Another example of USA Gun Laws (or lack of...)?

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Message 1922599 - Posted: 3 Mar 2018, 23:46:37 UTC - in response to Message 1922576.  

Yes, ours isn't written , but after the Romans left the UK in 410, we were using Roman Laws until we decided to replace that with something better.

Roman Laws for Trial and Justice are known, and they were practiced as a means of Justice for longer in the UK than the US has existed as a country.

See Roman Law in Anglo Saxon England by John Frederick Winkler, 2007

Roman Laws were notably practiced in the Mid-12th Century in England, and there is evidence that they were a part of the body of Law up until the 17th Century

If you want to read about the history of law, in all its forms worldwide then Berkeley has a great library.
https://www.law.berkeley.edu/research/the-robbins-collection/
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Message 1922601 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 0:00:26 UTC - in response to Message 1922494.  

That is odd, here you're probably looking at a couple of thousand for an illegal handgun, and maybe the same for an illegal rifle.
Whilst all illegal firearms are second hand, they want new money due to the risk, and the fact that no legal owner would sell to criminal, in fact I understand the cost is so high that even drug gangs have a shared weapon, stored at a drop site, which also reduces the risk of being caught in possession.

Perhaps Britain doesn't have so many immigrants from the Balkans like in Sweden when they came here in the 90's when there was a war there and weapons was available everywhere.
The weapons there are still available here by smugglers.
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Message 1922606 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 0:18:18 UTC - in response to Message 1922601.  
Last modified: 4 Mar 2018, 0:22:05 UTC

That is odd, here you're probably looking at a couple of thousand for an illegal handgun, and maybe the same for an illegal rifle.
Whilst all illegal firearms are second hand, they want new money due to the risk, and the fact that no legal owner would sell to criminal, in fact I understand the cost is so high that even drug gangs have a shared weapon, stored at a drop site, which also reduces the risk of being caught in possession.

Perhaps Britain doesn't have so many immigrants from the Balkans like in Sweden when they came here in the 90's when there was a war there and weapons was available everywhere.
The weapons there are still available here by smugglers.


Now don't get me talking about open borders across Europe, I'll start getting angry about Merkin, Barmy, Junk, and Verhofprat, and have to reveal I voted Leave, and want WTO Rules from March 2019, and that you Continentals just don't understand us, and the fact that we presume innocence and need the State to prove guilt, rather than the Napoleonic version adopted by the EU and ECJ of presumed guilt requiring the individual to prove innocence.

A whole can of worms we don't need opening here.
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Message 1922609 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 0:59:02 UTC - in response to Message 1922606.  

That is odd, here you're probably looking at a couple of thousand for an illegal handgun, and maybe the same for an illegal rifle.
Whilst all illegal firearms are second hand, they want new money due to the risk, and the fact that no legal owner would sell to criminal, in fact I understand the cost is so high that even drug gangs have a shared weapon, stored at a drop site, which also reduces the risk of being caught in possession.

Perhaps Britain doesn't have so many immigrants from the Balkans like in Sweden when they came here in the 90's when there was a war there and weapons was available everywhere.
The weapons there are still available here by smugglers.


Now don't get me talking about open borders across Europe, I'll start getting angry about Merkin, Barmy, Junk, and Verhofprat, and have to reveal I voted Leave, and want WTO Rules from March 2019, and that you Continentals just don't understand us, and the fact that we presume innocence and need the State to prove guilt, rather than the Napoleonic version adopted by the EU and ECJ of presumed guilt requiring the individual to prove innocence.

A whole can of worms we don't need opening here.

Oh dear. I'm talking about gun problems, not immigration or open border problems.
It so happens that weapons often comes from places where there have been a war.
In Balkan there was a big war in the 90's and many weapons became available on the European "market" and still are.
Markets like Sweden.
Now even a lot of Ukrainian weapons are smuggled out from there because it's war going on there right now.
If they reach the Swedish "market" I dont know.

And I'm and no other Scandinavian is a Continental.
And please drop Brexit discussions in this thread.
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Message 1922614 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 1:11:52 UTC - in response to Message 1922599.  

History is written by the victors IMHO. And today add the so called 'fake news' to the mix. Neapolitan into a blender, choices are your spin... Ever ask the losers how it was. har...

Berkeley is becoming suspect with their SJWs augmenting history. Any thing political on wiki is impossible now. There is a course offered on how to spin wiki to your hearts desire. Just Google/Bing it IF YOU NEED links. har...

Try US State's history. It's a friggin' joke. In my travels growing up as a Brat I could ace my current local state's history/US history tests but fail the next state's history/US history tests until I learned that state's histoircal spins. Real life experiences, any Brats on here? har...

Europe's and the world's recorded history is much older than the USA's for sure but if you look back into it you will see that the victors write history and rewrite history.

Statue destruction world wide and in the USA these days is the best here and now example of rewriting history. IMHO. har... IMHO... har... like anybody really cares what anybody else opinion is. Opinions are just targets here.

I was taught to learn from history as painful as it is. I'm ready. SF
...
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Message 1922617 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 1:22:58 UTC - in response to Message 1922614.  
Last modified: 4 Mar 2018, 1:24:27 UTC

History is written by the victors IMHO.

I would rephrase that to History is written by the victors.
Thats my honest opion.
Always have and always be.
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Message 1922641 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 2:44:14 UTC - in response to Message 1922583.  

Yes, ours isn't written , but after the Romans left the UK in 410, we were using Roman Laws until we decided to replace that with something better.
Roman Laws for Trial and Justice are known, and they were practiced as a means of Justice for longer in the UK than the US has existed as a country.
See Roman Law in Anglo Saxon England by John Frederick Winkler, 2007
Roman Laws were notably practiced in the Mid-12th Century in England, and there is evidence that they were a part of the body of Law up until the 17th Century

Pax Romana comes to mind:)
However Roman law system is actually practised even today in the Western world.
But that is not a Constitution of a nation.


Of course it is... Even in the USA.

The US State of Louisiana has as its legal basis Roman Law, not English Common Law.
https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.
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Message 1922647 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 3:15:38 UTC - in response to Message 1922641.  

Yes, ours isn't written , but after the Romans left the UK in 410, we were using Roman Laws until we decided to replace that with something better.
Roman Laws for Trial and Justice are known, and they were practiced as a means of Justice for longer in the UK than the US has existed as a country.
See Roman Law in Anglo Saxon England by John Frederick Winkler, 2007
Roman Laws were notably practiced in the Mid-12th Century in England, and there is evidence that they were a part of the body of Law up until the 17th Century

Pax Romana comes to mind:)
However Roman law system is actually practised even today in the Western world.
But that is not a Constitution of a nation.

Of course it is... Even in the USA.
The US State of Louisiana has as its legal basis Roman Law, not English Common Law.

Now it's getting complicated.
I now just read about the English Common Law and the connection with the Roman Law.
And then I was thinking of the connection between the Swedish Basic Law and the Roman Law.
There are obviously many differences.
But there is also common denomaters that's clearly inspired by the Roman Law.
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Message 1922665 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 5:06:03 UTC - in response to Message 1922647.  
Last modified: 4 Mar 2018, 5:07:02 UTC

This might help you get started in understanding the US position on Law. https://www.law.berkeley.edu/library/robbins/CommonLawCivilLawTraditions.html
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Message 1922690 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 11:31:47 UTC

Why is it that people like Martin, whom I used to respect a lot on these boards, posts crap to make it look like EVERY law abiding citizen is a BAD GUY just because they have one or more guns? So fraking what!!! The LAW ABIDING citizens with guns are NOT the problem and taking away OUR right to own them is not going to make the rest of the world happy. There will still be gun violence here as it is throughout the world.

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Message 1922691 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 11:43:02 UTC

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Message 1922694 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 12:55:15 UTC - in response to Message 1922691.  
Last modified: 4 Mar 2018, 13:01:18 UTC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB7MwvqCtlk

Yes. And this is the US today!
Probably that kid got his gun cheaper than dirt as well:(

The US is a country where sex is very bad and guns are very good.
Geez:(
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Message 1922699 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 13:08:59 UTC - in response to Message 1922690.  

Why is it that people like Martin, whom I used to respect a lot on these boards, posts crap to make it look like EVERY law abiding citizen is a BAD GUY just because they have one or more guns? So fraking what!!! The LAW ABIDING citizens with guns are NOT the problem and taking away OUR right to own them is not going to make the rest of the world happy. There will still be gun violence here as it is throughout the world.

Siran

Yes, there is gun violence just about everywhere in the world.But didn't you see or hear this about 10 days ago. And I accept that owning a gun doesn't make US citizens criminals. But unfortunately because of the large number and the ease of obtaining them, they easily fall into the hands of criminals.

“A preference for crimes of personal force and the willingness and ability to use guns in robbery make similar levels of property crime 54 times as deadly in New York City as in London.”


Also the only stat that stands up as the reason for the large number of deaths and injuries in the US is the large number of guns in the US. NYT
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Message 1922730 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 16:42:58 UTC

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Message 1922732 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 16:58:54 UTC - in response to Message 1922730.  
Last modified: 4 Mar 2018, 16:59:46 UTC

Sad.
What were the odds?

Lightning never strikes twice, so they say.
Well a schoolmate of mine was struck by lightning twice once.
But that was an accident.
Nothing like in the US where guns are free, cheaper than dirt and even kids use them to kill other people!
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Message 1922744 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 17:55:25 UTC - in response to Message 1922691.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB7MwvqCtlk


Apples and oranges, dude... Likely CNN totally staged it anyway.

The beer, the cigarettes, and the lottery ticket sales failed. Those were attempted at licensed retail stores. The police will frequently run sting operations where they will send kids in to try to buy. If a sale happens, the police move in and arrest the clerk (who faces a sizable fine and possibly jail). Also the business owner faces a fine and almost certain loss of their license for a certain amount of time to sell said age-restricted items. It will hit everyone in the wallet, and the clerk is gonna spend at least several hours in jail, get fired, and have a rap-sheet... Everyone concerned has an extreme case of religion about making sure that no underage sales happen. Most places that sell booze have a store policy that either everyone shows ID (I consider this the fairest option), or anyone appearing to be under 40 will have to.

The 'gun at the gun show'... That was a private sale, not a sale from a Federally-licensed gun dealer to a private citizen. A sale from one private citizen to another. The weapon in question was a .22lr bolt-action rifle, not something like a semi-auto AR-15 (.223 REM). The boy's mother (ohh.. a parent) was along (and undoubtedly gave her permission). The sale was 100% legal. Did the video show the paperwork (bill-of-sale) being filled out? Did the mother have to provide any information? In some jurisdictions, her verbal permission would have been enough. In others, she would have had to buy it herself, then gift it to her son, like that video of the 10-year old girl getting that $2000 shotgun (Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon) for her birthday. Too much gun (high$$, major brand, and fancy) for her in my opinion especially since an off-brand plain one can be had for under $500. But the 13-year old boy in this video? A plain, used, bolt-action .22lr rifle is a good gun for him as a first one. Perfect to learn gun safety and to learn to shoot. I would recommend a NRA gun safety class for him to start with.

By the time I was 9 years old, I was in practice with quite a variety of rifles and shotguns, including an M1 Garand (30-06 Semi-automatic WWII US Army infantry rifle), though I was not too keen on using it... Fookin thing kicked like a mule. But at least I could shoot it (and hit the target) and reload it without getting my thumb caught in the action. My dad wouldn't let me touch a handgun until I was in my mid-teens... Too easy to accidentally hurt myself (or someone else) with them due to short barrel length.

As you can likely tell, I am not against teaching children gun safety and how to use them. I will make sure my own children are taught, but they will NOT have their own firearms until they are '18 and out of the house'. I was lucky I suppose. I was taught by my Grandfather (WWI US Army vet - suffered injury during a gas attack in Europe) and my Father (WWII US Army vet (European theater and was on his way to the Pacific theater when Japan surrendered) and was still in the military when the Vietnam 'war' ended).

Different situations call for different weapons. My favorite hunting rifle is an '03 Springfield (WWI US Army infantry rifle, bolt-action, 30-06 (the weapon the 30-06 was invented for)). I have nothing against semi-automatics. I used to enjoy shooting a .22 semi-automatic rifle. It had an internal (non-removable) magazine that would hold 18 .22lr (more with .22l and even more with .22s). Good for feral dogs and smaller varmits. A .22lr revolver for shooting mice and rats outdoors and in/around barns using special .22 rat-shot ammo. Home defense using a larger revolver loaded with special 'safety' ammo that wouldn't penetrate walls very much (magsafe, etc.). 12-gauge shotgun for getting rid of poisonous water-moccasin snakes that would climb saplings and sit up in groups at the tops (3 to 5 feet off the ground). Get the whole group (2 to 5 of them) in one shot most of the time.

As Gary used to be fond of saying here, "we don't have a gun control problem here, we have a crazy-control problem". I would add "... crazy and criminal control problem".

The Florida school shooter (Cruz ?) was a crazy. When he turned 18, he legally stopped taking his meds (can't force ANY medical treatment on an adult without having them declared mentally incompetent). That is when his behavior problems starter ballooning. Also, like ALL medical record information, mental health information is protected and confidential by Federal law (HIPPA). Fix those two problems and we will have gone a long way towards solving the problem. Also, stop the revolving door policy in the criminal justice system. Put those that commit and are convicted of violent felonies involving use of weapons in jail for a LONG LONG time. Also both the 'crazy' and the 'criminal' status need to be by law reported to a national database to be checked for ALL background checks.

Why punish the millions and millions of legal, law-abiding gun owners in the USA just to protect us from a relatively few dangerous crazies and violent criminals?

Remember, there are currently about 8 million legally-owned AR15s in the USA (estimates I have seen range between 5 million and 15 million, but the 8 million figure is the one I have seen the most of in the mainstream media), but only 13 mass shootings involving an AR15 in the last 35 years.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/02/14/ar-15-mass-shootings/339519002/

We currently have about 308 million firearms in the USA in the hands of civilians (both legally and illegally). Based on statistics I have seen that is about 270 million legal and 38 million illegal.

Any confiscation of firearms will only touch those legally possessed... not the ones illegally possessed. Even if those that are used in crimes and siezed by the police, that is no guarantee that they will get destroyed. Stuff disappears out of police 'evidence rooms' VERY frequently, especially guns and drugs. And those that DO get destroyed are too easily replaced. We have thousands of miles of coastline and thousands of miles of land borders, that is IF they are not just shipped in mixed in with other freight.

Fully automatic weapons are NOT illegal for civilian citizens in the USA as long as they were manufactured prior to May 19, 1986 AND the owner/possessor holds the required Federal Permit (rather hard to get) AND that person's State of Residence allows it (most States DO). Those manufactured AFTER May 19, 1986 are, by definition, illegal for civilians to own/possess. But a lot of criminals (especially the organized ones) like using the newer small sub-machine-guns. They DON'T get them legally. No Gun Control law will stop that...

A lot of people say that we in the USA should just depend on the Police to 'protect' us. Bullshiat.

The Armed police officer stationed at the Florida high-school didn't enter the building where the shooter was shooting. He stayed outside and hid. The NEXT three to arrive also stayed outside and hid. By the time Police had arrived that WOULD enter the building, the shooter had already ditched the weapon and hid out with the students and left the building with them. HOURS later, the Police caught him at a fookin fast-food outlet eating.

In very rural areas, it can take well over an hour for the police to get to you if you call them. In a number of big cities here in the USA, there are surprisingly large areas where the police WON'T go after dark. A place I was working over 30 years ago got shot up by a bunch of drunk men after a bar in the area closed at 2am. I called the police. The dispatcher HEARD the gunfire over the phone. Was over 4 hours later, after dawn, before the police showed up. Bullet holes everywhere in the walls and doors. I had hidden until they got there. Thank goodness the shooters were drunk as lords, or they might have shot me. As it was, I just got slightly injured by chips of the cinderblocks knocked out by the bullets hitting the wall close behind me. A little bit of bleeding, no serious injury THAT time.

No, we have to defend ourselves all too often... Can't depend on the police.

To all the non-US Citizens out there... Why is this issue so important to you?

Outside of a military action, have you ever been shot? I have. Hurts like a sumbeach. Have you ever been wounded by non-bullet consequences of gunfire? I have. Have you ever been shot AT? I have. If the answer to these three questions is no.... then STFU.
https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.
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Message 1922751 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 18:54:08 UTC - in response to Message 1922744.  

To all the non-US Citizens out there... Why is this issue so important to you?

Perhaps because even non-US Citizens are killed by US Citizens often teenagers that have easy access to guns?
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Message 1922755 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 19:02:27 UTC - in response to Message 1922744.  

Outside of a military action, have you ever been shot? I have. Hurts like a sumbeach. Have you ever been wounded by non-bullet consequences of gunfire? I have. Have you ever been shot AT? I have. If the answer to these three questions is no.... then STFU.
No, No, Yes.
Seen the results of being hit by a high velocity round.
Seen the effects of bombs close up.
None were pleasant to witness.
The problem is too many assume their experiences are unique to them.
Time to wake up, IT IS NOT.
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Message 1922805 - Posted: 4 Mar 2018, 23:31:56 UTC - in response to Message 1922744.  

As Gary used to be fond of saying here, "we don't have a gun control problem here, we have a crazy-control problem". I would add "... crazy and criminal control problem".
We do. And for the reasons you state below and others.
The Florida school shooter (Cruz ?) was a crazy. When he turned 18, he legally stopped taking his meds (can't force ANY medical treatment on an adult without having them declared mentally incompetent). That is when his behavior problems starter ballooning. Also, like ALL medical record information, mental health information is protected and confidential by Federal law (HIPPA). Fix those two problems and we will have gone a long way towards solving the problem. Also, stop the revolving door policy in the criminal justice system. Put those that commit and are convicted of violent felonies involving use of weapons in jail for a LONG LONG time. Also both the 'crazy' and the 'criminal' status need to be by law reported to a national database to be checked for ALL background checks.

I've seen many posts here from a couple of reasonable non-US citizens saying we need to background check purchasers. We do. 100%.

Local news story about a guy who climbed out on a bridge behind a fence. Cops talked him into not jumping. He will be taken to a hospital for a 72 hour hold. Because the USA has no health care, they will find a reason to release him. No money no treatment. But no entry will be made in a database saying he shouldn't be able to buy a gun. Because a judge will never get a case to "declare" him loonie. But do you want someone the cops had to talk down from a bridge going into a gun shop and buying a couple of AR-15's 50 high capacity clips and 1000 rounds of ammunition? That's the gun control problem in the USA!

It isn't that we need new or more gun control laws. We need to be able to enforce the laws that are on the books and keep crazy people away from the gun store.

We currently have about 308 million firearms in the USA in the hands of civilians (both legally and illegally). Based on statistics I have seen that is about 270 million legal and 38 million illegal.

How guns get on the street https://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=81020&postid=1922801
And every sot who buys a gun for protection and then leaves it out of a gun safe when they leave their abode so a burglar can steal it.

Fully automatic weapons are NOT illegal for civilian citizens in the USA as long as they were manufactured prior to May 19, 1986 AND the owner/possessor holds the required Federal Permit (rather hard to get) AND that person's State of Residence allows it (most States DO). Those manufactured AFTER May 19, 1986 are, by definition, illegal for civilians to own/possess. But a lot of criminals (especially the organized ones) like using the newer small sub-machine-guns. They DON'T get them legally. No Gun Control law will stop that...
Nor even 100 years at hard labor if caught. Crooks always think they will get away with their crime and while they do their time they talk to other crooks and find out why they got caught so they don't make that mistake when they get out. And that's the other problem with the USA, we don't rehabilitate, we just cage and release.
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Message 1922812 - Posted: 5 Mar 2018, 0:17:41 UTC

we have a crazy-control problem


Then why not have a proper application process that requires a mental health assessment paid for by the applicant for each weapon purchased?
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Message boards : Politics : Another example of USA Gun Laws (or lack of...)?


 
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