And how many innocents would then be killed in the crossfire of those armed patrons?

Lynt Café , Lady shot in that was killed by Police in crossfire .

How many patrons would have had a gun with them at the Rock concert ?

Everyone being armed is not Freedom , As the French say Liberty is a better word than Freedom

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Before anyone goes too far off track thinking that everyone should arm themselves so as to protect themselves, family and friends against attacks, maybe you should consider where personal weapons would have helped in the following, very incomplete list, in no particular order.

9/11
USS Cole
Beirut 1983
KGL92678
Lockerby
...

None.

Not the point about a Night Club.

Why did you mention the above, unrelated examples?

Losing the argument?

'Cower in Fear, and Die' is apparently your belief.

Clyde these guys did not cower in fear and they were unarmed.

Police investigate incident near Arras, France, in which three US citizens – two of them soldiers – prevented attack by suspect reportedly armed with AK-47

So is this irrelevant?

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So is this irrelevant?

Why would it be?

Explain.

Your contention is that being armed is "the" answer, I contend there are other answers. One of them is courage.

---

So is this irrelevant?

Why would it be?

Explain.

No, but I have put my money on the most likely scenario and it does not include me being armed.

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Aaron Ybarra, 26 — who allegedly killed Paul Lee, 19, and shot two others before he was pepper-sprayed and tackled by a student building monitor on June 5, 2014

.
Clyde it does happen.

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Of course it happens. But not enough times.

Clyde I'm not quite sure how to read that statement. The way I see it if there were fewer of these attempted murders then the need for heroic action would be less not more times.
As an aside I don't hear much about are armed populace deterring these murders. Is it that the armed heroes are seldom around when these crimes take place?

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The discussion started, was just the belief of you and others. That in these situations:

No attempted defense can work

Clyde that was not my position, don't put words into my mouth, that is very dishonest! In fact I cited 2 examples of unarmed people disarming and subduing the attackers.

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Clyde the natural response is fight or flight. Standing there like a deer in the head lights is not going to end well.

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So you agree, standing there like a deer in the head lights is not going to end well. It's a Darwinian thing.

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Et tu tea party?
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/27/us/colorado-shooting-probe/

---

Et tu tea party?
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/27/us/colorado-shooting-probe/

An Extremist Christian terrorist no doubt.

---

Reality Internet Personality

Et tu tea party?
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/27/us/colorado-shooting-probe/

An Extremist Christian terrorist no doubt.

Really?
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/4835888-181/planned-parenthood-shooter-robert-lewis

His neighbors in Black Mountain said Robert Lewis Dear kept mostly to himself. But James Russell said when Dear did talk, it was a rambling combination of a number of topics that didn’t make sense together and he tended to avoid eye contact.
Two topics Russell said he never heard Dear talk about were religion or abortion.

Et tu tea party?
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/27/us/colorado-shooting-probe/

An Extremist Christian terrorist no doubt.

Really?
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/4835888-181/planned-parenthood-shooter-robert-lewis

His neighbors in Black Mountain said Robert Lewis Dear kept mostly to himself. But James Russell said when Dear did talk, it was a rambling combination of a number of topics that didn’t make sense together and he tended to avoid eye contact.
Two topics Russell said he never heard Dear talk about were religion or abortion.

Unknown, at this time, if he is an Extremist Christian, or even a believer in a God.

But he was Anti-Abortion. Or at least, selling of body parts.

Knee jerk Anti-Christian observations. Without any facts.

Is the same as knee jerk Anti-Muslim, Anti-Jewish, etc.

We know one thing though: Sex - Female!
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/11/court-records-colorado-planned-parenthood-shooter-not-republican-identifies-as-woman/

Radicalized listening to right wing talk radio?

---

Et tu tea party?
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/27/us/colorado-shooting-probe/

An Extremist Christian terrorist no doubt.

Really?
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/4835888-181/planned-parenthood-shooter-robert-lewis

His neighbors in Black Mountain said Robert Lewis Dear kept mostly to himself. But James Russell said when Dear did talk, it was a rambling combination of a number of topics that didn’t make sense together and he tended to avoid eye contact.
Two topics Russell said he never heard Dear talk about were religion or abortion.

Unknown, at this time, if he is an Extremist Christian, or even a believer in a God.

But he was Anti-Abortion. Or at least, selling of body parts.

Knee jerk Anti-Christian observations. Without any facts.

Is the same as knee jerk Anti-Muslim, Anti-Jewish, etc.

Nope, just another 2nd amendment idiot Yankee that you other idiots allow access to firearms as usual. :-(

When will you idiots wake up? (and that's directed at the <30% of you idiots there that are stopping firearms regulations)

Cheers.

Nope, just another 2nd amendment idiot Yankee that you other idiots allow access to firearms as usual. :-(

When will you idiots wake up? (and that's directed at the <30% of you idiots there that are stopping firearms regulations)

Cheers.

Wiggo,

OK, you have a few errors in your statement.

First, the term 'Yankee' refers to a person from the New England area of the USA, NOT a person from the USA in general. Mr. Dear, the accused shooter, is from South Carolina, and lived in North Carolina prior to moving to Colorado.

Use of the term 'Yankee' in referring to a person from the Deep South (as both of the Carolinas are) is a pejorative, an insult, 'fighting words' as it were.

If you must use a pejorative in referring to the accused shooter, try one that has a chance at being correct, such as 'hillbilly' (he did have a cabin up in the mountains of North Carolina).

Second, we DO have sensible gun control laws on the books. Violent Criminals and the Mentally Ill are not legally able to purchase, own, possess, or use firearms. Those laws are already ON THE BOOKS and have been for quite some time.

We don't have a 'gun control' problem in the USA, but we DO have, as has been said here many times, a 'crazy control' problem.

Yes, we do have laws against the mentally ill having guns. But, these laws have been effectively neutered by another law, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA). HIPAA's main sponsor in the US Senate was Senator Ted Kennedy (Democrat - Massachusetts) (now HE was a Yankee), and it was signed into law by President Bill Clinton (Democrat) (a hillbilly from Arkansas). HIPAA essentially requires explicit written permission from the patient to share Protected Health Information with essentially anyone else, (for instance even different locations of the same Hospital system).

Combine HIPAA with the right of a patient to refuse treatment, and a mentally ill person can get up and walk out of a treatment facility and no one will ever know unless/until that person commits a crime and the court issues a subpoena for the person's records (if they can determine which doctor/treatment facility, that is...).

As to your multiple use of the pejorative 'idiot'...

Perhaps we do not wish to become idiots by allowing ourselves to be disarmed, for that way lies oppression.

Wiggo, got a gun? No? You are oppressed.

Deranged Left radio.

There is no such thing, because there is no left radio, all of it is right of center.
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/sep/10/pacifica-leftwing-radio-kpfk-wbai-financial-collapse

---

Et tu tea party?
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/27/us/colorado-shooting-probe/

An Extremist Christian terrorist no doubt.

Really?
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/4835888-181/planned-parenthood-shooter-robert-lewis

His neighbors in Black Mountain said Robert Lewis Dear kept mostly to himself. But James Russell said when Dear did talk, it was a rambling combination of a number of topics that didn’t make sense together and he tended to avoid eye contact.
Two topics Russell said he never heard Dear talk about were religion or abortion.

Yes, really

There is the mark of terror right on his hovel, a cross.

---

Nope, just another 2nd amendment idiot Yankee that you other idiots allow access to firearms as usual. :-(

When will you idiots wake up? (and that's directed at the <30% of you idiots there that are stopping firearms regulations)

Cheers.

Wiggo,

OK, you have a few errors in your statement.

First, the term 'Yankee' refers to a person from the New England area of the USA, NOT a person from the USA in general. Mr. Dear, the accused shooter, is from South Carolina, and lived in North Carolina prior to moving to Colorado.

Use of the term 'Yankee' in referring to a person from the Deep South (as both of the Carolinas are) is a pejorative, an insult, 'fighting words' as it were.

If you must use a pejorative in referring to the accused shooter, try one that has a chance at being correct, such as 'hillbilly' (he did have a cabin up in the mountains of North Carolina).

Second, we DO have sensible gun control laws on the books. Violent Criminals and the Mentally Ill are not legally able to purchase, own, possess, or use firearms. Those laws are already ON THE BOOKS and have been for quite some time.

We don't have a 'gun control' problem in the USA, but we DO have, as has been said here many times, a 'crazy control' problem.

Yes, we do have laws against the mentally ill having guns. But, these laws have been effectively neutered by another law, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA). HIPAA's main sponsor in the US Senate was Senator Ted Kennedy (Democrat - Massachusetts) (now HE was a Yankee), and it was signed into law by President Bill Clinton (Democrat) (a hillbilly from Arkansas). HIPAA essentially requires explicit written permission from the patient to share Protected Health Information with essentially anyone else, (for instance even different locations of the same Hospital system).

Combine HIPAA with the right of a patient to refuse treatment, and a mentally ill person can get up and walk out of a treatment facility and no one will ever know unless/until that person commits a crime and the court issues a subpoena for the person's records (if they can determine which doctor/treatment facility, that is...).

As to your multiple use of the pejorative 'idiot'...

Perhaps we do not wish to become idiots by allowing ourselves to be disarmed, for that way lies oppression.

Wiggo, got a gun? No? You are oppressed.

That maybe how you see the use of the word within the USA Kong, but that's not the way the rest of the world does.

Sadly you do have a gun problem whether you wish to admit it or not (it all depends on whether your eyes are open or closed).

Idiots are just that, idiots.

Yes I do own a long rifle and the all the paperwork to go with it. :-)

Gun control doesn't mean that there's no guns here. In fact living out in the countryside where I do there's more guns than you can poke a stick at just to control feral animals and put stock down when required, but you are required to keep them in a safe when not in use and the police can check anytime they like that you are doing the right thing with them and if you're involved in any sort of violence those firearms are immediately confiscated.

Though over here it's either single shot (single or double barrel) or bolt action rifles. No semiautomatic, lever or pump action firearms are allowed and handguns have never been legal to the general public here at anytime.

Cheers.

Yes, really

There is the mark of terror right on his hovel, a cross.

Nice hovel.
To recognize the cross took me a while.
Naw. This is an act done by a madman.

What I'd like to know is why is it legal to sell fetuses anyway they should be disposed of in a incinerator .

Or is it illegal ?

witch I then have to ask why has not your F.B.I or local law enforcement done something to stop it ?

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