[quote]What is nothing.

There is no such thing as nothing.

---

Dave Nelson

I read the link.
The second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems.
It's very hard to find closed systems in our universe.
Some even belive that our universe is part of a multiverse.
The WMAP image suggest that there is a birth mark on it from the time our universe was connected to an other universe.

Related data? The 2nd law would probably rule even without universal expansion. But the expansion makes the disorder from order faster.

"I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ..." :)

If you still believe that life violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics then I can only conclude that we have different ideas of what that law states.

How can we have different ideas of what that law states?
I know that the 2nd law will win in the end eventually.
I think it's very strange though that we can discuss it and even come to some conclusions.

Strange indeed, though you appear to suggest that life has some means to delay the onset of increasing entropy, there is nothing in the 2nd law as I understand it that permits a delaying mechanism to exist. Thus we have a different idea of what the law states.

To me life seems to be a steady state and not increasing entropy.
Given that it will be a delay on the onset of increasing entropy over time.

[quote]What is nothing.
There is no such thing as nothing.

Then the Big Bang never happened.
Well there are many scientist today that question that theory.

I believe that there is no such as nothing because I am unable to visualize nothing. Are you?

---

Dave Nelson

I read the link.
The second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems.
It's very hard to find closed systems in our universe.
Some even belive that our universe is part of a multiverse.
The WMAP image suggest that there is a birth mark on it from the time our universe was connected to an other universe.

Related data? The 2nd law would probably rule even without universal expansion. But the expansion makes the disorder from order faster.

"I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ..." :)

If you still believe that life violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics then I can only conclude that we have different ideas of what that law states.

How can we have different ideas of what that law states?
I know that the 2nd law will win in the end eventually.
I think it's very strange though that we can discuss it and even come to some conclusions.

Strange indeed, though you appear to suggest that life has some means to delay the onset of increasing entropy, there is nothing in the 2nd law as I understand it that permits a delaying mechanism to exist. Thus we have a different idea of what the law states.

Could it be that atoms organizing into a life form, and then our attempts to organize our lives into schedules and tidy homes are what he thinks delays entropy? Could it be that our efforts simply speed up entropy elsewhere in the universe? In other words, is there a rate at which entropy is supposed to occur? Is it a constant or an average? If it is an average, then increasing organization in one locality would lead to decreasing organization in another neighborhood. Maybe?

Could it be that atoms organizing into a life form, and then our attempts to organize our lives into schedules and tidy homes are what he thinks delays entropy? Could it be that our efforts simply speed up entropy elsewhere in the universe? In other words, is there a rate at which entropy is supposed to occur? Is it a constant or an average? If it is an average, then increasing organization in one locality would lead to decreasing organization in another neighborhood. Maybe?

That actually makes cents .

4 mass extinction since Earth was formed ?

Is our time coming to a end , the great experiment of intelligence ??

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I believe that there is no such as nothing because I am unable to visualize nothing. Are you?

I can't visualize nothing. Nor God.
The same goes for a singularity and the quantum world.
Funny though that you can discuss those very abstract concepts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing

I read the link.
The second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems.
It's very hard to find closed systems in our universe.
Some even belive that our universe is part of a multiverse.
The WMAP image suggest that there is a birth mark on it from the time our universe was connected to an other universe.

Related data? The 2nd law would probably rule even without universal expansion. But the expansion makes the disorder from order faster.

"I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ..." :)

If you still believe that life violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics then I can only conclude that we have different ideas of what that law states.

How can we have different ideas of what that law states?
I know that the 2nd law will win in the end eventually.
I think it's very strange though that we can discuss it and even come to some conclusions.

Strange indeed, though you appear to suggest that life has some means to delay the onset of increasing entropy, there is nothing in the 2nd law as I understand it that permits a delaying mechanism to exist. Thus we have a different idea of what the law states.

Could it be that atoms organizing into a life form, and then our attempts to organize our lives into schedules and tidy homes are what he thinks delays entropy? Could it be that our efforts simply speed up entropy elsewhere in the universe? In other words, is there a rate at which entropy is supposed to occur? Is it a constant or an average? If it is an average, then increasing organization in one locality would lead to decreasing organization in another neighborhood. Maybe?

That's what the link I provided earlier was intended to show. I was told the linked page was read and afterwards the "life violates the 2nd law" claim remained.

---

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Could it be that atoms organizing into a life form, and then our attempts to organize our lives into schedules and tidy homes are what he thinks delays entropy? Could it be that our efforts simply speed up entropy elsewhere in the universe? In other words, is there a rate at which entropy is supposed to occur? Is it a constant or an average? If it is an average, then increasing organization in one locality would lead to decreasing organization in another neighborhood. Maybe?

That's what the link I provided earlier was intended to show. I was told the linked page was read and afterwards the "life violates the 2nd law" claim remained.

My "claim" was only that there is a LOCAL decrease in entropy when it comes to life — while at the same time the TOTAL entropy increases.
Is there some other physical laws that behave in the same manner?
Gravity? Don't think so.

I read the link.
The second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems.
It's very hard to find closed systems in our universe.
Some even belive that our universe is part of a multiverse.
The WMAP image suggest that there is a birth mark on it from the time our universe was connected to an other universe.

Related data? The 2nd law would probably rule even without universal expansion. But the expansion makes the disorder from order faster.

"I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ..." :)

If you still believe that life violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics then I can only conclude that we have different ideas of what that law states.

How can we have different ideas of what that law states?
I know that the 2nd law will win in the end eventually.
I think it's very strange though that we can discuss it and even come to some conclusions.

Strange indeed, though you appear to suggest that life has some means to delay the onset of increasing entropy, there is nothing in the 2nd law as I understand it that permits a delaying mechanism to exist. Thus we have a different idea of what the law states.

Could it be that atoms organizing into a life form, and then our attempts to organize our lives into schedules and tidy homes are what he thinks delays entropy? Could it be that our efforts simply speed up entropy elsewhere in the universe? In other words, is there a rate at which entropy is supposed to occur? Is it a constant or an average? If it is an average, then increasing organization in one locality would lead to decreasing organization in another neighborhood. Maybe?

That's what the link I provided earlier was intended to show. I was told the linked page was read and afterwards the "life violates the 2nd law" claim remained.

In the meantime, I didn't read the link.
One might be surprised at how little science I had to take at the Bachelor's degree level.
So, since it's been so many years since I had Physics, I could only look at it mathematically and then ask "is there a rate and, if so, a constant or an average?"

Could it be that atoms organizing into a life form, and then our attempts to organize our lives into schedules and tidy homes are what he thinks delays entropy? Could it be that our efforts simply speed up entropy elsewhere in the universe? In other words, is there a rate at which entropy is supposed to occur? Is it a constant or an average? If it is an average, then increasing organization in one locality would lead to decreasing organization in another neighborhood. Maybe?

That's what the link I provided earlier was intended to show. I was told the linked page was read and afterwards the "life violates the 2nd law" claim remained.

My "claim" was only that there is a LOCAL decrease in entropy when it comes to life — while at the same time the TOTAL entropy increases.
Is there some other physical laws that behave in the same manner?
Gravity? Don't think so.

My attempts to decrease my own entropy might be sapping the life from a 90 year old in Japan, or a walrus?

Could it be that atoms organizing into a life form, and then our attempts to organize our lives into schedules and tidy homes are what he thinks delays entropy? Could it be that our efforts simply speed up entropy elsewhere in the universe? In other words, is there a rate at which entropy is supposed to occur? Is it a constant or an average? If it is an average, then increasing organization in one locality would lead to decreasing organization in another neighborhood. Maybe?

That's what the link I provided earlier was intended to show. I was told the linked page was read and afterwards the "life violates the 2nd law" claim remained.

My "claim" was only that there is a LOCAL decrease in entropy when it comes to life — while at the same time the TOTAL entropy increases.
Is there some other physical laws that behave in the same manner?
Gravity? Don't think so.

I think entropy is being misunderstood. Life is chemistry at its basic core. I remember something about ATP back a long time ago in school.

When you sweep the floor, you get hot, so while the dust gets removed lowering disorder, you being hot increases disorder. All of life works that way.

---

In the meantime, I didn't read the link.
One might be surprised at how little science I had to take at the Bachelor's degree level.
So, since it's been so many years since I had Physics, I could only look at it mathematically and then ask "is there a rate and, if so, a constant or an average?"

You did statistics though. Entropy is a statistical calculation, so like any statistical calculation there can be apparent regions of order while the disorder of the entire system is increasing.

---

Reality Internet Personality

In the meantime, I didn't read the link.
One might be surprised at how little science I had to take at the Bachelor's degree level.
So, since it's been so many years since I had Physics, I could only look at it mathematically and then ask "is there a rate and, if so, a constant or an average?"

You did statistics though. Entropy is a statistical calculation, so like any statistical calculation there can be apparent regions of order while the disorder of the entire system is increasing.

In the end, yes, quite a bit of Stats, learning it and teaching it.
So, is there an average rate?

And can someone please remind me how this fits in to the thread topic?

In the meantime, I didn't read the link.
One might be surprised at how little science I had to take at the Bachelor's degree level.
So, since it's been so many years since I had Physics, I could only look at it mathematically and then ask "is there a rate and, if so, a constant or an average?"

You did statistics though. Entropy is a statistical calculation, so like any statistical calculation there can be apparent regions of order while the disorder of the entire system is increasing.

In the end, yes, quite a bit of Stats, learning it and teaching it.
So, is there an average rate?

Off the top of my head, the entropy of a system is calculated by the formula S= KBln(Omega). S (or entropy) is the number of possible ways the states of a system can be arranged and Omega is the number of states. KB is Boltzmann's constant. So you are just working out all the probable ways a system can be arranged. The more disorder, the more different arrangements there are. It is basically a statistical analysis of the probability of any one state being possible.

And can someone please remind me how this fits in to the thread topic?

Someone trotted out the old Intelligent Design argument about life breaking the law of Entropy thus proving the existence of a Designer.

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Reality Internet Personality

My attempts to decrease my own entropy might be sapping the life from a 90 year old in Japan, or a walrus?

Well, in our attempts to contain entropy we have been quite damaging to the environment. In a way, yes, your efforts to decrease your own entropy has probably sped up the entropy of something else.

In the meantime, I didn't read the link.
One might be surprised at how little science I had to take at the Bachelor's degree level.
So, since it's been so many years since I had Physics, I could only look at it mathematically and then ask "is there a rate and, if so, a constant or an average?"

You did statistics though. Entropy is a statistical calculation, so like any statistical calculation there can be apparent regions of order while the disorder of the entire system is increasing.

In the end, yes, quite a bit of Stats, learning it and teaching it.
So, is there an average rate?

Off the top of my head, the entropy of a system is calculated by the formula S= KBln(Omega). S (or entropy) is the number of possible ways the states of a system can be arranged and Omega is the number of states. KB is Boltzmann's constant. So you are just working out all the probable ways a system can be arranged. The more disorder, the more different arrangements there are. It is basically a statistical analysis of the probability of any one state being possible.

And can someone please remind me how this fits in to the thread topic?

Someone trotted out the old Intelligent Design argument about life breaking the law of Entropy thus proving the existence of a Designer.

Thought that might be it.

Returning to the above, so, what about John Nash's "zero sum"? Does that play into any of this?

I have a question for the believers. Is God a NY Mets fan or a KC Royals fan? During the recent league championship baseball series on numerous occasions I saw a player making the sign of praising God after throwing a strike for the last out of an inning, and a player making the same gesture after swinging his bat and hitting a homerun and they were on different teams. You can substitute your own favorite game and players and the scene is essentially the same. Players thanking God for their success of the moment. In most cases I believe the player was sincere in his/her belief that God gave him/her the advantage. So, just whose side is God on. This can also be found in warfare, both sides thinking God is on their side to the point of sanctioning the killing and carnage. These are primitive actions and yet they persist here and now in the 21st century. When are people going to wake up and realise that a real God would not show such favoritism.

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Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

I have a question for the believers. Is God a NY Mets fan or a KC Royals fan? During the recent league championship baseball series on numerous occasions I saw a player making the sign of praising God after throwing a strike for the last out of an inning, and a player making the same gesture after swinging his bat and hitting a homerun and they were on different teams. You can substitute your own favorite game and players and the scene is essentially the same. Players thanking God for their success of the moment. In most cases I believe the player was sincere in his/her belief that God gave him/her the advantage. So, just whose side is God on. This can also be found in warfare, both sides thinking God is on their side to the point of sanctioning the killing and carnage. These are primitive actions and yet they persist here and now in the 21st century. When are people going to wake up and realise that a real God would not show such favoritism.

Well if both sides attribute their success to God, then clearly God shows no favoritism given that he helps out both sides, instead of letting one side steamwaltz over the other.

Or perhaps God just loves to watch a more entertaining match and thus creates some artificial tension by letting both sides succeed more than they would otherwise do. After all, a match is more exciting if both teams have some success compared to watching a bunch of overpaid beefcakes fumble about.

Or maybe its just player superstition, thinking that thanking God helps them get more successful.

Or maybe its just good showmanship, pretending to be thanking God can make you look like a nicer guy to the audience, especially if the audience is very susceptible to little gestures that signify piety and humility.

Thought that might be it.

Returning to the above, so, what about John Nash's "zero sum"? Does that play into any of this?

I am not familiar with that, although I have heard of it. Are you suggesting that religious belief could fall under the auspices of Game Theory?

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Reality Internet Personality