In all years over 80% of those stopped were completely innocent.

20% crooks and undesirables. Not a place to live. Born there but escaped; Washington Heights is a zoo now.

For someone who claims to have taught statistics you exhibit a total lack of understanding statistics.
Over 80% innocent does not equal 20% crooks/undesirables.

"The number of stops increased dramatically in 2008 to over half a million, 88% of which did not result in any fine or conviction, peaking in 2011 to 685,724 stops, again with 88% resulting in no conviction. On average from 2002 to 2013 the number of individuals stopped without any convictions was 87.6%....Wikipedia

Minorities were the ones stopped disproportionately.

the percentage of blacks and Hispanics subjected to stop-and-frisk encounters has declined slightly, but last quarter amounted to 81.5 percent: 51.7 percent of stops were blacks and 29.7 percent were Hispanics.

Showing blatant racism.

The NYPD uncovered contraband in one out every 43 stops of white New Yorkers. By contrast, it took the Department 57 stops of Latinos and 61 stops of African Americans to uncover contraband....https://www.rt.com/usa/stop-frisk-whites-drugs-weapons-667/

__________________________________________________________
The Internet is a conspiracy to out Racists and Bigots at their leisure.

I believe we have a case of a fuzzy definition of the complement of the set in question. This need not reflect on his knowledge of, and ability to teach, statistics. Rather, it reflects on his views on human nature. (Unless you meant "over 80% means less than 20%"?)

Minorities were the ones stopped disproportionately.

Probably the disproportionately is because the police control minority areas more.
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

As I have often repeated, and is true: The Left's solutions to our problems.
Are worse than the problem.

No. It's an Us and Them problem.

Only difference in American Culture over the last 200 years:
Allowing Blacks, Women and Immigrants, to enter the same 200 year Culture of Individual Freedom and Responsibility.

Really?

...

Rape YTD 2015 = 1061 2014 = 996 an increase of 65 individuals

...

Not sure of the details here, but as most rapes are done by someone the victim knows, I am almost certain that guns would not help in these cases.

Also, how would stop and frisk laws prevent rape or murder? I mean, how do you determine after a stop and frisk that someone is on his way to rape or murder someone?

Also, how would stop and frisk laws prevent rape or murder? I mean, how do you determine after a stop and frisk that someone is on his way to rape or murder someone?

I, never stated that stop and frisk would stop rape or murder, Bobby introduced those stats to support his contention that crime had gone down in NYC since the procedure was 'halted'.

The basic point of the discussion on stop and frisk was it's effectiveness in removing illegally possessed firearms from the street. NYC is the only place I know of where the tactic was acknowledged as a policy(there may be others that I'm unaware of).

---

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

The basic point of the discussion on stop and frisk was it's effectiveness in removing illegally possessed firearms from the street. NYC is the only place I know of where the tactic was acknowledged as a policy(there may be others that I'm unaware of).

You mean like we do in Europe?
Russian and Balkan states aside:)

Back on topic and to stir the pot.

A popular speculation among many people is that a good idea is a mandated "Background Check" prior to being allowed to purchase or acquire a gun. This may be the most likely ( perhaps not overwhelmingly likely) thing to be passed into law.

Here are some items for contemplation in this notion that has admittedly less than total impact.

Who will keep the "No Gun" registry.
What will be the criteria for getting on this list.
Who will be required to post to this list.
Will there be appeals to be removed from the list.
Will a license be issued to buy a gun.

For someone who claims to have taught statistics you exhibit a total lack of understanding statistics.
Over 80% innocent does not equal 20% crooks/undesirables.

Perhaps I should have made the premise clear that if you are not "innocent" then you are "undesirable"

This is not Quantum Mechanics. In our world: If there are only two mutually exclusive sets "A" and "B", if you are not in set A then you must be in set B.

Do you know enough formal Logic to show that this is or is not an invalid argument ? I claim that it is a valid argument and also that it is a sound argument--what do you all say ??

I do question the original numbers and what they actually mean if that is any consolation to your objection.

This is why most outside this Culture, and many inside this Culture, have no understanding regarding the American Culture of a Gun Ownership, or this Culture's 2nd Amendment.

There is so many other countries then the US that also have Culture of Gun Ownership.
Hunting season has started here.


http://www.leifgwpersson.se/forfattaren.html

Our Guns are, in part, for killing other Humans (hopefully in self-defense), and defending against Tyranny.

Same in your Culture?

Edit: As I said. We are speaking from Different Cultural perspectives.
'Gun Culture' to you means Hunting.
'Gun Culture' in America. Has a broader meaning.

'Gun Culture' in both Europe and the US is very much the same.
However we dont have weapons so much in cities and definitivly not concealed.
Here it's a criminal act to do that.

However we dont have weapons so much in cities and definitivly not concealed.
Here it's a criminal act to do that.

Why? Is it due to the premise that someone concealing a firearm has criminal intent?

Jan, you asked earlier why CCW? The reason primarily is due to the unease the less educated (firearms wise) feel when in the presence of someone openly armed. One reason I obtained my CCW permit was for the ability to carry a firearm while fishing for personal protection. This is a requirement for carry in a National Park whether openly or concealed.

So in my opinion the reason for concealment is to avoid unnecessarily alarming others you meet.

---

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

However we dont have weapons so much in cities and definitivly not concealed.
Here it's a criminal act to do that.

Why? Is it due to the premise that someone concealing a firearm has criminal intent?

Jan, you asked earlier why CCW? The reason primarily is due to the unease the less educated (firearms wise) feel when in the presence of someone openly armed. One reason I obtained my CCW permit was for the ability to carry a firearm while fishing for personal protection. This is a requirement for carry in a National Park whether openly or concealed.

So in my opinion the reason for concealment is to avoid unnecessarily alarming others you meet.

Why would you conceal a firearm if it's only for you own protection?
But AFIK the only here that have firarms are the military, police and the bad guys.
Oh. Forgot my brother who was convicted of illegal possession of maze.''

carry a firearm while fishing for personal protection

Are you fishing sharks or something?
LOL.

I forgot farmers with cattles.
Sometimes you need to kill cows that are hurt with a gun.
Been there...

Why would you conceal a firearm if it's only for you own protection?

[sigh]"in my opinion the reason for concealment is to avoid unnecessarily alarming others you meet."
It saves a lot of problems when some alarmed 'concerned citizen' reports to the authorities "there's a man with a gun on the shore!" Police come, waste their time and taxpayer resources, verifying I have a legal right to possess and am not a danger to myself or the public. If the 'concerned citizen' sees no weapon when encountered this whole 'fire drill' does not occur.

Are you fishing sharks or something?
LOL.

Ever encountered a pi$$ed off mother bear with cubs face to face? Most times confrontation can be avoided peacefully, but in the rare occasion it can't it's better to be prepared than not.

I don't shoot cattle.

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"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

Ever encountered a pi$$ed off mother bear with cubs face to face? Most times confrontation can be avoided peacefully, but in the rare occasion it can't it's better to be prepared than not.
I don't shoot cattle.

I don't want to fish in bear territory.
Thats very dangerous.
Two persons have been killed in bear attacks in our country the last 100 years.
Both had rifles!

Diana was the name of the cow that had to be shot because she broke her hip when I led her to the pasture:(

In all years over 80% of those stopped were completely innocent.

Conversely then, 20% were not 'completely innocent'.

Umm, no, as others have already noted 100 - (>80) is not 20. (In 2014 the >80% was 82, in 2013 is was 88, in 2012 89, etc.). While you might believe that 5,000,000 innocents (out of a population less than twice that number) being stopped and frisked over a period of less than 14 years to be a price worth paying, there are some that find it objectionable.

In 2014, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 46,235 times.

x20% = 9,247 stops that turned up a problem. I can go on with 2013, 12, 11, I won't.

Clearly the substantial drop in its use happened before DeBlasio became mayor.

Because they were effective!

I see, because stop and frisk worked its use was reduced by the previous administration, though when the current administration further reduced its use, crime and shooting increased.

If you want to move the goalposts from "crime" to "violent crime", that's fine, though don't assume I will not notice it happening.

No one has 'moved a goalpost' this thread is titled another Mass Shooting in the USA. That would be a 'violent' crime, you were the one to introduce stats on non-violent crime to compensate for the increase in violent crime in NYC.

As previously stated, the stats were introduced in response to your "crime and shooting" comment. Apologies that I did not realize that in your comment you meant violent crime. The data I supplied was not intended to compensate for anything, it was merely to show that the effectiveness of stop and frisk is not as clear as some of the claims suggest.

It could be argued that stop and frisk has little to do with the increase in murders, as other US cities have seen rises in such crimes this year

It could also be argued that a duck is a locomotive, exactly WHICH of these cities have an instituted Stop and Frisk policy?

I have no idea which cities have instituted a stop and frisk policy, though, to my knowledge, nowhere was its use as common as it was a few years ago in NYC. While you may care to argue a duck is a locomotive, it may not be very productive, on the other hand, noting that there has been a fairly widespread increase in the number of murders in cities across the US this year, might lead one to question whether the specific increase in NYC is the result of a reduction of stop and frisks or whether some other factors may be involved.

We were discussing NYC not St Louis, or Baltimore. But since you insist in Red Herrings

You might have been discussing NYC, I thought we were discussing the effectiveness of stop and frisk at reducing crime, thus crime data from other US cities are not necessarily red herrings.

it is interesting that in your source,http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/01/us/murder-rates-rising-sharply-in-many-us-cities.html?_r=0, the body count(not percentages) was the greatest in the two cities with the strictest gun control laws[edit](that is control of LEGALLY OWNED guns)[/edit] (which IS the topic of this thread), Chicago 294 and NYC 208, so far.

That might be interesting if it were true. Last time I checked 215 (Baltimore, population <700,000) was greater than 208 (NYC, population > 8,000,000). No doubt you will show I am as wrong in this regard as I am on other matters. Likewise, I'm probably wrong to think a person is less likely to be murdered in NYC than Baltimore.

I apologize for insinuating you felt you were safe in the arms of the Mayor, and you do have the right to believe anything you wish.

If you're going to apologize, please apologize for the thing you did, not what you'd like to characterize is as. You did not insinuate (suggest or hint), you asserted. Oh, and it wasn't my beliefs that were questioned in my last post, it was yours (Why do you believe I have an "idyllic view of life"). The question remains unanswered.

I also find it strange to be the one defending Stop and Frisk.

Why not stop?

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Also, how would stop and frisk laws prevent rape or murder? I mean, how do you determine after a stop and frisk that someone is on his way to rape or murder someone?

I, never stated that stop and frisk would stop rape or murder, Bobby introduced those stats to support his contention that crime had gone down in NYC since the procedure was 'halted'.

No, I introduced the stats to counter your claim that crime and shooting had increased under the current Mayor as a result of the reduction in use of stop and frisk since he took office.

The basic point of the discussion on stop and frisk was it's effectiveness in removing illegally possessed firearms from the street. NYC is the only place I know of where the tactic was acknowledged as a policy(there may be others that I'm unaware of).

Odd, I missed that part of the discussion. Do you have any data that shows the policy's effectiveness in this regard?

---

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Our Guns are, in part, for killing other Humans (hopefully in self-defense), and defending against Tyranny.
Same in your Culture?
Edit: As I said. We are speaking from Different Cultural perspectives.
'Gun Culture' to you means Hunting.
'Gun Culture' in America. Has a broader meaning.

'Gun Culture' in both Europe and the US is very much the same.
However we dont have weapons so much in cities and definitivly not concealed.
Here it's a criminal act to do that.

Different Culture. As I said.
http://legallyarmed.com/ccw_statistics.htm
Here in Florida 1,405,375 Active CCW permits. Including Myself, Wife, Adult Children and their Spouses.
This doesn't include In Home or Car. Where NO Permit is required.

Janne...
Same as your Country?
Edit: The Gun Culture, in The USA means: 'Armed To The Teeth'.
Not saying its positive or negative. Just a Different Culture.

I guess we also are 'Armed To The Teeth' :)
About the same as in Florida.

With two million registered firearms, Sweden is one of the world's weapons densest countries.
There are around 630,000 legal civilian gun owners in Sweden with licenses for two million weapons and weapons parts.
Sweden has about 10 million inhabitants, about as many as live in New York City.

Finland has about the same density.
My GF's ex bought an illegal gun just for fun.

Not referencing In Home nor Hunting.
How many in your Country are Armed with a Concealed Weapon in Public. Or as in Texas - 'Open Carry' Alowed?
How may have a handgun, in their car, in your Country? Is it legal?

Concealed Weapon in Public is rather difficult to know.
Hopefully not so many.

If you are licensed weapon owner it's legal to have weapons in a car.
Handguns however are usually illegal and if stopped by the police they probably ask many questions.

Also walking around with a knife is not a such good idea.

Not referencing In Home nor Hunting.
How many in your Country are Armed with a Concealed Weapon in Public. Or as in Texas - 'Open Carry' Alowed?
How may have a handgun, in their car, in your Country? Is it legal?

Concealed Weapon in Public is rather difficult to know.
Hopefully not so many.
If you are licensed weapon owner it's legal to have weapons in a car.
Handguns however are usually illegal and if stopped by the police they probably ask many questions.

Some Government Agency doesn't have the Licensing/Permit numbers?
Don't need, in Florida, a Government's Permission, to have a handgun in your car.
However, if stopped by the Cops: Please tell them FIRST, for your safety.

Here it's the police that issues licenses.
If you have a gun without a license, concealed or in the open, you will be convicted of illegal posession.
My brother was one:)