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Message 1733339 - Posted: 10 Oct 2015, 4:52:45 UTC
Last modified: 10 Oct 2015, 4:58:33 UTC

Is this joke racist ?

Asian Pregnancy Test: The woman inserts a small Rubik's Cube into her vagina. If it comes out solved, she's pregnant.

Ok, it specifically mentions Asians, but it also infers that Asian people are so intelligent they can solve a Rubik's Cube even while in-utero.

Therefore it is a compliment to Asian people.

Racism is usually associated with hate and slander.

Anyone care to comment ?

T.A.
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Message 1733343 - Posted: 10 Oct 2015, 5:07:00 UTC

I will sit on the fence and say that context is everything. (She who sits on the fence HAS made a decision!!!)

If a smaller cultural group has a reasonable amount of power/success within a larger cultural group, and a joke is not outright inflammatory, then I do not think that it is necessarily inappropriate to find humor in a joke such as the one you posted. I will even be so bold as to admit that I laughed. Children of an Asian persuasion were robustly represented in all of the advanced math and science courses that I took in junior high and high school (late 1970's - early 1980's)

If a smaller cultural group has a limited amount of power/success within a larger cultural group, then jokes of any sort, complimentary or otherwise, could be construed as racist.

That being said, "Asian" is a very broad term that includes many cultural groups, including people from the Indian subcontinent. So I suppose that the very use of the term Asian might be construed as racist.

Also, who is telling the joke and in what context is the joke being told?

Context, context, context.

Gosh, the view is great from up here on top of the fence!!!
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Message 1733347 - Posted: 10 Oct 2015, 5:17:49 UTC - in response to Message 1733343.  
Last modified: 10 Oct 2015, 5:20:08 UTC

Angela, you have just described the dilemma of the Politically Correct :)

Everything has to be analysed to the nth degree to find something to be "offended" about, usually on behalf of a 3rd party who doesn't care a jot about the issue :)

The original joke referred to a Chinese woman, but I thought that might be too ire raising, so I changed it to Asian, and a possible PC error was still found.

The way things are going, the use of language will be so restricted we'll be back to communicating only by grunts and gestures.

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Message 1733349 - Posted: 10 Oct 2015, 5:31:41 UTC

Analyzed to the nth degree? Whaaat?
Disagree.
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Message 1733353 - Posted: 10 Oct 2015, 5:37:55 UTC - in response to Message 1733349.  
Last modified: 10 Oct 2015, 5:39:08 UTC

Analyzed to the nth degree? Whaaat?
Disagree.

Then state why

Do you prefer the term "Analysed six ways from Sunday" ?

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Message 1733358 - Posted: 10 Oct 2015, 5:48:36 UTC - in response to Message 1733353.  
Last modified: 10 Oct 2015, 5:49:33 UTC

Analyzed to the nth degree? Whaaat?
Disagree.

Then state why

Do you prefer the term "Analysed six ways from Sunday" ?

T.A.


Actually, I'd prefer if you understood what I was saying in some other "recent" posts, such as in the massacre thread. That you'd read and think deeper and not assume you knew on the first or second read precisely what I was saying.

But, on this one, I believe the bad reactions are generally due to gut reactions, not analysis. Further, that to say, in essence "the ones it supposedly insults don't care a jot" probably does not cover everyone it supposedly insults. Few Asians post here, so far as I know. I haven't seen Orgil post in quite some time. And even if he said he was or was not insulted wouldn't tell us much of anything.

Does the fact that I have been able to solve the cube since 1982 make me Asian?

Why is it I have had Asian students in both higher level classes I teach as well as remedial (a.k.a. developmental ones)? To respond to something Clyde has brought up elsewhere, why is it that two black students in one of my current classes have some of the best averages with no extra help from me?

I try to not assume a darned thing when it comes to race. (And that includes what will or won't be considered offensive.)

Last: I call people from India Indians because I've met a good handful of Indians and once I did, it makes no sense to call Native Americans (or First Peoples as Gary says) Indians.
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Message 1733361 - Posted: 10 Oct 2015, 5:57:28 UTC

Angela, you have just described the dilemma of the Politically Correct :)

Everything has to be analysed to the nth degree to find something to be "offended" about, usually on behalf of a 3rd party who doesn't care a jot about the issue :) ...


I prefer not to call political correctness a "dilemma", but rather a "gift". I certainly HOPE that before I tell a joke, I have the good sense to analyze it to the nth degree and then either tell that joke or not, based on the results of my thorough and extensive analysis.

Why would this be a dilemma???

I believe that the old fashioned terms for such a process might be "good taste" or "good manners".

Let us hope that such things never go completely out of style.
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Message 1733368 - Posted: 10 Oct 2015, 8:04:11 UTC
Last modified: 10 Oct 2015, 8:10:42 UTC

@ Sarge
Actually, I'd prefer if you understood what I was saying in some other "recent" posts, such as in the massacre thread. That you'd read and think deeper and not assume you knew on the first or second read precisely what I was saying.

As I haven't been following those threads, I have no idea what you're talking about :(

Never assume anything !!

@ Angela
I prefer not to call political correctness a "dilemma", but rather a "gift"

And that is the problem ! People with "gifts" tend to regard themselves as above us "mere mortals", and like all Prophets, Clairvoyants and other "Gifted People", the "PC Aware" demand that their prognostications are to be taken as the only "True Path".

Of course "Good manners and good taste" come into it, but just because something has a bit of a "tang" in it does not necessarily mean it is bad taste, rude or racist.

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Message 1733384 - Posted: 10 Oct 2015, 9:56:26 UTC

The joke employs a bunch of stereotypes about Asians, so yes, its racist. It doesn't matter if the stereotypes are regarded as positive ones.

Racism is not just the belief that some races are 'inferior' to another race, its just as much the belief that some races are 'superior' to other races.

For future reference, any joke, comment, statement, idea or belief that employs racial stereotypes of any kind, or makes sweeping generalizations of an entire race, its racist.
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Message 1733387 - Posted: 10 Oct 2015, 10:24:56 UTC - in response to Message 1733384.  
Last modified: 10 Oct 2015, 10:27:07 UTC

The joke employs a bunch of stereotypes about Asians, so yes, its racist. It doesn't matter if the stereotypes are regarded as positive ones.

Racism is not just the belief that some races are 'inferior' to another race, its just as much the belief that some races are 'superior' to other races.

For future reference, any joke, comment, statement, idea or belief that employs racial stereotypes of any kind, or makes sweeping generalizations of an entire race, its racist.

Oh Great Seer Of The Way. See my reply above to Angela.

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Message 1733391 - Posted: 10 Oct 2015, 11:14:15 UTC - in response to Message 1733384.  
Last modified: 10 Oct 2015, 11:17:27 UTC

...For future reference, any joke, comment, statement, idea or belief that employs racial stereotypes of any kind, or makes sweeping generalizations of an entire race, its racist.

Мишель. The problem with hard definitions like that, is that it presupposes the the people they are "protecting" are as humourless, out of touch with reality and delicate as those doing the defining.

Two examples.
In Australia there is a very (in)famous radio skit from the early 1990's, where the announcer mimics the accent of an Indian call centre operator.
In the days before Youtube and Facebook I went looking for a copy of it on line. I finally found it on a web site for expatriate Indians living in Sydney (Australia). In the comments section, there was not one negative comment, everyone who had bothered to comment thought it was hilarious.
When I found again on Youtube, 18 months ago, The comments section was full of people claiming how racist it was. Funny thing was not one of the complainers had an Indian name, they were all Anglo in origin. Wouldn't it would be fair to say, that if Indian people had found this skit offensive, they would have let their feelings be known ?

2) It is considered very racist to refer to an Indigenous Australian as a "Blackfella"

A friend of mine, fresh up from Melbourne, was working with the locals on an Indigenous Community. After being referred to as a "Whitefella" a few times, he asked the men he was working with if they objected being called "Blackfellas"

They looked at him, looked at their arms, looked at each other, then shrugged their shoulders, and raised their eyebrows as if to say, "What else would you call us ?"

My point is that definitions such as yours, are made up by people trying to prove how "unprejudiced" they are, to make them look big in front of their peers, rather than any genuine concern for the feelings of others.

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Message 1733393 - Posted: 10 Oct 2015, 12:32:28 UTC - in response to Message 1733391.  
Last modified: 10 Oct 2015, 12:35:46 UTC

Oh Great Seer Of The Way. See my reply above to Angela.

T.A.

You asked a question, I answered. The definition of racism simply includes also the use of positive stereotypes of a certain race. You can google it if you don't believe me.

Мишель. The problem with hard definitions like that, is that it presupposes the the people they are "protecting" are as humourless, out of touch with reality and delicate as those doing the defining.

I never actually commented on whether I thought your joke was funny or not. Again, you simply asked whether the joke is racist, and under the common definition of racism, the answer would be yes.

If Asians can laugh about jokes of putting rubic cubes up their vagina's, good for them, but it doesn't change the fact that you are stereotyping an entire race.

Two examples.
In Australia there is a very (in)famous radio skit from the early 1990's, where the announcer mimics the accent of an Indian call centre operator.
In the days before Youtube and Facebook I went looking for a copy of it on line. I finally found it on a web site for expatriate Indians living in Sydney (Australia). In the comments section, there was not one negative comment, everyone who had bothered to comment thought it was hilarious.
When I found again on Youtube, 18 months ago, The comments section was full of people claiming how racist it was. Funny thing was not one of the complainers had an Indian name, they were all Anglo in origin. Wouldn't it would be fair to say, that if Indian people had found this skit offensive, they would have let their feelings be known ?

You are confusing 'racism' with 'being offended'. Something isn't racist only if it offends people of the race its stereotyping. Racism doesn't stop being racist if it makes people laugh. Nowhere in the definition of racism does it say that its no longer racism if people laugh about it.

My point is that definitions such as yours, are made up by people trying to prove how "unprejudiced" they are, to make them look big in front of their peers, rather than any genuine concern for the feelings of others.

T.A.

Well two things here. First, no, this is a pretty neutral definition. It just shows that racism doesn't necessarily mean that something has to be crudely offensive towards a certain race, like suggesting that people of a certain race are all stupid, eat children, rape women, etc (although in the case of your joke, I'm pretty sure there are quite a few women who find the notion of putting puzzles in their vagina rather crude). Again, it can also be about attributing positive traits to people on the basis of their race. In case of Asians its that they are smart and good at math, with Jews its that they are good with money, and for White supremacists it means that the white race is simply the superior race (although they never bother to define in what way they are supposedly superior). Employing those stereotypes is racist, even if you don't actually offend anyone with it.

Second, 'humor' is not a very good defense. Essentially your entire definition of racism depends on whether people laugh about your joke. In particular, if people of the race you are joking/talking about can laugh about it. But tell me, how many Asian women are in the room when you tell jokes about shoving a rubics cube up their vagina as a way to tell if they are pregnant? And how do you know if they think its genuinely funny or if they are just laughing because everyone else is laughing? Peer pressure is a powerful thing, and if you are part of a minority group you are exposed to this powerful urge to conform to the style of the majority.

Also, humor isn't an uniform idea. What you find hilarious, others find childish or just stupid. So what happens if one Asian lady laughs at your joke and another Asian lady thinks you are racist? Well then the humor defense allows you an easy escape route, namely by accusing the Asian lady that isn't laughing of having no sense of humor. It conveniently allows you to ignore the content of your joke. And if white people aren't laughing, then you have another easy escape route and that is to blame those white people of being 'pc' with the implication that secretly those white people find you hilarious but they are just acting like they hate your joke because they want to suck up to Asians or something.

No, your joke is racist, just own up to it. You wouldn't be the first to laugh at a racist joke, nor will you be the last.
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Message 1733401 - Posted: 10 Oct 2015, 13:55:29 UTC - in response to Message 1733393.  
Last modified: 10 Oct 2015, 14:10:09 UTC

This is where I seriously get confused.
The definitions of racism I was taught in school were

1) An unreasoning hatred of a person or group of people based solely on their race.

2) An unreasoned belief in superiority over a person or group of people based solely on their race.

This I could understand, even minor forms of racism could be traced back to these definitions.

These days, the definition has been stretched so tight, that when it is plucked, the dogs start howling.

Are you seriously telling me that if I say, "People of African descent are better at Athletics." Even though it's a provable fact, I could be accused of and condemned for racism ???

What a load of <words that would quickly earn the moderator's disapproval>, I would dearly love to see someone try it in a face to face situation.

That whole idea is based on a fantasy, we are not all the same grey porridge, and we are NOT all created equal. Some racial groups are better at running, their musculature and metabolism has adapted for it, others, on average are stronger, hairier, hot tempered, calmer and so on. These are FACTS, they can't be denied or hidden under the cover of a claim of racism. Everybody with two eyes can see them as fact.

The same goes for this business about "stereotypes", Just where do you think Stereotypes come from ? E.g. The stereotypical accountant is a shortish man, slim build, going bald and wears rimless glasses. This is a stereotype, but when you have met as many accountants over the years as I have. it's surprisingly accurate.

In Australia at the end of the 1940's we had "The Snowy Mountains Scheme". It was a massive engineering work to, through a series of dams and tunnels, divert a coastal flowing river, back through the Great Dividing Range to irrigate the dry interior.

It was built almost entirely by immigrant workers from war torn Europe. Many of whom had been fighting each other only a few years before.

For it's 30th anniversary a documentary was made on its construction. It included an interview with a former worker.

In answer to the question "What did you do for entertainment ? " He replied

"Oh everyone knew what to do, If you wanted a quiet night, you hung around with the Germans. If you wanted to party, it was the Italians, If you wanted to gamble you went to the Greeks, and if you wanted to fight, you hung around the Croats."

There are many who would argue, (behind closed doors of course) that these "stereotypes" remain true to this day. Anyone who has ever met a Swede, immediately goes "Ha !" when the Swedish Chef comes on TV.

Even you, sitting on the other side of the world, knowing I come from Australia, probably have a view of me that is based on equal parts Crocodile Dundee, Barry McKenzie and Mad Max.

That is the problem with Stereotypes, they are real, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the person, but they are always there.

I remember a few years back there was a woman on TV condemning "Stereotyping". The funny thing was, with, what she was saying, how she was saying it and the way she was dressed was stereotypical for the very people she was defending...

Am I supposed to just turn my head and pretend I don't see ? Or do I call out the people who do so for their dishonesty ?

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Message 1733420 - Posted: 10 Oct 2015, 14:56:45 UTC - in response to Message 1733401.  

This is where I seriously get confused.
The definitions of racism I was taught in school were

1) An unreasoning hatred of a person or group of people based solely on their race.

2) An unreasoned belief in superiority over a person or group of people based solely on their race.

This I could understand, even minor forms of racism could be traced back to these definitions.

Well thats where the positive stereotypes can come in. Asians are better at math, hence you argue for an unreasoned belief that Asians are superior to other races at least in some aspect.

If you want an easier definition of whats racism its simply attributing certain stereotypes, both positive and negative, to people on the basis of their race. It means you define people based on what race they are from, rather than who they are on an individual level.

Are you seriously telling me that if I say, "People of African descent are better at Athletics." Even though it's a provable fact, I could be accused of and condemned for racism ???

Yes. Keep in mind, a lot of these supposedly 'provable facts' aren't really facts or proven and are of the same order as supposed facts about women being naturally this or that. There is not a scientist in the world who would be so stupid as to lump every group of people from Africa on one big pile to make such a statement. We are talking about a giant continent here which contains a lot of different group of people.

What a load of <words that would quickly earn the moderator's disapproval>, I would dearly to see someone try it in a face to face situation.

That whole idea is based on a fantasy, we are not all the same grey porridge, and we are NOT all created equal. Some racial groups are better at running, their musculature and metabolism has adapted for it, others, on average are stronger, hairier, hot tempered, calmer and so on. These are FACTS, they can't be denied or hidden under the cover of a claim of racism. Everybody with two eyes can see them as fact.

Well, again, no scientist would ever be stupid enough to apply such statements to all the people of a giant continent. Yeah, not all people are created equally, so why are you suggesting that all the people of a continent that is well...



big, are created equally?

The same goes for this business about "stereotypes", Just where do you think Stereotypes come from ? E.g. The stereotypical accountant is a shortish man, slim build, going bald and wears rimless glasses. This is a stereotype, but when you have met as many accountants over the years as I have. it's surprisingly accurate.

Right, because 30 year old accountants, who are tall and still have all their hair don't exist at all. You only have to go to business school to see how badly your stereotype of accountants holds up.

The problem with stereotypes is that they reinforce themselves in your mind because you take note of the people that conform to whatever stereotype you have of them, while you forget about all the people that don't fit the picture. Like in the case of accountants. I bet you have met just as many people who are accountants and look nothing like it, and you either never asked them if they were accountants or where you knew but simply forgot about.

There are many who would argue, (behind closed doors of course) that these "stereotypes" remain true to this day. Anyone who has ever met a Swede, immediately goes "Ha !" when the Swedish Chef comes on TV.

Hmm, I have to say I don't recognize Swedish people at all in the Swedish chef stereotype, but that could just be me.

Even you, sitting on the other side of the world, knowing I come from Australia, probably have a view of me that is based on equal parts Crocodile Dundee, Barry McKenzie and Mad Max.

I have no idea who Barry McKenzie, I've never seen Crocodile Dundee and I didn't know Mad Max was Australian until a few months ago. Honestly when it comes to the media informing me of what Australians are like, Master Chef Australia probably has the biggest influence, followed by watching a bit of Skippy the bush Kangaroo when I was 4.

Still though, I'd like to think my image of Australia is more based on what I've learned from talking to a number of actual Australians (the internet is such a wonderful tool for meeting people from all over the world) and my sisters boyfriend who is Australian.

That is the problem with Stereotypes, they are real, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the person, but they are always there.

Look if that was true than the average Australian would be, to a greater or lesser degree, someone who carries a huge knife and who wrestles with crocodiles for sport. That or they would be blonde, bronzed demi gods who spend all their time at the beach chilling and surfing. But I know for a fact that the average Australian is nothing like that at all. You don't wrestle with crocodiles as sport, nor does everyone spend all their time at the beach surfing, plenty of you are overweight and plenty of you are racist xenophobes. Plenty of you are wonderfully kind and intelligent people who look nothing like the racist xenophobes amongst you. Some Australians act like boorish drunken idiots, others don't and are a pleasure to interact with. There is just not one way to describe the average Australian.
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Message 1733458 - Posted: 10 Oct 2015, 16:58:02 UTC - in response to Message 1733420.  

Well thats where the positive stereotypes can come in. Asians are better at math, hence you argue for an unreasoned belief that Asians are superior to other races at least in some aspect.

That is a crap statement. It is not "unreasoned" I have quite good reasons to believe it's true.

So what if Asians are better at math ? Is it a sin ? Does it shatter your belief that all people are at the same flat line of equality in everything ? There are easily spotted differences between individuals why can't there be differences between groups of people ? To deny that possibility is bad science

I do not say that because of "stereotypes", I say that because I've seen Asian engineers in action. VERY smart cookies, they made me feel like I'd just worked how to add 2+2. (That's a deep compliment but probably also racist, sheesh...

If you want an easier definition of whats racism its simply attributing certain stereotypes, both positive and negative, to people on the basis of their race. It means you define people based on what race they are from, rather than who they are on an individual level.

Reverse logic there. It's because you DO take people on the individual level that you start to notice the similarities. A stereotype does mean people are punched out like plastic dolls on a production line. It means that across a group of individuals, there will be certain common characteristics that identify their origin. An Australian does not have the same mindset as an American. You and I share the same genome but we are not identical, you will be naturally better at some things than me and visa versa.

Are you seriously telling me that if I say, "People of African descent are better at Athletics." Even though it's a provable fact, I could be accused of and condemned for racism ???

Yes. Keep in mind, a lot of these supposedly 'provable facts' aren't really facts or proven and are of the same order as supposed facts about women being naturally this or that.

May I suggest you have a look at the results from the recent World Athletics Championships in China. Then we can discuss "provable facts".
And women ARE naturally better than men at many things, and there are things where men have the advantage. But that subject is off topic here !!

Well, again, no scientist would ever be stupid enough to apply such statements to all the people of a giant continent. Yeah, not all people are created equally, so why are you suggesting that all the people of a continent that is well...

Read my post again ! I said African Origin not "People from Africa" !!

People of African Origin represented the USA, The Caribbean, the UK and many other countries

Of course no scientist would make any statement like that, even if it was true. As soon as they opened their mouth people like you would be reaching for the torches and pitchforks !!

Right, because 30 year old accountants, who are tall and still have all their hair don't exist at all. You only have to go to business school to see how badly your stereotype of accountants holds up.

I did say surprisingly accurate, NOT 100% accurate.. I have no doubt 30 year old accountants exist, it's just that I've never met one.

The problem with stereotypes is that they reinforce themselves in your mind because you take note of the people that conform to whatever stereotype you have of them,

Not at all, it's that the older you get, you realise just how many stereotype you've met. You also realise, that to a lot of those people, you were also regarded as one.....

.... Honestly when it comes to the media informing me of what Australians are like, Master Chef Australia probably has the biggest influence....

Oh Please, In heaven's name, DON'T judge us by that !! :D :D

.... That or they would be blonde, bronzed demi gods who spend all their time at the beach chilling and surfing. But I know for a fact that the average Australian is nothing like that at all. You don't wrestle with crocodiles as sport, nor does everyone spend all their time at the beach surfing,

We may not all be bronzed surfers, but even without the accent, you can pick an Aussie, the same for Americans, people from the UK and so on.

...plenty of you are overweight and plenty of you are racist xenophobes. Plenty of you are wonderfully kind and intelligent people who look nothing like the racist xenophobes amongst you. Some Australians act like boorish drunken idiots, others don't and are a pleasure to interact with. There is just not one way to describe the average Australian.

What does a "racist xenophobe" look like compared to a "normal" person ? Some of the worst "racist xenophobes" I've met wore suits and ties and did not have a single tattoo.

Finally. To be unjustifiably called a "Racist" is now an insult. When it comes to the point that someone can be accused of "Racism" for giving someone or a group of people a compliment, it means the system is severely broken and nothing will ever convince me otherwise

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Message 1733522 - Posted: 10 Oct 2015, 22:28:37 UTC

Joke, obviously NSFW, yes, racist as well. Does that mean it can't be told? Not all racism is offensive. (That occasional lack of offense gets people into trouble.)

Racism is today best described as any comment or thought about any characteristic of a group of people or method of sortation into groups. It does seem we are permitted only to sort humans as humans and no finer gradation is permitted. I think that would satisfy the PC police.

BIG NOTE: this does not even say who the speaker/thinker is, so comments about your own group are also racist.
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Message 1733533 - Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 0:16:55 UTC
Last modified: 11 Oct 2015, 0:20:54 UTC

Yes its racist.

Just as saying that all black people play basketball and eat chicken is racist. Playing basketball and eating chicken are not inherently bad, but most people can see that those comments are racist.

If I saw that joke posted somewhere else on these message boards I would delete it as racist.
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Message 1733551 - Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 3:12:56 UTC - in response to Message 1733533.  
Last modified: 11 Oct 2015, 3:18:30 UTC

Yes its racist.

Just as saying that all black people play basketball and eat chicken is racist. Playing basketball and eating chicken are not inherently bad, but most people can see that those comments are racist.

If I saw that joke posted somewhere else on these message boards I would delete it as racist.

Please explain why YOU think it's racist ?

Certainly not all black people play Basketball, but if you look at the NBL team rosters, those that do play, are very good at it.

In Australia, indigenous players in the various sports codes are given much praise for their ability and held up as icons to younger indigenous players.

Under the "Racism Guidelines" posted by Мишель, this is racist. Do you agree ?

Edit: When you block a post due to "racism", do you work to any guidelines, or do you just go by "gut feeling" ?

T.A.
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Message 1733555 - Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 4:00:16 UTC

Upon reading the posts of Мишель and Es99, I now see this joke from a different vantage point. My mind has been changed. The joke is racist.

I suppose now the more interesting question is the one that Gary posted.
Does that mean it can't be told?

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Message boards : Politics : The Racism Quandary


 
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