't take offense at the use of the word "liberal", it does not mean what Fox has told you, instead read some John Locke to get a better idea of classical liberalism and why it's appropriate to call the US a liberal democracy).

Confusion abounds if we use Madison's definitions when discussing political systems with people from other nations, as under his definitions, the UK is a republic, and no nation is a democracy (Switzerland is probably closest). The rest of the world uses Machiavelli's definition for republic, and if we did, we'd still be able to call the US a republic, though we'd see that the UK is not one, i.e. a republic is a place where the head of state is selected from the public, not a descendant of the previous head of state.

Why can't we use the terms democracy and republic as they are understood by the wider world, and in our schools of political science?

If we use the terms in this way, the US is a republic (has a President, elected from the people) and a democracy (has a representative democracy, in which the citizens choose their legislators in regular elections).

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

+1

Clyde you're 1 of those with the "primitive beliefs" (as you keep proving to the rest of us time and again) and as for "mob rule" you're also 1 of those that are building the foundation base for such a scenario to happen.

And as for "A myriad of Cultures, Languages, Religions" you really need to open your eyes and mind as there are many other countries in the world that are more "multi-cultural" than your own.

Cheers.